Author Topic: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered  (Read 4016 times)

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2016, 08:36:50 pm »
I think you are muddling up traditions here.

The Heart Sutra describes the Bodhisattava using prajna wisdom to see the emptiness of the aggregates, and then attaining enlightenment.  Emptiness means empty of inherent existence, ie dependent on conditions.

You have misunderstood the concept of "empty of inherent existence"

"empty of inherent existence" is used to describe the 6 Sense-organs, 6 Gunas and 6 consciousness , which are like mirages that although appear realistic but in fact have no inherent existence.

The concept of "empty of inherent existence" is not used to explain Nirvana or emptiness or

Nirvana or emptiness or means "without any earthly existence"

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2016, 10:27:36 pm »
Bodhisattava is no longer dependent on eyes, ears, nose...brain as the source of knowing, so he no longer sees things.  No form, no shape, no image to see.  So Nirvana is called "emptiness"

"emptiness" means "without any earthly existence (caused by hallucinations)"


Sorry but your interpretation doesn't make sense, it would mean the Bodhisattva gaining perfect vision and then getting run over by a bus when crossing the road.

"Sunyata" means lacking independent existence, not lacking "earthly existence".

This new translation of the Heart Sutra by Thich Nhat Hanh will hopefully make things clearer for you.
http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

Another translation of the Heart Sutra here: http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 10:36:37 pm by Spiny Norman »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2016, 10:30:30 pm »
Bodhisattava is no longer dependent on eyes, ears, nose...brain as the source of knowing, so he no longer sees things.  No form, no shape, no image to see.  So Nirvana is called "emptiness"

"emptiness" means "without any earthly existence (caused by hallucinations)"


Sorry but your interpretation doesn't make sense, it would mean the Bodhisattva gaining perfect vision and then getting run over by a bus when crossing the road.

"Sunyata" means lacking independent existence, not lacking "earthly existence".

This new translation of the Heart Sutra by Thich Nhat Hanh will hopefully make things clearer for you.
http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

Another translation of the Heart Sutra here: http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf

don't need to refer to other people's translations
because you all, don't understand that the word "emptiness or Sunyata" in fact has TWO different meanings, depending on the subject that "emptiness" refers to.

When emptiness refers to any dharma, whose birth is dependent on conditions, then here emptiness means "unreal, empty of true inherent existence"

When emptiness refers to Nirvana or ultimate Reality or anything whose existence is not dependent on conditions, then here emptiness means "empty of all earthly existence that is created by conditions"

In the short Heart Sutra, the 1st to 6th "emptiness" is used in combination with Five Aggregates, so these "emptiness" mean "unreal; lack of true inherent existence"

The 7th "emptiness" no longer means the same, because this emptiness refers to the state of ultimate Reality or Nirvana.   The state of ultimate Reality is empty of anything that is created by conditions; empty of all earthly existence.
(No eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodyskin, brain; No forms, sound, smell.....NO Sight-perception...)

The following is evidence that the word "emptiness or " has TWO different meanings, depending on what it refers to:





« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 10:59:09 pm by serendipity »

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2016, 10:51:47 pm »
Bodhisattava is no longer dependent on eyes, ears, nose...brain as the source of knowing, so he no longer sees things.  No form, no shape, no image to see.  So Nirvana is called "emptiness"

"emptiness" means "without any earthly existence (caused by hallucinations)"


Sorry but your interpretation doesn't make sense, it would mean the Bodhisattva gaining perfect vision and then getting run over by a bus when crossing the road.

"Sunyata" means lacking independent existence, not lacking "earthly existence".

This new translation of the Heart Sutra by Thich Nhat Hanh will hopefully make things clearer for you.
http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

Another translation of the Heart Sutra here: http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf

don't need to refer to other people's translations
because you all, don't understand that the word "emptiness or Sunyata" in fact has TWO different meanings, depending on the subject that "emptiness" refers to.

When emptiness refers to any dharma, whose birth is dependent on conditions, then here emptiness means "unreal, empty of true inherent existence"

When emptiness refers to Nirvana or ultimate Reality or anything whose existence is not dependent on conditions, then here emptiness means "empty of all earthly existence that is created by conditions"

In the short Heart Sutra, the 1st to 6th "emptiness" is used in combination with Five Aggregates, so these "emptiness" mean "unreal; lack of true inherent existence"

The 7th "emptiness" no longer means the same, because this emptiness refers to the state of ultimate Reality or Nirvana.   The state of ultimate Reality is empty of anything that is created by conditions; empty of all earthly existence.
(No eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodyskin, brain; No forms, sound, smell.....NO Sight-perception...)

