Author Topic: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.  (Read 14430 times)

Offline White Lotus

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I am puzzled in a way, this is since the majority accord with the heart sutra and say that there is nothing to attain or be attained in enlightenment... that normative awareness is enlightenment/awakening. on the other hand one or two affirm that there is an awakened mind that is very awake.

is awakening the awareness that all is illusory, and actually experiencing that. realizing that in order to be awake one must recognise the dreamlike quality of reality/awareness, that in a way awakening is realizing that one is asleep, or in the dreamlike state of maya.

or... becoming vividly awake, at least on one occasion, or perhaps permanently and seeing the solidity of all things.

yun men said that it should be left to posterity that everyone is liberated. ie that in a way, that which is most special is in many ways completely normal. that this supremely normal existence is in itself awakening when one realizes this.

any ideas.

vivid state, or rigpa, mundane awareness?

best wishes, Tom.

Offline francis

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any ideas.

vivid state, or rigpa, mundane awareness?

best wishes, Tom.


"original mind"
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline swampflower

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Endless dance
Now here
Now gone
This empty now
So sublime
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline White Lotus

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2011, 11:57:31 am »
Original mind could be seen as this mind just as it is... this is it. right here right now, this is it.

or original mind could be something that one after searching can see for oneself.

in Zen it is clear from the majority of teaching that ultimately "ordinary mind is the way." the ultimate. and yet there is teaching of being very awake. i would speculate that this state of heightened awareness is a temporary state, but i am not sure.

observing the mind, i see emptiness?, focusing on it is slippery like skating on ice, nothing to hold onto... this is why it is difficult to focus mind on mind, like the eye that observes seeing itself. mind seeing mind.

is it awakening 'to' the mind (seeing its nature), or awakening 'of' the mind? possibly both?

Endless dance
Now here
Now gone
This empty now
So sublime

emptiness dropped,
dancing ended, the dancing begins.
will it ever end?

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2011, 12:02:12 pm »
Original mind could be seen as this mind just as it is... this is it. right here right now, this is it.

or original mind could be something that one after searching can see for oneself.
My own take on this is that 'enlightenment' (whatever that is) is retroactive. Once you become enlightened you can see that it was there all the time. Before you become enlightened, you can't see it at all.

I've not had that as a teaching, I just made it up. It is my interpretation of the story of Asanga and Maitreya. So if it a valid interpretation it would be more the Yogacara/Shentong view than Madhyamaka.

But it sounds good! :wink1:
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 12:18:41 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Yeshe

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2011, 12:16:24 pm »
Original mind could be seen as this mind just as it is... this is it. right here right now, this is it.

or original mind could be something that one after searching can see for oneself.
My own take on this is that 'enlightenment', whatever that is, is retroactive. Once you become enlightened you can see that it was there all the time. Before you become enlightened, you can't see it at all.

I have not had that as a teaching, I just made it up. It is my interpretation of the story of Asanga and Maitreya. So if it a valid interpretation it would be more the Yogacara/Shentong view than Madhyamaka.

But it sounds good! :wink1:

Yes, whether the path is revealtory or developmental, it comes to the same - being awake to the ultimate truth and only then seeing all things as they really exist.

It takes faith, IMHO, to believe it to be attainable and strive towards what we cannot sense or fully internalise.

Sometimes I think of it through the '3 Poisons' of Anger, Desirous Attachment, and Ignorance (of the nature of Emptiness).

We can make progress in reducing our anger and attachment as we are.

However, once there is a realisaiton that there is no 'Self' and 'other' then logically we cannot be attached to it, to its objects, or become angry because of it.

I think that probably applies to Yogacara/Shentong as well as Madhyamaka Prasangika.


Offline francis

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2011, 02:12:26 am »
Original mind could be seen as this mind just as it is... this is it. right here right now, this is it.

or original mind could be something that one after searching can see for oneself.

in Zen it is clear from the majority of teaching that ultimately "ordinary mind is the way." the ultimate. and yet there is teaching of being very awake. i would speculate that this state of heightened awareness is a temporary state, but i am not sure.

observing the mind, i see emptiness?, focusing on it is slippery like skating on ice, nothing to hold onto... this is why it is difficult to focus mind on mind, like the eye that observes seeing itself. mind seeing mind.

is it awakening 'to' the mind (seeing its nature), or awakening 'of' the mind? possibly both?


Hi White Lotus, good comments.

I think there are a couple of subjects here. The first is the concept of original mind. The second of being very awake and observing the mind seems to be concerned with meditation.  I’ll add a few comments on original mind, however observing the mind and heightened awareness come with meditation practice. Meditation is not my forte, but I’m working on it ;)  

My take on original mind is it’s another way of describing anatta (empty of self). The original self is the core of your being, before conditioning, free from defilements (ie. Buddha nature).  Well that’s my take, others explain it better:

Huineng

Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
The bright mirror is also not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing —
Where could any dust be attracted?

One night, Hongren received Huineng in his abode, and expounded the Diamond Sutra to him. When he came to the passage, "to use the mind yet be free from any attachment," Huineng came to great enlightenment—that all dharmas are inseparable from the self nature. He exclaimed, "How amazing that the self nature is originally pure! How amazing that the self nature is unborn and undying! How amazing that the self nature is inherently complete! How amazing that the self nature neither moves nor stays! How amazing that all dharmas come from this self nature!"

Hongren told Huineng, "If one recognizes the original mind and the original nature, he is called a great man, teacher of gods and humans, and a Buddha." He passed the robe and begging bowl as a symbol of the Dharma Seal of Sudden Enlightenment to Huineng.

For more information, I suggest reading Buddha Nature one of a number of articles by Ken McLeod, who I’m currently reading.

After the awareness that there is nothing other than mind
Comes the understanding that mind, too, is nothing itself.
The intelligent know that these two understandings are not things.
And then, not holding onto even this knowledge, they come to rest in the realm of totality.


cheers :)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 02:18:01 am by francis, Reason: link problems »
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline White Lotus

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2011, 05:30:47 am »
My own take on this is that 'enlightenment' (whatever that is) is retroactive. Once you become enlightened you can see that it was there all the time. Before you become enlightened, you can't see it at all.

thats most certainly the case with Own/Original/Buddha nature! very clearly put.


Yes, whether the path is revealtory or developmental, it comes to the same - being awake to the ultimate truth and only then seeing all things as they really exist.
seeing Buddha nature one sees the continuity of all things, their oneness, and yet it is hard to describe... is it emptiness, it seems to be. the emptiness of all things. honestly its beyond description and yet, youve got it even now as you read this post. normal mind is buddha nature, normal perception, normal awareness. everyday mind is the site of enlightenment. extrordinary things happen within the ordinary field of mundane mind. if the middle way can be perceived, this perception is also within the mundane awareness. (its truly extrodinary).

After the awareness that there is nothing other than mind
Comes the understanding that mind, too, is nothing itself.
The intelligent know that these two understandings are not things.
And then, not holding onto even this knowledge, they come to rest in the realm of totality.


very nice! whose teaching?

best wishes, Tom.

Offline White Lotus

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2011, 05:37:09 am »
im beginning to think that ordinary mind is buddha nature and know that this ordinary mind is every day and yet within it we grow and perceive extrodinary things such as the middle way. revelatory truths and mundane truth coexist.

best wishes, Tom.

the bad news is that the mind must be developed in order to perceive the remarkable. the good news is that many of these treasures are simply hidden in the ordinary mind and are as every day as a glass of tap water.

Offline White Lotus

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2011, 06:53:52 am »
I want to just say, in ending this thread, if indeed this is its end that i believe seeing buddha nature, the emptiness of ordinary mind (the emptiness of this buddha nature) as very important. if not utterly crucial. i also believe that the dharma eye spoken of in Zen is the seeing of original nature.

i am concerned that some of the things i have said in this thread may detract from the utter importance of seeing buddha nature. (in my own experience, for whatever thats worth.)

best wishes, Tom.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2011, 11:12:54 am »
I want to just say, in ending this thread, if indeed this is its end that i believe seeing buddha nature, the emptiness of ordinary mind (the emptiness of this buddha nature) as very important. if not utterly crucial. i also believe that the dharma eye spoken of in Zen is the seeing of original nature.

i am concerned that some of the things i have said in this thread may detract from the utter importance of seeing buddha nature. (in my own experience, for whatever thats worth.)
Just a linguistic/semantic clarification; Buddha Nature can never be "seen". It cannot become an object of consciousness, anymore than your retina can "see" itself, although it is what you use to see anything and everything else.

However if you remove the adventitious defilements through meditation practices it can find full expression and thus be "realized".

But those are all just words anyway... :twocents:
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 11:17:57 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline catmoon

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2011, 07:48:06 pm »
Just a linguistic/semantic clarification; Buddha Nature can never be "seen". It cannot become an object of consciousness, anymore than your retina can "see" itself, although it is what you use to see anything and everything else.

However if you remove the adventitious defilements through meditation practices it can find full expression and thus be "realized".

But those are all just words anyway... :twocents:

Hmm. What about seeing the Buddha Nature of others? Is that possible?
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2011, 08:17:37 pm »
Just a linguistic/semantic clarification; Buddha Nature can never be "seen". It cannot become an object of consciousness, anymore than your retina can "see" itself, although it is what you use to see anything and everything else.

However if you remove the adventitious defilements through meditation practices it can find full expression and thus be "realized".

But those are all just words anyway... :twocents:

Hmm. What about seeing the Buddha Nature of others? Is that possible?
I am under the impression no. "Not eve a Buddha can see mind", etc.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline White Lotus

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2011, 07:42:58 am »
im sorry to sound cheeky Santamonicaj, but i can see mind, it is all things, and logically speaking this 'all things' is completely nothing. i am a sleep walker, that knows he is dreaming. i see the mind within me and i see the mind around me. the same. one. i have quite literally seen mind, but it is very difficult to focus on, perhaps this is since it is nothing.

when i speak to a person, i can see that he is one with me, he is perfect mind, pure buddha nature... he exists as a dream. i am a dream and i know this! there is no difference in the dreams i sleep and in my waking moment. all a dream.

there are many realizations, but as Wei Lang (Hui Neng) the sixth patriarch taught, one cannot rely on any form of practice or realization, however profound it may be. true Buddhism is without realization. it is to realize that ultimately there is nothing to realize. the base of the mountain and its summit, are both empty. when one gets to the top of a 100 ft pole, one comes back down it. the beginning is the end, the end is found in the beginning. its just that after journeying one has changed, but profoundly, nothing is realized, not even nothing.

best wishes, Tom.

Offline Ben Yuan

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Re: Please can the method behing Madhyamaka be explained in simple terms.
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2011, 06:10:10 pm »
Hi,

That's an interesting infusion of Yogacara with Madhyamika Tom, in fact, it is interesting that you mention Huineng because he is often credited with uniting the two approaches, even though he himself was 'coming' from the second perspective, i.e. Southern Ch'an.

I.e. that the ineffable reality posited by the Madhyamika is the same as the the 'pure buddha nature' or consciousness/mind. With Madhyamika only, there is no mind.

Out of curiosity, in what language is 'Wei Lang' the name of Hui Neng?

 :namaste:

 


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