The six perfections

[ground]

But as we know, people attached to one self automatically imitate their teacher and on this way he would not free them, but make them decalcomanias. *smile*

Don't know what people do. In the sphere of knowing "teacher" is just a helpful dependent arising.
Imitating also may be a helpful arising because in order to imitate you have to display what lurks as potentiality thus manifesting what actually is already a potential.

As we might know is that the eightfold path leads to liberation, while the paramis perfection without following the eightfold path would easily lead to endless rounds.

Without fully understanding both, the "eightfold path" and the "paramis" may lead to endless rounds.

Kind regards

[Hanzze]

But as we know, people attached to one self automatically imitate their teacher and on this way he would not free them, but make them decalcomanias. *smile*

Don't know what people do. In the sphere of knowing "teacher" is just a helpful dependent arising.
Imitating also may be a helpful arising because in order to imitate you have to display what lurks as potentiality thus manifesting what actually is already a potential.

This story is maybe useful here:

Universal Love

 
Many religious leaders preach that their is the only way to salvation. I listen with a smile, but I do not agree.
Two thousand five hundred years ago, the Buddha told his disciple Kalama,

Do not accept anything simply because it has
been said by your teacher.
Or because it has been written in your sacred book,
Or because it has been believed by many,
Or because it has been handed down by your ancestors.
Accept and live only according to what will enable
you to see truth face to face.

At our Providence temple we have a good friend called “Bodhisattva”, who teaches English to the monks. Bodhisattva is a wise and patient teacher, but he also has a great challenge - he stutters when he speaks.
One day Bodhisattva was giving the monks a lesson. “H-h-house,” he said. And all of the monks repeated exactly, “H-h-house!"Bodhisattva was startled. “N-n-no!” he said. And all of the monks said “N-n-no!” in unison. Bodhisattva showed the monks the way to enlightenment. Truth is not just what we hear. We cannot know truth from teachers, books, or dogma only. The Buddha advises us to test the truth on the touchstone of our experience. Truth can be know only through our own mindful experience.
No religion is higher than truth. Our goal as human is to realize our universal brotherhood and sisterhood. I pray that this realization will be spread throughout our troubled world. I pray that we can learn to support each other in our quest for peace.

from Step by Step by Maha Ghosananda

As we might know is that the eightfold path leads to liberation, while the paramis perfection without following the eightfold path would easily lead to endless rounds.

Without fully understanding both, the "eightfold path" and the "paramis" may lead to endless rounds.

Kind regards

One would need to fix the paramis to a good amount fist to join the eightfold path. There is no need to understand the paramis to work on them as a resultant while trying to complete the eightfold path. The eightfold path incl. the improving system, while walking on the paramis path needs many ideas and speculations. Its more an explaining how things coming together and for sure good to know it when one teaches. *smile*

Its like selling water bottles to make people depend rather then to show them the spring.

[ground]

Its like selling water bottles to make people depend rather then to show them the spring.

Don't forget that they really believe that their path leads to buddhahood in the same way you believe that the 8fold path leads to arhatship.

Kind regards

[Hanzze]

Believe... what about just following that what the Buddha had taught and follow whats comes out of own realizations of the Dharma?

One needs to remember, that on some places there are not the climatic requires to generally adopt the eightfold path in its whole and that might grow to alternatives which grow easily to habits, which are not necessary to adopt to come back to the essence. *smile*

Not eightfold path, not Buddha Dharma.

[ground]

Believe... what about just following that what the Buddha had taught and follow whats comes out of own realizations of the Dharma?

Well you cannot categorically negate realizations in the Mahayana. If you do then that's your belief only.

Not eightfold path, not Buddha Dharma.

The Mahayana has the eightfold path. Not as understood by you. But it has it.

Kind regards

[Hanzze]

Believe... what about just following that what the Buddha had taught and follow whats comes out of own realizations of the Dharma?

Well you cannot categorically negate realizations in the Mahayana. If you do then that's your belief only.

Mahayana is even able to have own realizations? I dint think so. *smile*

Not eightfold path, not Buddha Dharma.

The Mahayana has the eightfold path. Not as understood by you. But it has it.
Kind regards

There are many using it, but many who use different things to have an own label. But maybe I did not came in contact with a different eightfold path with should be difficult to compare with the eightfold path. If one likes to stay in Samara, the eightfold path is not good, never develop it. You would be lost in liberation. *smile* How selfish!

[Spiny le Norman]

But if his idea is that one could not join the eightfold path before having fulfilled the perfections his way is maybe a good one to bring people their.

In the Pali Cannon there are 10 perfections, there is an equivalence with the 6 perfections of Mahayana Buddhism.  The 6 perfections and 8-fold path are both valid expressions of the Buddhist path.