The following is evidence that the word "emptiness or " has TWO different meanings, depending on what it refers to:




I'm not seeing "evidence", just unsupported assertions, and posting in some untranslated stuff from God knows where certainly doesn't help your case.  And by the way, Nirvana is not "ultimate reality" because the Heart Sutra states: "Attainment too is emptiness".

More translations of the Heart Sutra here:  http://www.dharmanet.org/HeartSutra.htm

Maybe you could try basing an argument on what the Heart Sutra actually says.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 10:54:39 pm »
Sorry but your interpretation doesn't make sense, it would mean the Bodhisattva gaining perfect vision and then getting run over by a bus when crossing the road.
the fact that "the outside world doesn't exist" is a difficult concept to grasp.
It doesn't mean that Buddha no longer sees what the sentients see.

The buddhist sutra says that, to a liberated person, the "outside world" will become "inside world", which exists inside of him.  So Buddha can still see what normal people see, and knows what is going on.

When the "outside world" becomes "inside world", the concept of time and distance will both disappear, because everything is in one same point, that is me=the universe; the universe=me






Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2016, 11:01:47 pm »
When the "outside world" becomes "inside world", the concept of time and distance will both disappear, because everything is in one same point, that is me=the universe; the universe=me

Judging distance is a key factor in not getting run over by a bus.

What you're asserting sounds like a new-age version of Buddhist teaching, more like Hinduism.

But again, let's see an argument based on what the Heart Sutra actually says.  I have posted a number of different translations for you to quote from.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 11:04:12 pm by Spiny Norman »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2016, 11:16:24 pm »
Judging distance is a key factor in not getting run over by a bus.

What you're asserting sounds like a new-age version of Buddhist teaching, more like Hinduism.

But again, let's see an argument based on what the Heart Sutra actually says.  I have posted a number of different translations for you to quote from.
I am the Only person in the world who preach TRUE Buddhism

ALL the other people have misinterpreted Buddhism

What I read is one of the most ancient version of buddhist sutras, the verson in traditional chinese.
I have less chance of misunderstanding than you who read the modern version of sutras

Have you heard of a saying: "lost meaning in translation"?



 

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2016, 11:20:48 pm »
Judging distance is a key factor in not getting run over by a bus.

What you're asserting sounds like a new-age version of Buddhist teaching, more like Hinduism.

But again, let's see an argument based on what the Heart Sutra actually says.  I have posted a number of different translations for you to quote from.
I am the Only person in the world who preach TRUE Buddhism


Oh, well, you must be right then.   :wacky: 
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2016, 12:00:34 am »
I believe that there must be people here who read traditional chinese,
when they see the citations from various sutras, they will then believe that I am seriously preaching TRUE Buddhism




The Heart Sutra doesn't say the universe doesn't exist, it says that the aggregates are dependently arising and therefore "empty".

Other sutras did say that "the universe doesn't exist"
The Heart sutra says so as well

The Heart Sutra says "No eyes, no ears, no nose...no brain..."
When you don't have the 6 sense-organs, you don't perceive the existence of the world
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 12:28:58 am by serendipity »

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2016, 12:27:01 am »
I believe that there must be people here who read traditional chinese,
when they see the citations from various sutras, they will then believe that I am seriously preaching TRUE Buddhism




The Heart Sutra doesn't say the universe doesn't exist, it says that the aggregates are dependently arising and therefore "empty".

Other sutras did say that "the universe doesn't exist"
The Heart sutra says so as well

The Heart Sutra says "No eyes, no ears, no nose...no brain..."
When you don't have the 6 sense-organs, you don't perceive the existence of the world


Which other sutras say "the universe doesn't exist"?   Please provide the relevant passages, properly referenced to a reliable source.  Please quote brief relevant passages, do NOT just dump in whole sutras.

Just posting in some Chinese text is no use at all here.  We would need a reliable English translation before looking at what it means.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 12:57:07 am by Spiny Norman »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2016, 01:22:23 am »
Which other sutras say "the universe doesn't exist"?   Please provide the relevant passages, properly referenced to a reliable source.  Please quote brief relevant passages, do NOT just dump in whole sutras.

Just posting in some Chinese text is no use at all here.  We would need a reliable English translation before looking at what it means.

The Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter I
"Because of folly they do not understand that all things are like maya, like the reflection of the moon in water....."

