Author Topic: There is No Buddha Apart from the Mind  (Read 2115 times)

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: There is No Buddha Apart from the Mind
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2018, 11:01:39 am »

Whatever their practice is, it won’t matter in the least.

That hasn’t been my experience at all. In fact, without meditation practice there is no realization -- or even flash experiences of insight. One will forever feel apart.

I was comparing Pure Land with Zen as paths and saying it wouldn't matter which when one experiences realisation. Although the two practices differ the results are reportedly the same. (I’m playing an ambassador for peace here, since there seems to be some competitive animosity between posters of Zen and Pure Land comments.) If they’re not the same, one of them can’t be “right”

There’s a saying, (if we can take a "saint" to be an enlightened mind):  “If two philosophers agree, one of them isn’t a philosopher. If two saints disagree, one of them is not a saint”.

As for no realisation without meditation, I’m not so sure. The issue may be whether one recognises the experience and can make good of it. I think therefore instruction on the subject and meditation practice is necessary to understand and integrate realisation to avoid it simply becoming lost or subsumed.  There are examples I’ve read of enlightened experience/understanding in untrained people (and I’ve been scrabbling around trying to rediscover some, without success, but there is a Japanese word for them).

And "my mind being apart from Buddha Mind" is really a statement about the reality (for myself) of being in a different “state” post meditation when, as Pixie's quote suggests: “incoming defilements” transform or refract the pure luminosity of mind.

Recognition of this refraction allows the vision of the world to be like “… a bubble, a phantasm, a magic show”. The uninstructed or non meditator will be oblivious of this, having no other experience to compare normal experience with, ...

Perhaps.

I think it’s great that Buddhism has such a variety of practices, but they are sometimes confused with one another. Japanese Zen Buddhism and Pure land Buddhism are very different practices and are even somewhat competitive in Japan, where Pure Land has more adherents than zen. Zen emphasizes vigorous sitting meditation and samadhi, while Pure Land practice is primarily the reciting (nembutsu) of the name of Amitabha Buddha over and over, either out-loud or silently. Whether the results are the same is beside the point – different practices will appeal to different people.

As for realization without meditation -- I was speaking of my own practice, where the deep connection between meditation and awakening is very clear to me. I think anyone who sincerely practices sitting meditation will, over time, recognize that connection. However, I don’t see such a difference, or break, “post meditation.” Samadhi and realization are just as likely off the cushion, but are still the result of time spent practicing.

I agree that random enlightening experiences without training are real, but they are more haphazard and not so easily replicated.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 12:36:51 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: There is No Buddha Apart from the Mind
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2018, 01:22:48 pm »
Of course the fact they are different practices doesn't preclude combining them -- as in this from Wikipedia on mixing Pure Land practice and sitting meditation --

Quote
In Chinese Buddhism, there is a related practice called the "dual path of Chan and Pure Land cultivation", which is also called the "dual path of emptiness and existence." As taught by Nan Huai-Chin, the name of Amitābha is recited slowly, and the mind is emptied out after each repetition. When idle thoughts arise, the name is repeated again to clear them. With constant practice, the mind is able to remain peacefully in emptiness, culminating in the attainment of samādh

The above practice could also be combined with anapanasatti, or awareness of breathing, by repeating the name of Amitabha with an extended outbreath.

Just a thought.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:31:30 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline Chaz

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Re: There is No Buddha Apart from the Mind
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2019, 04:05:17 pm »
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I split of the last chunk of posts to a new topic in Pure Land

Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: There is No Buddha Apart from the Mind
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2019, 10:45:13 pm »
In the thought of Shinran, Amida Buddha is the Dharmakaya itself and the Pure Land is the realm of Nirvana, and both are aspects of the same ultimate truth:

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Simply stated, the Buddha and the Pure Land are, in themselves, the Truth itself. The Buddha is the personal expression of the Truth and, the Pure Land, its impersonal or environmental expression. The personal aspect is again of two phases, negative and positive, or unmanifested and manifested. The unmanifested, formless and personal embodiment of the Truth is ‘Dharma-body’ (dharmakaya), and the manifested embodiment is the ‘Recompensed or Reward Body’ (sambhogakaya; also known as the ‘Enjoyment Body’) and the ‘Transformed Body’ (nirmanakaya). As the Buddha is thus distinguished, so is the Buddha’s Pure Land. The essential characteristic of the Pure Land is Dharma-nature itself (the Land of Dharma-nature), but it is often described in the sutras as a land glorified with various meritorious adornments. This phenomenal aspect of the Pure Land is, in reality, the manifested emodiment of Dharma-nature. We call this aspect of the Pure Land the ‘Rewarded or Recompensed Land’. Again, we have the secondary manifestation of the Land from Dharma-nature called the ‘Transformed Land’ corresponding to the Transformed Buddha.

This is the common division of the Buddha and the Pure Land in Mahayana Buddhism. T’an-luan’s theory of the Two-fold Dharma Body, which appears in his commentary on Vasubandhu’s Discourse on the Pure Land, may add more light on the subject. He states:

Buddhas and Bodhisattvas possess two kinds of Dharma Body: one is a Dharma Body of Dharma-nature and the other is a Dharma Body of Expediency. Depending on the Dharma Body of Dharma-nature, the Dharma Body of Expediency is manifested. Depending on the Dharma Body of Expediency, the Dharma Body of Dharma-nature is revealed. These two Dharma Bodies are different but inseparable, one but distinguishable. (cf. CWS. I, 165)
According to this exposition, the Dharma Body which the Buddhas and the enlightened Bodhisattvas attain has both manifested and unmanifested aspects. Similarly, Tao-cho (562-645), the Fourth Patriarch of Shin Buddhism, distinguished the Pure Land into two: Land with Phenomenal Aspect and Land without Phenomenal Aspect.


As shown above, the Buddha’s Pure Land is the same as Thusness or Dharma-nature in essence. But the dynamic aspect of its existence as the sphere of the Buddha’s activity is of greater significance for us. Because the Pure Land is a transcendental realm standing aloof from all relative, empirical limitations, and delusory discriminations, it is described as ‘inconceivable’. It is beyond the reach of human conception and practice, and it almost appears as a ‘utopia’ far removed from our actual world of experience. From the Buddha’s side, however, the Pure Land is the sphere of His pure activity - the natural and spontaneous activity flowing out from the Supreme Wisdom of Enlightenment.
http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article3875

 


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