Author Topic: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?  (Read 8159 times)

Offline Hanzze

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2013, 03:00:21 am »
BlueSky! *smile*

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Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2013, 03:12:07 am »
Everyone Feel free to read and add your own quotations from the sutras, or ask any questions you may have on the subject.

[Queen Srimala Sutra] 8-9. The Dharmakaya and the Meaning of Void-ness
"Lord, the cessation of suffering is not the destruction of Dharma. Why so? Because the Dharmakaya of the Tathágata is named 'cessation of suffering,' and it is beginning-less, un-create, unborn, undying, free from death; permanent, steadfast, calm, eternal; intrinsically pure, free from all the defilement-store; and accompanied by Buddha natures more numerous than the sands of the Ganges, which are non-discrete, knowing as liberated, and inconceivable. This Dharmakaya of the Tathágata when not free from the store of defilement is referred to as the Tathágata-garbha.


[Nirvana sutra] CHAPTER TWELVE: ON THE TATHAGATA-DHATU
V417.   “Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! Is there Self in the 25 existences or not?" The Buddha said: "O good man! "Self" means "Tathagatagarbha" [Buddha-Womb, Buddha-Embryo, Buddha-Nature]. Every being has Buddha-Nature. This is the Self. Such Self has, from the very beginning, been under cover of innumerable defilements. That is why man cannot see it. O good man! [Imagine that] there is a poor woman here. She has true gold concealed in her house. But none of the people of her house, whether big or small, know of it. But there is a stranger, who, through expediency, says to the poor woman: "I shall employ you. You must now go and weed the land!" The woman answers: "I cannot do this now. If you let my son see where the gold is hidden, I will soon work for you." The man says: "I know the way. I shall point it out to your son." The woman further says: "Nobody of my house, whether big or small, knows [of this]. How can you?" The man says: "I shall now make it clear." The woman says further: "I desire to see. Pray let me." The man digs out the gold that had lain hidden. The woman sees it, is gladdened, and begins to respect that person. O good man! The case is the same with the Buddha-Nature which man has. Nobody can see it. This is analogous to the gold which the poor woman possessed and yet could not see. O good man! I now let persons see the Buddha-Nature that they possess, which is overspread by defilements. This is analogous to the poor woman who cannot see the gold, even though she possesses it. The Tathagata now reveals to all beings the storehouse of Enlightenment, which is the Buddha-Nature, as it is called. If all beings see this, they are gladdened and will take refuge in the Tathagata. The good expedient is the Tathagata, and the poor woman is all the innumerable beings, and the cask of true gold is the Buddha-Nature.   


V424.   O good man! The case is the same with all beings. They do not come near to a good teacher of the Way. So, they cannot see the Buddha-Nature which is within, even though they possess it. And they are reigned over by greed, lust, anger, and ignorance. So they fall into the realms of hell, animals, hungry ghosts, asuras, candalas, and get born in such various houses as Kshatriya, Brahmin, Vaishya and Sudra. The karma generated by the mind leads a person, though born a human, into such lives as a cripple, lame, deaf, blind or dumb person, and to the 25 existences, where such as greed, lust, anger and ignorance reign over the mind, and the person is unable to know of the presence of the Buddha-Nature.
V425.   The wrestler says that the gem has gone away, even though it is [actually] in his body. The same with beings, too. Not having come into contact with a good teacher of the Way, they do not know the Tathagata's hidden treasure and do not study selflessness. For example, even when a person is told of the unholy self, he cannot know the true quality of the Self. The same is true of my disciples. As they do not befriend a good teacher of the Way, they practise non-Self and do not know where it [Self] is. They do not know the true nature of selflessness. How, then, could they know the true nature of the Self itself? Thus, O good man, the Tathagata says that all beings possess the Buddha-Nature. This is like the good doctor's making the wrestler see where the adamantine jewel rests. All these beings are reigned over by innumerable defilements and thus do not know the whereabouts of the Buddha-Nature. When illusion is dispelled, there arises knowledge and brightness. This is like the wrestler's seeing the gem in the mirror. O good man! It is thus the case that what rests undisclosed [latent] in the Tathagata is innumerable and is difficult for beings to think about.


V451.   "O good man! Beings are sterile in fortune and do not come across this grass. The same applies to the Buddha-Nature. As defilement overspreds [them], beings cannot see. For example, the water of the great ocean tastes salty all the same, but it contains in it the best of water, as in the case of milk. Also, the Himalayas are perfect in various virtues and produce various medicines, but there are also poisonous herbs. It is the same with the bodies of all beings. There are the four poisonous serpents, but there is also present the great king of all-wonderful medicine. So-called Buddha-Nature is not something that has been made. Only, it is overspread by defilement. Only a person who thoroughly cuts it away, whether he be a Kshatriya, Brahmin, Vaishya or Sudra sees the Buddha-Nature and attains unsurpassed Enlightenment. For example, should the thunder roll in the sky, the clouds disperse and all the tusks of the elephant will be covered with flower-petals. If there is no thunder, the flowers do not come about. Also, this is as in the case where there is no denotative name. The same is also the case with the Buddha-Nature of [all] beings. It is always overspread by various defilements and is not seen. That is why I say that beings do not possess the Self.                                              V443.   One with Wisdom discriminates things and does not say that all is non-eternal. Why not? Because man possesses the seed of the Buddha-Nature. When non-Self is talked about, common mortals say that there cannot be Self in the Buddhist teaching. One who is wise should know that non-Self is a temporary existence and is not true. Knowing thus, one should not have any doubt. When the hidden Tathagatagarbha is stated as being empty and quiet, common mortals will think of ceasing and extinction. “One who is wise knows that the Tathagata is Eternal and Unchanging.” “If Emancipation is stated to be something like a phantom, common mortals say that the person who attains Emancipation is one who wears away to nothingness; a person with Wisdom thinks that he is a man-lion and that, though he comes and goes, he is Eternal and does not change."


[Nirvana sutra] Chapter Three: On Grief
V134.   the Tathagata teaches and says no-self. This is to adjust beings and because he is aware of the occasion. Such non-self is, as occasion arises, spoken of, and it is [also] said that there is the Self. This is as in the case of the learned Doctor, who knows well the medicinal and non-medicinal qualities of milk. It is not as with common mortals, who might measure the size of their own self. Common mortals and the ignorant may measure the size of their own self and say, 'It is like the size of a thumb, like a mustard seed, or like the size of a mote.' When the Tathagata speaks of Self, in no case are things thus. That is why he says: 'All things have no Self.'
V135.   Even though he has said that all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of the Self, it is not that they are completely/ truly devoid of the Self. What is this Self? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed 'the Self' [atman]. This is as in the case of the great Doctor who well understands the milk medicine. The same is the case with the Tathagata. For the sake of beings, he says "there is the Self in all things" O you the four classes! Learn Dharma thus!"


SN 22.59 
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
Thus it was heard by me. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park of Isipatana near Benares. There, indeed, the Blessed One addressed the group of five monks.
"Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'
"Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since feeling is not-self, therefore feeling leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus.'
"Perception, O monks, is not-self; if perception were self, then perception would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since perception is not-self, therefore, perception leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding perception: 'May my perception be thus, may my perception not be thus.'
"Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to suffering and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.'
"Consciousness, O monks, is not-self; if consciousness were self, then consciousness would not lead to suffering and it should obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since consciousness is not-self, therefore, consciousness leads to suffering and it does not obtain regarding consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus.'


 SN 22.46 Impermanent (2) pg 885
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, form is impermanent.... Feeling is impermanent.... Preception is impermanent.... Volitional formations are impermanent.... Consciousness is impermanent. What is Impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self."
SN 22.68 "Bhikkhu you should abandon desire for whatever is non self"
SN:22.69 "Bhikkhu,you should abandon desire for whatever does not belong to self."


[Nirvana sutra] CHAPTER TWELVE: ON THE TATHAGATA-DHATU
V463.   "Some time later, the Prince who has fled the country returns and becomes King. On ascending the throne, he asks the ministers: 'Have you ever seen the sword?' They reply: 'O great King! Its colour was pure, and it was like an utpala-lotus.' They also answer: 'It was like the horn of a ram.' They further reply: 'It was red and like a fire ball.' They answer,too: 'It was like a black serpent.' Then the King laughs: 'All of you have not, in truth, seen my sword.'
"Noble Son! A Bodhisattva-mahasattva is also like that - he appears in the world and expounds the true nature of the Self. After he has expounded it, he departs, as for example like the prince who takes the wondrous sword and flees to another country. Foolish ordinary people say, 'Everybody has Self! Everybody has Self", like the poor man who, lodging at another's house, cries out, 'The sword! The sword!' Sravakas and pratyekabuddhas ask people, 'What attributes does the Self have?', to which they reply, 'I have seen the attributes of the Self - it is the size of a thumb' or they say, 'It is like [a grain of rice], or 'It is like [a grain of] millet', or there are some who say, 'It is the Self's attribute to abide within the heart, burning like the sun'. In this manner people do not know the nature of the Self, [just] as, for example, the various ministers do not know the nature of the sword.
V464.   While a Bodhisattva discourses thus about the quality of the Self, ordinary people do not but impute various false concepts to the Self, just as when asked about the attributes of the sword the [ministers] reply that it is like the horn of a ram. These ordinary people generate false views in succession from one on to the other. In order to eliminate such false views, the Tathagata reveals and discourses on the non-existence of a self, just as when the prince tells his various ministers that there is no such sword in his treasury. Noble Son, the True Self that the Tathagata expounds today is called the Buddha-dhatu [Buddha-Nature]. This manner of Buddha-dhatu is shown in the Buddha-Dharma with the example of the real sword. Noble Son, should there be any ordinary person who is able well to expound this, then he [speaks] in accordance with unsurpassed Buddha-Dharma. Should there be anyone who is well able to distinguish this in accordance with what has been expounded regarding it, then you should know that he has the nature of a Bodhisattva.

An excellent collection of quotes.  Thank you for posting them.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2013, 05:23:28 am »
Quote
But do you notice the ability to change is actually showing you they do not have a particular or inherent shape?
H20
 :eek:
Surprised, huh?

That analogy then doesn't work. It cannot deliver the message, because it yields the concept of h2o. Forget it then.  :headbow:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:25:40 am by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline songhill

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2013, 08:42:08 am »
As long as you still have a concept, buddha nature cannot be understood properly.

Buddha nature can only be fully understood within non-conceptual experience.

Within non-conceptual experience, there is no buddha nature, because buddha nature is a concept.

Within that non-conceptual experience, that inexpressible is foolishly named as buddha nature.

According to your thinking, a red pepper can only be experienced by eating it. Okay, I agree. Still on the same track, within the direct experience of tasting a red pepper there is no concept—it's a taste only the first-person knows. Next, within the taste which is inexpressible, we are to conclude that the inexpressible is foolishly named "red pepper." This last part doesn't make any sense. If I am working in a kitchen as a chef and I ask, "Where are the red peppers?" The name red pepper is important—by it one can distinguish a box of peppers from peaches. It is sort of the same with Buddha-nature. The name and it description help to turn the adept to the possible gnosis of inexpressible Buddha-nature which transcends words and mental constructs of Buddha-nature. The name Buddha-nature also insures that the adept won't confuse it with inconceivable meaninglessness.


Offline Hanzze

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2013, 08:59:19 am »
Quote

...There is a lovely story from Nazrudin, a Sufi Master, who was gifted in telling absurd tales. One day, the story goes, he sent one of his disciples to the market and asked him to buy him a bag of chilies. The disciple did as requested and brought the bag to Nazrudin, who began to eat the chilies, one after another. Soon his face turned red, his nose started running, his eyes began to water and he was choking. The disciple observed this for a while with awe and then said: “Sir, your face is turning red, your eyes are watering and you are choking. Why don’t you stop eating these chilies?” Nazrudin replied: “I am waiting for a sweet one.”...



Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2013, 10:02:42 am »
Quote
BlueSky
The
But, you let go, you in fact throwing things out so to speak. And here, if buddha nature is not inherently you, your letting go will be useless.

can you provide proof for the view that YOU are Buddha Nature.

(I pretty sure Buddha nature is the term given to the Dharmakaya when it is obscured by the defilements which are YOU and everything that makes up YOU)

(I think it very weird that people argue all day about their being no self then in the end claim that YOU are Enlightenment.)

my friend understand what the teachings of non self were for:

V419.   O good man! The case is the same with the Tathagata. In order to save beings, he gives them the teaching of non-Self. Having practised the Way thus, beings do away with the [cast of] mind that clings to self and gain Nirvana. All of this is to do away with people's wrong concepts, to show them the Way and cause them to stand above, to show them that they adhere to self, that what obtains in the world is all false and not true, and to make them practise non-Self and purify themselves."

  For example, even when a person is told of the unholy self, he cannot know the true quality of the Self. The same is true of my disciples. As they do not befriend a good teacher of the Way, they practise non-Self and do not know where it [Self] is. They do not know the true nature of selflessness. How, then, could they know the true nature of the Self itself? Thus, O good man, the Tathagata says that all beings possess the Buddha-Nature. This is like the good doctor's making the wrestler see where the adamantine jewel rests. All these beings are reigned over by innumerable defilements and thus do not know the whereabouts of the Buddha-Nature. When illusion is dispelled, there arises knowledge and brightness. This is like the wrestler's seeing the gem in the mirror. O good man! It is thus the case that what rests undisclosed [latent] in the Tathagata is innumerable and is difficult for beings to think about.

the no self teachings were to show us what was not the self,it was to help us do away with people's wrong concepts, to show them the Way and cause them to stand above, to show them that they adhere to self, that what obtains in the world is all false and not true, and to make them practise non-Self and purify themselves.

no self teachings were to teach you to abandon the idea that the unholy self which is worldly and made up of the 5 aggregates and as the Buddha always claimed(((( are not my self.))))

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2013, 05:34:32 pm »
Quote

Songhill

Next, within the taste which is inexpressible, we are to conclude that the inexpressible is foolishly named "red pepper." This last part doesn't make any sense.

Why I call that foolishly named as red paper?

Simply, it is stupid to express something which cannot be expressed.

If you want to express, you can.

But after you express that as red pepper, don't think that red pepper is equivalent to your experience of that inexpressible.

Because they are not same.

You can use, but if you think that name is that experience, you are foolish.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2013, 05:41:01 pm »
Quote

can you provide proof for the view that YOU are Buddha Nature.


Just use your common sense.

If your nature is rock, by keep letting go, you will become rock.

If by keep letting go your hidden nature become obvious which in this case buddhahood, it means your nature must be Buddha, and it cannot be anything else.

And this is the reason as well, why you can realize your hidden buddhahood instantly, not gradually, like growing a seed to become a tree.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:44:19 pm by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline Lobster

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2013, 07:21:31 pm »
Quote
The pillar pulls out the bone sideways;
The void shows its claws and fangs;
Even if one profoundly understands,
There is still sand in the eye.

http://www.zenwomen.com/learning_from_all_beings/

Offline former monk john

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2013, 08:07:03 pm »
You can easily realize you have a buddha nature, but that doesnt make you a Buddha, even Gautama took many years to become a Buddha.
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2013, 08:25:12 pm »
One of the issue of buddha nature is buddha nature is seen as a seed or as a potential.

This way of looking is not correct.

Why?

Because the meaning of nature is completely different with the meaning of seed or potential.

You don't said buddha seed or buddha potential, do you?

And if there is a teaching saying you can become a buddha if you practice or because you have that potential, such teaching is stupid. Why?

Even a fool knows you can become like what you want if you practice.

You do not need such statement. Everybody knows you can become an olympic champion or become better than David Beckham if you practice.

THe teaching that teach you fire is hot is completely useless and stupid.

But if there is a teaching that tell you fire is cold, then there is something there, because it is against our common ignorant sense.

This is similar with the third turning wheel teaching where it is indeed daring for a teaching that tell you, you are already a buddha WITHOUT BEGINNING.

Because there is this contradiction that how can it is possible if you are a already a buddha, you are still deluded, then a teaching is necessary.

A teaching is necessary to clarify what seems contradicting.

And the teaching like you are already a buddha, is indeed very daring statement.

And there are a lot of debate about this since long time ago.

The question of why your buddha nature cannot be seen right now right here is because you don't want to drop your ego, your concept, your mind, your body.

Do you need aeons to drop that?

Within a split second you can actually drop it IF YOU WANT TO.

The problem is you don't want.

So, you are looking for your own problem, and for that reason your buddha nature which is right now in front of you seems to be something very far, very distant in the future.

THe reason is simple.

You don't want to drop your concept, your mind, your body, your true self, your lord of self, and so on.

What is the use to protect them? For what?

DO you need aeons to drop that? Days to just drop it?




« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 08:35:01 pm by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline former monk john

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2013, 09:10:56 pm »
i suggest you try sticking your hand in the fire, it will burn...........
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline Hanzze

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2013, 09:33:37 pm »
You can easily realize you have a buddha nature, but that doesnt make you a Buddha, even Gautama took many years to become a Buddha.
So explain me, where and how did you realize such? Not to ask who... Don't mix ideas with realization.

Offline Hanzze

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2013, 09:34:14 pm »
i suggest you try sticking your hand in the fire, it will burn...........
From where do you know that?

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: What is Buddha Nature(Tathagatagarbha)?
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2013, 11:14:29 pm »
Quote

can you provide proof for the view that YOU are Buddha Nature.


Just use your common sense.

If your nature is rock, by keep letting go, you will become rock.

If by keep letting go your hidden nature become obvious which in this case buddhahood, it means your nature must be Buddha, and it cannot be anything else.

And this is the reason as well, why you can realize your hidden buddhahood instantly, not gradually, like growing a seed to become a tree.

common sense tells me that YOU are not Buddha Nature.

Buddhist sutras tell me YOU are not Buddha Nature

Buddha Nature is the Dharmakaya obscured by defilement, YOU are not the Dharmakaya/Buddha are you??? if you were then we would all be talking to Buddha that doesn't have the 3 poisons Greed,anger,ignorance are YOU a Buddha??
if not then you most be the other thing (the defilement that obscures the Dharmakaya)

the things the Buddha constantly said "are not mine,this is not my self"

 


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