Author Topic: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!  (Read 417 times)

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 01:09:30 pm »
Well, a long time ago, for around 2500 years or so, the majority of people thinking they understood the Sutta, took it to refer to concepts such as entirely different experiences of realities that were not in the same bodily lifetime experience. These people had read the same stuff as you are reading today in English, but they read it in their cultural context and language and somehow came up with the idea that these things didn't mean "A couple years ago when I was a different sort of person, doing different sort of things", but instead seem to have very much taken it as a reference to some sort of big system.

Furthermore, if everyone ends up at the same end, it kind of unravels the whole point of any of the fuss being made for 2500 years. One could simply say nothing and let each person live out their temporary life and die, and whether they are a criminal or a saint, they would just end up being dead the same as each other.

So much Buddhist literature seems to be dedicated to the idea that the whole fuss is because this is not believed to be the case in those various cultures called "Buddhist".

Offline meez

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Re: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 02:35:31 pm »
Are you saying we are uninformed, Element?  I gasp at such adjectives.

Indeed, you are uninformed. You are interpreting text materialistically, without any understand of the underlying terms. You have not even comprehended the sutta I posted in the opening post, which literally states "recollecting past abodes" only refers to recollecting the past when an aggregate was taken to be "self".

Thus this sutta literally states what is recollected is not to be regarded as "self". Yet you seem to think what I posted is somehow wrong.

Why don't you read the sutta I posted? Thanks

 :namaste:

I didn't even read the sutta, so I didn't/wouldn't attempt to interpret it in any manner, much less try to comprehend it.  You might have been confused in thinking I was someone else, which can happen.

Take care!

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 05:13:29 pm »
Even if we were to read any collection of words, how are we supposed to understand them correctly without your brain? We need your brain first to understand them as you wish for us to understand them. Generations of people have not had your brain so have misunderstood the words you understand. What you are asking seems too hard "read the suttas as I do and understand them with my brain", I have a much easier solution which I hope you will be able to agree with. I will simply say to you that indeed the Sutta says what you want it to say and that you have grasped it wholly and without error. I offer no evidence for this, simply my trust that you are indeed the one with the brain to understand that Sutta. Excellent work. Furthermore, any Sutta you post, I will pre-emptively say now you have understood it wholly and correctly and anyone who differs from your understanding is wrong. I am wrong, Spiny, IdleChater, and Samana are all wrong, our main fault being that we did not have your brain so could not understand the Sutta correctly.

There is a slight problem though. Since we don't have your brain, we can also not understand you or what you say or what you are pointing out when you show a Sutta, nor can we correctly read it as you wish us to. We are left just taking it on faith that you are absolutely right and we are absolutely wrong, but because we don't have your brain, we can not even follow your words or advice either or your statements on how to follow the Sutta which we also can not understand.

Basically, you alone are posessor of the Right Brain and we are Left Brainless (lacking the appropriate brain required to understand or perform as you wish us to), so all the communication appears impossible and futile. You will never find anyone with your brain which is the necessary brain to understand the Sutta. If they had your brain, you wouldn't have your brain but they would.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2017, 01:15:12 am »
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html


Why has the translator mistranslated this, twice?

Firstly, 'nivasa' means 'abodes' or 'dwellings' rather than "lives".

Secondly, "jati" means "birth" rather than "lives".

Why did the translator avoid using the word "births"?

Here is another translation:

Quote
I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births.

So anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi, seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo tissopi jātiyo catassopi jātiyo pañcapi jātiyo dasapi jātiyo vīsampi jātiyo tiṃsampi jātiyo cattālīsampi jātiyo paññāsampi jātiyo jātisatampi jātisahassampi jāti­sata­sahas­sampi

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn4



Element, this is just further sophistry on your part.   Using "births" instead of "lives" doesn't alter the meaning here.  And just to remind you, here is how "birth" is defined in the suttas:
"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."  ( SN12.2, MN9, etc )

Clearly you are a materialist with a strong aversion to what the suttas say about rebirth, and you have desperate need to "prove" the suttas aren't describing a cycle of physical birth and death.  This is entirely pointless, it is rather like an atheist using the Bible to "prove" that God doesn't exist.

Quite a lot of westerners have problems with the teachings on rebirth.  The mature approach is to put these questions to one side, and focus on here and now practice.  Some people choose to adopt Secular Buddhism. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:19:24 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2017, 01:19:05 am »
I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html

What you think "many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion" means in the context?
 :curtain:


It means what it says.  It is straightforward description, and there is no evidence it is intended metaphorically.  As I said, it's very revealing how you prefer the literal meaning only on occasions when it suits your agenda.  Most of the time you can't stand the straightforward or literal meaning, because it directly contradicts the dogma you preach.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:21:10 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How to recollect past "lives" or past homes" !!
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2017, 02:33:20 am »
Very good Spiny Norman, your answers are heroic! Thank you for writing that out!

 


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