Author Topic: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?  (Read 242 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« on: August 11, 2017, 05:09:24 pm »

How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
Do not answer to quick and resume it well.
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Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 06:19:08 pm »
I think I only follow my stomach. By this I mean, I don't seem to actively pursue liberation with liberation in mind but can not stomach certain things, things that other people seem to be able to do repeatedly and tolerate. So because I have trouble approving of evilness, I don't kill etc etc not that I do so for some reason other than just being weak and sensitive and unable to live in the manner others seem to.

Offline ground

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 09:52:29 pm »

How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?

Liberation is no deal.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 10:16:27 pm »

How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?

Liberation is no deal.

What do you mean?

Like a deal is giving something to get something? You are saying one gives nothing to get liberated? Sure, if its the whole "you just die forever anyway" thing, I guess that would be true!

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 10:59:27 pm »

How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?

Liberation is no deal.
That thinking is way the Buddha called the Jains simply thieves. It's the talk about rightly awakened. Tmingyur (Ground) as a materialist Arahat will take kin, cattle, refrigerator, car and your girlands of ideas and perceptions of what cessation will be with you of course, into the literary liberation of his verbalisation. TMingyur got what he gave, that's a law of nature, and get it again and again.
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Offline ground

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 11:18:03 pm »

How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?

Liberation is no deal.
That thinking is way the Buddha called the Jains simply thieves. It's the talk about rightly awakened. Tmingyur (Ground) as a materialist Arahat will take kin, cattle, refrigerator, car and your girlands of ideas and perceptions of what cessation will be with you of course, into the literary liberation of his verbalisation. TMingyur got what he gave, that's a law of nature, and get it again and again.

That shows that Samana Johann is preaching a materialist's dhamma: 'If I give this then I will receive the desired in return.'

Trump's dhamma: good deal  :teehee:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 12:15:34 am »
A sting and greedy fool develops all kind of things and ideas, yet not even an idea of giving up othwardly thinks, not to speak of giving up to take live, what is not given without strings, to speak what is not true.

How poor must be a person to speak in such ways in reagard of different beggars and thinking being an Arahat. It's simply called outcast.

There are three point which makes that clear for everyone, for every Kalama, not to speak of wise:

Quote
Paṇḍita Sutta: The Wise

"These three things have been promulgated by wise people, by people of integrity. Which three? Generosity... going-forth [from the home life]... & service to one's mother & father. These three things have been promulgated by wise people, by people of integrity."


But go on on your lane and hope all of you deeds have no effects here and after, it's heritage.



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Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 02:06:35 am »

How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?

Liberation is no deal.
That thinking is way the Buddha called the Jains simply thieves. It's the talk about rightly awakened. Tmingyur (Ground) as a materialist Arahat will take kin, cattle, refrigerator, car and your girlands of ideas and perceptions of what cessation will be with you of course, into the literary liberation of his verbalisation. TMingyur got what he gave, that's a law of nature, and get it again and again.

That shows that Samana Johann is preaching a materialist's dhamma: 'If I give this then I will receive the desired in return.'

Trump's dhamma: good deal  :teehee:

What is really wrong with that though?

If you do a nice thing, will it not have nice results? If you do a bad thing, will it not have bad results? If it will not have bad results, why is it bad? If it will not have nice results, how is it nice?

Cosmic Economy was the whole idea of Karma as understood by many cultures which adopted the term. You give, you receive, you put forward, you get back. You push, it pulls, you feed, it grows.

You eat calories, you burn calories, you eat calories again. You give sleep, you take time, you gain rest, you gain time.

This is observable and understandable. Not really necessary to mock the simple reality, yes it is absurd, yes it is baseless, because it it comes from an unconditioned place of total freedom.

So the question is a fine one, what are you willing to give, if anything, to be liberated. Its worth thinking about.

In my case, I find myself only following my sensitivities and proclivities. I have no lust for certain things, I can't even relate, I don't have a taste for evilness, I don't have an attraction to being a wicked person or being cruel to people, it hurts me and makes me cry to hurt people, I have a high level of empathy built into me, genetic or otherwise. So I naturally can't become intoxicated or seek intoxication, I naturally have a problem with being unethical, a cheat, a traitor, whatever else. I don't know, it just seems to be how I am. I'm a very soft person in life, I don't hurt insects or anything, I always work to save them and spare them, stuff like that, gentle with everything.

If liberation really means "death forever", I'm not rushing. I'm not so fond of the world, but I don't like the idea of not living, I'm not suicidal and I don't think suicide was the goal of Buddhism, and if it was, then too bad, because other people seem to have thought differently and also called their ideas Buddhism.

As for freedom, bliss, the ability to help and peace, then I am all for that, because I don't like suffering, and I don't like troubles, but I also don't have a stomach which can just turn a blind eye to cries of all the struggling.

Its the soft heart I was born with, and all I do is find myself trying to show love and care to people, trying to comfort them, trying to benefit them at home, in my travels and activities, and online as well too, widespread, not just on this forum, I'm all over the place, and have many intimate contacts where I try to help as well. I can't seem to "not" do it, I can't seem to hear a person cry for help and not try to give them some solution if I can or some sort of corrective help if possible or to study the issue and try to see where the problem is exactly in order to help it.

It seems different to me than actually deliberately saying to myself "I want to be liberated from this world so I will do these things" which may in fact be more brave and noble than what I am, which is that "I find myself unable to do anything else than to try to help and be good to all creatures".

I think that in many cases, it may come down to nature and natural inclinations in many ways, so again, a materialistic seeming idea in some senses, but not wholly. I don't actually find there to be a big distinction between the Natural, Technological, and Spiritual, to me its all One Thing, All within the Reality and Ultimate Reality.

If I found myself consumed by desires and lusts which I don't even understand in my current state, maybe I would be different, maybe I would go around harming women or whatever, but I just don't have the stomach for any of that, I don't like or approve of that wicked stuff, I never did, I have no taste for it or attraction to it and I'm opposed to it and people doing that to each other for example. I don't like it because it hurts me, it hurts me to see it, its all suffering and causing suffering even to me due to empathy and my nature.

Offline ground

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 02:25:10 am »
A sting and greedy fool develops all kind of things and ideas,
yes, only one committed to rationality will not. Why? Because only rationality will result in direct perception of emptiness of all phenomena and actions or non-actions. :fu:

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 02:47:30 am »
A sting and greedy fool develops all kind of things and ideas,
yes, only one committed to rationality will not. Why? Because only rationality will result in direct perception of emptiness of all phenomena and actions or non-actions. :fu:

Can you explain that to me, or go through the process of explaining it please?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 11:53:03 am »
That shows that Samana Johann is preaching a materialist's dhamma: 'If I give this then I will receive the desired in return.'

Trump's dhamma: good deal  :teehee:

Well-spoken. Liberation is based on wisdom; on experience. This is why many monks fail & disrobe.  :namaste:

Offline IdleChater

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 12:37:59 pm »
That shows that Samana Johann is preaching a materialist's dhamma: 'If I give this then I will receive the desired in return.'

Trump's dhamma: good deal  :teehee:

Well-spoken. Liberation is based on wisdom; on experience. This is why many monks fail & disrobe.  :namaste:


A monks disrobing is not always a matter of "failure".  In fact, the several cases I am intimately familiar with "failure to keep their vows wasn't an issue.  It was, in every case, a decision based on the realization that it was time to move one, or to get married, or the monastic life having lost its lusture.

A classic example is King Monkut of Siam.  He is best known for his characature in the story , Anna and the King od Siam.  The story goes that as a young prince, Monkut entered a monastery and was quite happy there for 27 years, until circumstnces involved the throne if Saim being handed to him, requiring him to disrobe to take his office.

The lamas I know disrobed mainly because the fell in love and wanted to marry.

I know another who disrobed, and moved back to Bhutan to take care of his aging parents.

It's quite acceptable for Buddhist monks to give up their vows and it is not seen as a failure.

You are so quick to condemn.  You must be perfect.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 12:58:04 pm »
That shows that Samana Johann is preaching a materialist's dhamma: 'If I give this then I will receive the desired in return.'

Trump's dhamma: good deal  :teehee:

Well-spoken. Liberation is based on wisdom; on experience. This is why many monks fail & disrobe.  :namaste:


A monks disrobing is not always a matter of "failure".  In fact, the several cases I am intimately familiar with "failure to keep their vows wasn't an issue.  It was, in every case, a decision based on the realization that it was time to move one, or to get married, or the monastic life having lost its lusture.

A classic example is King Monkut of Siam.  He is best known for his characature in the story , Anna and the King od Siam.  The story goes that as a young prince, Monkut entered a monastery and was quite happy there for 27 years, until circumstnces involved the throne if Saim being handed to him, requiring him to disrobe to take his office.

The lamas I know disrobed mainly because the fell in love and wanted to marry.

I know another who disrobed, and moved back to Bhutan to take care of his aging parents.

It's quite acceptable for Buddhist monks to give up their vows and it is not seen as a failure.

You are so quick to condemn.  You must be perfect.

Its very common for people to be raised a certain way, become monks even, and then leave that lifestyle to take on other issues and ways of living, and this is not usually met with ridicule but is considered quite normal and common, just as you've said.

I've never heard such being called "failure" or people being guilt tripped over it. A real, heavy duty cult, might go around ridiculing and trying to control people or how they use the tools provided, and try to shame people for leaving to make other members afraid to leave, but all these tactics may stem from a real faithlessness and misunderstanding overall.

Being a monk is not a requirement, nor is changing your mind or doing something else some sort of a major crime.

Maybe someday VisuddhiRaptor will also change their mind and do something else than what they are often seen doing, maybe me too. In the case of VisuddhiRaptor, such would perhaps be a cause for celebration, and maybe even in my case as well.

Now though, with people like VisuddhiRaptor around and going around spreading their version of extremist fundamentalism, we might start to see more cult-like developments and attitudes, people being shunned, ridiculed, mocked for thinking of a change of course or style, or whatever else stemming from a doctrine of faithlessness and fear and control. "The Dhamma should be nothing else than this!" "You are not a real monk!" "You were never a monk because you chose not to be a monk! You are a failure!" and on and on the wicked harsh voice rattles and rolls. There were Extremists mentioned in the Suttas as well apparently or various accounts, people who wanted stricter rules and conformity to certain ideas without accepting others who were a thorn in the community and a trouble, obstructing people from the Dhamma or trying to cast them out or make them run away.

Maybe VisuddhiRaptor, had they any grander sight to grasp how they appear, might see how their behavior appears at least similar to radical fanatics and cultists.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2017, 06:06:53 pm »
That shows that Samana Johann is preaching a materialist's dhamma: 'If I give this then I will receive the desired in return.'

Trump's dhamma: good deal  :teehee:

Well-spoken. Liberation is based on wisdom; on experience. This is why many monks fail & disrobe.  :namaste:
Yes, liberation is based on wisdom, the wisdom that what ever one holds on limits and does not lead to liberation. There are many dangers of material things also for monks and that is why my person says, that the most secure way, and most plesant is to take on the tudongas. This kind of freedom and life requires of course much wisdom and is not out of reason today seldom even under the monks, guess it was the same at the times of the Buddha.

Monks disrobe because they are drunken in youth, health and age. Btw. Element, haven't you been a monk. Why (guessing it was a female reason) did you disrobe, and what was the impact on freedom? Maybe you'll share your story why after joining the holly life, you gave up and returned to the housholders life?
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2017, 09:37:28 pm »
... haven't you been a monk. Why (guessing it was a female reason) did you disrobe, and what was the impact on freedom? Maybe you'll share your story why after joining the holy life, you gave up and returned to the houesholders life?
Never been a monk. Never been a 'householder'.  Haven't had sex in 30 years. Wander alone like a rhinoceros. Try to work it out. :lmfao:

Quote
"We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come."

Householder

Quote
The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... perception... fabrication is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home.

And how does one not live at home? Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions with regard to the property of form: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home.

Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of feeling... perception... fabrication...

Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of consciousness: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home

Non-householder
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 09:43:52 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

 


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