CP

[Hanzze]

So its a matter of expression to walk the Path of Buddha Dharma? *smile* Form my understanding fulfillment of paramis is an additional approach to what the Buddha him self had taught. The idea of striving to Buddhahood and private Buddha also exists among the Theravadins.

If you follow the discussion, the eternal question to come here was, why would a Bodhisattva makes other follow him if he would have the possibility to lead other to liberation on a different way he walks. With other words, why does a captain explain why he stays on the sinking ship till the last passenger is rescued rather then to just rescue them without justify and advertise his motivation. He would not have saved anybody when he makes them captain as well. They would just discuss who is the better captain on the sinking ship. *smile*

Well its heart touching and heroic if you imagine the captains holding each other out of compassion and courage and sinking into the see.  *smile* Who doesn't want to be a hero.

[ground]

Perhaps one should keep in mind that in tibetan buddhism (and the Lama Tsongkhapa I have quoted here is actually the father of the tibetan Gelug sect) all that I have quoted here (sutrayana) is actually regarded to be incomplete if the practitioner does not enter the tantra vehicle (tantrayana) in which case an alleged practice duration of 3 kalpas until buddhahood (sutrayana) is replaced by an alleged practice duration of 1 to 7 lifes until buddhahood (tantrayana)


Kind regards

[ground]

Anyway, let's go on ...

The fixed number of perfections based on the three trainings

The nature of the training in ethical discipline [the first of the three trainings] is the practice of ethical discipline. The precondition of the training in ethical discipline is generosity, because once you have generosity that is indifferent to resources, you can properly adopt an ethical discipline. The aid to the training in ethical discipline is patience, because the patience of not retaliating when scolded, etc. safeguards your properly adopted ethical discipline. Meditative stabilization is the training of mind [the second training, the training of meditative concentration], and wisdom is the training in wisdom [the third training]. As for joyous perseverance, it is included in all three trainings. So the perfections are fixed at six in number.

Lama Tsongkhapa (LRCM)

[Hanzze]

Perhaps one should keep in mind that in tibetan buddhism (and the Lama Tsongkhapa I have quoted here is actually the father of the tibetan Gelug sect) all that I have quoted here (sutrayana) is actually regarded to be incomplete if the practitioner does not enter the tantra vehicle (tantrayana) in which case an alleged practice duration of 3 kalpas until buddhahood (sutrayana) is replaced by an alleged practice duration of 1 to 7 lifes until buddhahood (tantrayana)

Kind regards

Whooo! That's a deal. Where can I get that? *smile* 3 kalpas for the ordinary, now only 1 to 7 lifes for you! If you take it now you will get also a personal freaky tibetan name, a email address and a blog page for free. *smile*
Is there anybody who really would take another deal knowing about this? *smile*

Knowing this, I am no more interested in practicing this low teachings of perfections. Is there any topic regarding higher teachings and tantric?

[ground]

Perhaps one should keep in mind that in tibetan buddhism (and the Lama Tsongkhapa I have quoted here is actually the father of the tibetan Gelug sect) all that I have quoted here (sutrayana) is actually regarded to be incomplete if the practitioner does not enter the tantra vehicle (tantrayana) in which case an alleged practice duration of 3 kalpas until buddhahood (sutrayana) is replaced by an alleged practice duration of 1 to 7 lifes until buddhahood (tantrayana)

Kind regards

Whooo! That's a deal. Where can I get that? *smile* 3 kalpas for the ordinary, now only 1 to 7 lifes for you! If you take it now you will get also a personal freaky tibetan name, a email address and a blog page for free. *smile*
Is there anybody who really would take another deal knowing about this? *smile*

Knowing this, I am no more interested in practicing this low teachings of perfections. Is there any topic regarding higher teachings and tantric?

May I remind you that you have applied the same kind of time/duration thinking as an argument against (sutra-)Mahayana and in favor of your theravadan Hanzze-yana?

Ignorance is ignorance whether it has thervadan or tantric "color" does not matter

[Hanzze]

What is Sutra-Mahayana and especial what is Hanzze-yana? *smile* How could I argument against it as well as for it? Maybe its a personal idea. *smile* Its just a windmill, Don, its just a windmill! Let go on further on our journey with ease, we will find Mara one day.

[ground]

What is Sutra-Mahayana ...

It is the Mahayana path based on sutra teachings (also called sutrayana) in contrast to tantra-Mahayana (also called vajrayana or tantrayana) which is based on tantra teachings.

... what is Hanzze-yana?

It is Theravada colored by the obsessions of a person who appeared in dozens of buddhist internet forums under the name "Hanzze" arguing against Mahayana practitioners' views when he appeared in Mahayana forums and arguing against Theravada practitioners' views when he appeared in (a) Theravada forum(s) and arguing against all views when he appeared in mixed forums.

Kind regards

[Hanzze]

Do you like to say that we would find Mara in our self? *smile* I never thought about this before.