Chapter III
" I teach that the multitudiousness of objects have no reality in themselves but are only seen of mind and, therefore, are of the nature of maya and a dream. "


http://www.purifymind.com/LankavataraSutra.htm
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 01:33:24 am by serendipity »

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2016, 01:33:41 am »
Which other sutras say "the universe doesn't exist"?   Please provide the relevant passages, properly referenced to a reliable source.  Please quote brief relevant passages, do NOT just dump in whole sutras.

Just posting in some Chinese text is no use at all here.  We would need a reliable English translation before looking at what it means.

The Lankavatara Sutra
Because of folly they do not understand that all things are like maya, like the reflection of the moon in water,

http://www.purifymind.com/LankavataraSutra.htm


That's a ridiculously long sutra, please indicate exactly where that line appears.  "Maya" is a Hindu concept and it looks incongruous in a Buddhist text - are you sure this is a correct translation?

More importantly, please provide a reliable English translation for the Chinese text you posted earlier.  The thread is about the Heart Sutra, we don't want to get bogged down in what I suspect will be an inconclusive discussion about what the Lankavatara Sutra means.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 03:18:18 am by Spiny Norman »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline stillpointdancer

  • Enlightenment through insight
  • Member
  • Posts: 456
  • Dancing at the Still Point describes my meditation
    • View Profile
    • Enlightenment for Grown Ups
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2016, 03:51:32 am »


This new translation of the Heart Sutra by Thich Nhat Hanh will hopefully make things clearer for you.
http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/


An interesting translation, but I think it loses by following the recent trend towards dropping 'form is only emptiness, emptiness only form'. I understand that it can lead to misinterpretation- but for me the cost of excluding it is too high. Of course, the danger is that people drop into nihilism and think that everything is an hallucination. Which is where the nose-tweaking in the commentary is kind of fun.

In walking the narrow path between nothingness and wrong understanding of the permanence of things, the Heart Sutra is a tricky read, no matter which translation is used. Used as a mantra, 'form is only emptiness....' is as powerful for me as 'go beyond, go right beyond, go furthest beyond' and I used it as such for many years. Used as a guide to the dangers of nihilism, it's perhaps even trickier. If I had to change the line I would use, 'There is neither form nor not form, neither emptiness nor not emptiness', in the same way that I frequently use, 'There is neither a God nor not a God'.

For me, the idea that the Heart Sutra is merely to clear up the emptiness problem rather takes away from such a marvelous piece of writing. I see it as the ultimate look-back from a state of enlightenment; a reverse engineering of how to get to an enlightened state. To go beyond every 'thing', where 'emptiness' and 'hallucinations' are 'things' too. A piece of writing that I bring to mind every single day.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5228
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2016, 12:44:58 pm »
An interesting translation, but I think it loses by following the recent trend towards dropping 'form is only emptiness, emptiness only form'. I understand that it can lead to misinterpretation- but for me the cost of excluding it is too high. Of course, the danger is that people drop into nihilism and think that everything is an hallucination. Which is where the nose-tweaking in the commentary is kind of fun.

I would say it's essentially about conditionality, aka dependent arising, which means our experience is not as substantial as we tend to assume.  In the suttas dependent arising is the middle way between existence and non-existence.

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline serendipity

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The Heart Sutra; The code has just been deciphered
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2016, 02:48:06 pm »
More importantly, please provide a reliable English translation for the Chinese text you posted earlier.  The thread is about the Heart Sutra, we don't want to get bogged down in what I suspect will be an inconclusive discussion about what the Lankavatara Sutra means.

Buddhism isn't just about dependent arising or cause and effect...

The Lankavatara Sutra is one of the very important sutras in buddhist studies, which reveals many secrets of the relationship between each sentient and the universe; and how the so-called 8 consciousnesses work.  Don't say that you know about Buddhism if you haven't read The Lankavatara Sutra.

The english version (done by Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki) that I've shown you is the only version you can find tody, and is used by people around the world, who want to study The Lankavatara Sutra.

The Lankavatara Sutra reveals that the universe is purely created by your own mind.  Away from MIND, there is no such thing as the universe.  MIND is the creator of everything, including the universe.  MIND is also the cause of reincarnation.

Normally, you need a teacher in order to understand the Lankavatara Sutra.

http://www.huzheng.org/en/mtlee/
The Lankavatara Sutra
"the world has no self nature, that it is un-born, that it is like a passing cloud, like an imaginary wheel made by a revolving firebrand, like the castle of the Gandharvas, like the moon reflected in the ocean, like a vision, a mirage, a dream"
------------------------------------------------------

The Heart Sutra circles around the concept of "emptiness",
Buddha uses "emptiness" to explain the unreality of the World

« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 05:20:33 pm by serendipity »

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal