Author Topic: Jhana vs. kundalini  (Read 505 times)

Offline Tomsaywer

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Jhana vs. kundalini
« on: December 26, 2017, 09:54:23 am »
Hi,

Since a long time I´m practicing and learning about spiritual things. Mainly from Ajhan chah and the Theravada school but
also from yoga. And the last months a question have came up in my mind and that is confusing me a lot. There are lot of people who
talk about this kundalini experience and say that they got this self realization and say that it is equal to a jhana experience and samadhi, but
I must say that I had also experiences of leaving my body or dreaming of things which the next day happend or seeing lights and stuff like that, but I would not
at all say that I´m enlightened or dwelling in absolute bliss since then.
What I heard of as jhana must be more like an even minded and peaceful state where nothing at all happens cause there is no experiencer, whereas in the kundalini thing
you see people shaking and vibrating a lot. There is also a thing called shaktipat where the guru just touches the disciple and the disciple gets this experience
instantly whithout any practice. They say that the guru enters the astral body of the practitioner and levels it up. I also met a fortuneteller in india who was able to
read my mind even I hadn´t made the thought he had already written it on a paper and showed it to me later. He also
said that my third eye is open. But what now? I don´t feel so happy about all this stuff. So I´m confused with all this practicing of yoga
and anapanasati. The goal of yoga is to arouse the kundalini which they say it is the absolute experience which brings you the knowledge and everything but the practice
of anapanasati and vipassana seems to me aim at a different thing, namely knowledge of egolessness and that nothing lasts forever.
Or is it the same in the end? But how can that be, that people post youtube videos and talk about
their kundalini experience when it is such a high and spiritual thing. Why do buddhist monks dedicate their life to purify their self and practice very hard,
if they just could go to a guru, receive a touch, see the universial light and thats it?

I must say that I stopped my meditation practice after I had some unpleasent experiences like there was just no body but only space and a strange silince so I starded
shaking cause of fear. Now I´m to confused about the right practice and the need of a guru and things like that. And I can´t find a guru cause all I find is this
esoteric thing and It doesn´t seem like the true path for  me. There is too much hocus pocus.

Here is something I have found from vivekananda:

"There is no liberation in getting super powers. It is a worldly search after enjoynment in this life, all search for enjoynment is vain, this is the old old lesson,
which men finds so hard to learn. The possesion of what are called so called occult powers is only intensefying the world, and in the end, suffering."

I hope you can give me some Answers to this question what the difference is between this kundalini and Jhana thing?

I wish you all the best and thank you very much for your time

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2017, 12:46:29 pm »
I must say that I had also experiences of leaving my body or dreaming of things which the next day happened or seeing lights and stuff like that, but I would not at all say that I´m enlightened or dwelling in absolute bliss since then.

Yes. Not enlightened or not experienced jhana because what is described above is not jhana & not enlightenment.

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What I heard of as jhana must be more like an even minded and peaceful state where nothing at all happens cause there is no experiencer,

Yes. This is closer to jhana, although there is bliss in the lower jhanas. To learn about jhana I strongly recommend Ajahn Brahm's book: Mindfulness, Bliss & Beyond: https://www.dhammaloka.org.au/files/pdf/Ajahn_Brahm-Mindfulness_Bliss_and_Beyond-Chapters1-4.pdf

Also: http://dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.htm

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whereas in the kundalini thing you see people shaking and vibrating a lot.

Buddhism does not refer to kundalani directly however the more pure the body & mind become with meditation the more spiritual energy will generate due to the dissolution of blockages & unwholesome energy.

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There is also a thing called shaktipat where the guru just touches the disciple and the disciple gets this experience instantly whithout any practice. They say that the guru enters the astral body of the practitioner and levels it up. I also met a fortuneteller in india who was able to read my mind even I hadn't made the thought he had already written it on a paper and showed it to me later. He also said that my third eye is open. But what now? I don´t feel so happy about all this stuff.

People can develop psychic powers, which includes reading the mind's of others & transmitting both thought & other energies into others. But this use of psychic powers is forbidden in Buddhism. Read here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html

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So I´m confused with all this practicing of yoga and anapanasati.

Anapanasati is not yoga. Anapanasati means awareness of breathing from practising mindfulness. Mindfulness does not mean awareness but means 'remembering' to practise the teachings. The teachings instruct to practise letting go of craving & attachment. Therefore, Anapanasati means awareness of breathing that occurs due to practising letting go.

Where as yoga is the use of the will to perform postures, breathing exercises & impure concentration. This willfulness of yoga is the opposite of Anapanasati because Anapanasati has its foundation in letting go, as taught in the suttas, as follows:

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There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment (letting go).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html


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And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html


 :om:

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The goal of yoga is to arouse the kundalini which they say it is the absolute experience which brings you the knowledge and everything but the practice of anapanasati and vipassana seems to me aim at a different thing, namely knowledge of egolessness and that nothing lasts forever.

Correct. Anapanasati has its foundation in letting go, which means giving up of ego. This makes the mind increasingly pure or egoless until the mind has clear seeing (vipassana) that all things are egoless & impermanent.

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Or is it the same in the end?

No. Yoga is the exercise of willfulness & results in manipulations, suppressions & distortions of prana & mental energy. That is why it is difficult to meet & find well-balanced & mentally pure yoga practitioners. Yoga is a form of "doing" where as Anapanasati is a form of "non-doing". By non-doing, the mind remains open for mental impurities to rise up & dissolve. Where as yoga pushes & pulls mental impurities around the nervous system of the body but not dissolving them. Also, hatha yoga, particularly strong form such as Iyengar & Pattabhi Jois, can be incredibly harmful to Anapanasati, due to distorting & harming the natural flow of prana. Read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wreck-your-body.html  Strong forms of hatha yoga, such as Iyengar & Pattabhi Jois, are obstacles to & can ruin Anapanasati.

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But how can that be, that people post youtube videos and talk about their kundalini experience when it is such a high and spiritual thing.

Due to not being free from ego. Like little children playing with sandcastles, as the Buddha taught: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html

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Why do buddhist monks dedicate their life to purify their self and practice very hard, if they just could go to a guru, receive a touch, see the universial light and thats it?

The guru doesn't work. The guru will make you their slave. The guru maintains people like children & also harms many. In Buddhism, the Buddha gave some instructions and the students went away to practise alone. The Buddha treats his students like adults rather than like dependent children.

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I must say that I stopped my meditation practice after I had some unpleasant experiences like there was just no body but only space and a strange silence so I started shaking cause of fear.

This is common & ordinary. Spiritual teachings, including Buddhism, generally make everything sound positive & happy. But, in reality, when ego diminishes in the beginning stages of deep meditation, there will be fear because ego, which is a survival instinct, does not want to die. Even in Buddhism, many monks disrobe because their minds simply cannot cross that threshold into egolessness.


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Now I´m to confused about the right practice and the need of a guru and things like that. And I can´t find a guru cause all I find is this esoteric thing and It doesn´t seem like the true path for  me. There is too much hocus pocus.

As a Buddhist, I can only suggest to avoid gurus & yoga (which is a recommendation from experience rather than from prejudice).

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Here is something I have found from vivekananda:

"There is no liberation in getting super powers. It is a worldly search after enjoyment in this life, all search for enjoyment is vain, this is the old old lesson, which men finds so hard to learn. The possession of what are called so called occult powers is only intensifying the world, and in the end, suffering."

Vivekananda was a interfaith person & often taught similar to Buddhism. Yes, Vivekandanda was correct, above.

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I hope you can give me some Answers to this question what the difference is between this kundalini and Jhana thing?

Kundalini is merely catharsis. Where as jhana is a state of mental purity & perfect mental balance. In jhana, a mental image arises which the mind sticks to like a magnetic. Thus mind does not move for many hours however the mind is also extremely exalted & blissful ('heavenly'). If your mind is experiencing fear due to spaciousness & loss of ego (emptiness), it is not close to jhana however may be close to 'stream-entry', namely, the experience of seeing egolessness results in peace. Although your mind has not found peace, the arising of fear due to spaciousness is close to egolessness. It is Nature that has already determined whether your mind has the capacity or disposition to cross the threshold beyond fear when ego death occurs.

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I wish you all the best and thank you very much for your time

Thank you for gratitude. I have tried by best to give an explanation. If you seek to develop Anapanasati, it is best to do so by practising in a meditation monastery with experienced monks, for a solid period (say 3 to 12 months).  Please ask any necessary further questions. With metta  :namaste:

« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 12:56:32 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2017, 01:29:09 pm »
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Now I´m to confused about the right practice and the need of a guru and things like that. And I can´t find a guru cause all I find is this esoteric thing and It doesn´t seem like the true path for  me. There is too much hocus pocus.

As a Buddhist, I can only suggest to avoid gurus & yoga (which is a recommendation from experience rather than from prejudice).


Well he could suggest otherwise, but he won't, and it is entirely based on predjudice.  It may also be a part if his/her experience, but it is still predjudice.  Let there be no mistake.  Let me add, on a personal note, that you should NOT avoid a Guru should one present him/her self.  It may not be YOUR guru, the person who can and will aid you in attaining enlightenment and buddhahood, but that person may be the one to point you to your guru.

Yoga?  If you mean the stretching excecises, there is nothing wrong with that.  On the other hand if you mean tantric yogas, you must have a guru for that, so if you desire that sort of practice, you can't avaoid the guru.

There is no such thing as a "true" path.  There are only paths.  One will lead you to Buddhahood, the rest will not, but it is still just a path.  All paths include the guru whether he is present or not.  A guru may not be present in one life, but will be manifest in another.

Esoteric Buddhist practices are n ot for everyone.  They are only for those with the karmic capacity and disposition for it.  If it's not for you, fine it' not for you, but I'd advise you to not apply right/wrong evaluations to it. I say that, because regardless of how you feel about it right now, it's not "hocus pocus" and a steady, and open heart will reveal that eventually, and that revelation won't come without the Guru.

So, I hope that helps.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2017, 03:38:13 pm »
So, I hope that helps.


Are you one those followers that engaged in sexual activities with the guru or community of the guru?

Yoga?  If you mean the stretching excecises, there is nothing wrong with that.


These can be very harmful, as i posted. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wreck-your-body.html

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On the other hand if you mean tantric yogas, you must have a guru for that, so if you desire that sort of practice, you can't avaoid the guru.


This topic is about JHANA (a state of mental solitude & mental purity) rather than about finding a guru to have (dirty) sex with.

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One will lead you to Buddhahood, the rest will not, but it is still just a path.


The Tantra of Trumpa's community lead to AIDS rather than to Buddhahood.

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BOULDER, Colo., Feb. 20— America's largest Tibetan Buddhist group has been thrown into turmoil by allegations that its leader knew he had AIDS and transmitted it to his sexual partners.

Osel Tendzin, the 45-year-old regent of the Vajradhatu International Buddhist Church, is said to be in seclusion in La Jolla, Calif., and could not be reached for comment. Many members have urged that he resign, after a man with whom he had sex received a positive test for the AIDS virus. In December, a high priest of Tibetan Buddhism told a group of American Buddhists that there was concern that Mr. Tendzin ''might have passed this on to many, many people.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/21/us/buddhists-in-us-agonize-on-aids-issue.html

Amid allegations that he had sex with his disciples after being exposed to the AIDS virus, the leader of one of the nation's largest Buddhist sects has gone into retreat in Southern California to consider requests that he resign. Osel Tendzin, the American-born leader of an international network of Tibetan Buddhist centers, already has apologized for his "ignorance" and "clouded vision" in letters to his students and in meetings at his Vajradhatu meditation centers in Berkeley, Boulder, Colo., and elsewhere. "There are individuals in the sangha (congregation) who would like to see me remove myself from the sphere of Vajradhatu," Tendzin wrote in a recent letter to his disciples. "If I were to do such a thing it would violate the oath I took with my guru, and it would also violate "my heart." Tendzin's guru is the late Chgyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who came here from Tibet in 1970 to found one
of the nation's most successful and infamous Buddhist empires, which includes "Dharmadatua" meditation centers in San Francisco, Berkeley and Palo Alto. Long before his death last year at age 47, Trungpa named Tendzin his "vajra regent" and successor to lead his free wheeling 3,000-member sect.

http://www.drbachinese.org/vbs/publish/228/vbs228p018e.pdf


 :smack:

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Esoteric Buddhist practices are not for everyone.


This topic is about JHANA and not sexual tantra, which some call "esoteric" but are in reality just sexual lust.

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They are only for those with the karmic capacity and disposition for it.


Yes. More specifically, hungry ghosts.

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If it's not for you, fine it' not for you, but I'd advise you to not apply right/wrong evaluations to it.


Definitely not for me, having homosexual sex with the Guru & getting AIDS.

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I say that, because regardless of how you feel about it right now, it's not "hocus pocus" and a steady, and open heart will reveal that eventually, and that revelation won't come without the Guru.


Its 'hocus pocus', as the Buddha taught.  Please try to stay on topic, which is JHANA vs KUNDALINI. :namaste:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 02:20:51 am by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline ground

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2017, 11:11:04 pm »
I hope you can give me some Answers to this question what the difference is between this kundalini and Jhana thing?

No difference: equally usseless but pastime and diversion nevertheless.

 :fu:

Offline Tomsaywer

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 12:38:24 pm »
Thank you all for the fast and detailed answers.

Yes there are many differences and of course most of the yoga which is practiced today is based on either a physical basis which comes from the guys like iyengar
and krichnamacharya, or it is more of a tantric nature. And tantra is, or was a big field in the past which hadn´t a lot to do with sexuality. This is just a small
part of tantra. In fact a very small part. Tantra is one of the oldest mystical teachings still existing and came up long before hinduism and other religions.
And the main idea of tantra is that you shouldn´t struggle with getting rid of your impureties but instead use them as an object for meditation. You can find this
also in tibetan buddhism. And this whole system what they call kundalini yoga actually comes first hand from tantra. I hope you know about it a bit but in short
the idea is that we human beings are made of many different energies like a whirlwinds the chakras and when the energy is flowing balanced in all of them, also
the mental and physical and spritual levels are balanced. So Hatha and kundalini yoga, which is just an intesefied form of Hatha yoga, aim at bring balance in the
energetic body first so that it then can affect the intellectual and spiritual body to bring a state of meditation. In buddhism they start from the intellectual level
and this in turn affects the spiritual and also energetic level. So as I have understood you also can open the chakras or raise the kundalini by having insights.
Like when you realize that life is more than just work and eat and sleep and change your attitude towards life, than your root chakra is open. Same works for all the
other chakras as well as for the channals where the energy is flowing. This is used in reiki and chi gong also.

Of course what you´ve said that yoga can be harmful is true if you want to do things like iyenga. Also asanas came really late in the history of yoga. Even patanjali
describes only one or two asanas and in his context it just means to sit in a good posture for meditating. But when you look at the eightfold path and the 8 steps
from patanjali than it is not so different. First there are there are moral codes to create a suitible place for practice and a peaceful environment, similar to sila.
Than you have forms of turning the mind inward and watching with detachement till the state of concentration arises, that is dharana or in buddhism I think establishing
the mental sign or something, and than when dharana is hold for a long time dhyana arises, which is the same as in buddhism. In yoga then comes samdhi but i have found,
that in Buddhism they use the word samadhi for concentration. In yoga it means more like the highest jhana.

And there are also forms of yoga like karma yoga=selfless service whithout ego, which is definitely not harmful I think.
And jnana yoga, which means to develop insight, but not through the intellect but through deep realization of the truth. Same as buddhism.
And there is bhakti yoga which means to see god in everything and thereby reducing the ego cause in the end all is god. Buddha said it is difficult to not fall into
the trap of blindly believe what you´ve been told and therefore come in conflict with others. So he said its better to see for yourself and than believe the
egolessness from experience rather than from learned and idoctrinated knowledge.

Sorry for writing so much but I just want that you see that I´m not talking about Yoga in the sence of doing asanas. Some of them can be good, some of them not.
Even some of the stuff you see today has nothing to do with Yoga. A lot comes from ballet and other sports. But the main Idea behind is that by changing your physical
body posture and bringing pressure on sertain points you open and activate biochemical energy which inturn leads you to a different state of mind and meditation
comes easy. Same with the breathing exercices. But like I said you can also change the energy by other factors for example someone tells you you won in the lottery,
than your energy will change instantly. Breathing deals more with emotion and this is also the point where I question myself:

If there is a state of mind equal to a state of energy, is it possible that by just changing the energy level of your body you could attain the state of jhana. Or
reverse, If you reach a jhana is it that your kundalini awakans automatically?

I´ve found two descriptions of kundalini, in one it is meant more like a biochemical, electromagnetic buzz wheras in the other it is more described as an enlightment
process. Both are from swami satyananda Saraswati. :

1.
The awakening of kundalini

Sometime later I had another experience while sitting on the banks of the Ganga. I was thinking of something mundane when my mind spontaneously started going in and in. Suddenly I felt as if the earth was slipping from under me and the sky was expanding and receding. A moment later I experienced a terrible force springing from the base of my body like an atomic explosion. I felt that I was vibrating very fast, the light currents were terrific. I experienced the supreme bliss, like the climax of a man’s desire, and it continued for a long time. My whole body was contracting until the feeling of pleasure became quite unbearable and I completely lost awareness of my body. This was the third time it had happened.
After returning to consciousness I was listless for many days. I could not eat, sleep or move, even to go to the toilet. I saw everything but nothing registered. The bliss was a living thing within me and I knew that if I moved, this wonderful feeling would cease; I would lose the intensity of it all. How could I move when bells were ringing inside? This was the awakening of my kundalini.
After a week or so I returned to normal and then I started to study tantra and yoga very seriously. At first I was still a bit weak and sick, so I practised hatha yoga to purify my whole system. Then I began to explore the fantastic science of kundalini yoga. What is this power which awakens in mooladhara chakra? My interest was aroused and I put much effort into trying to understand this marvellous force.
With the awakening of kundalini, the greater intelligence is aroused from its sleep and you can give birth to a new range of creativity. When kundalini awakens, not only are you blessed with visions and psychic experiences, you could become a prophet, saint, inspired artist or musician, a brilliant writer or poet, a clairvoyant or messiah. Or you could become an outstanding leader, prime minister, governor or president. The awakening of kundalini affects the whole area of the human mind and behaviour.
Kundalini is not a myth or an illusion. It is not a hypothesis or a hypnotic suggestion. Kundalini is a biological substance that exists within the framework of the body. Its awakening generates electrical impulses throughout the whole body and these impulses can be detected by modern scientific instruments and machines. Therefore, each of us should consider the importance and the benefits of awakening kundalini, and we should make a resolve to awaken this great shakti."

2.
In the Christian tradition, the terms ‘the Path of the Initiates’ and ‘the Stairway to Heaven’ used in the Bible, refer to kundalini’s ascent through sushumna nadi.
 The ascent of kundalini and, ultimately, the descent of spiritual grace, are symbolized by the cross.
This is why Christians make the sign of the cross at ajna, anahata and vishuddhi chakras,
 for ajna is the centre where the ascending consciousness is transcended and anahata is where the descending grace is made manifest to the world.
Whatever happens in spiritual life, it is related to the awakening of kundalini. And the goal of every form of spiritual life,
 whether you call it samadhi, nirvana, moksha, communion, union, kaivalya, liberation or whatever, is in fact awakening of kundalini.


About my unpleasent experience: I also think that it was just the strangeness which scared me a bit, because the next time I just was sitting there and held my eyes
closed and intentionally whatched the whole process physicall and mental. And I´ve found out that it went away after a short time. That was the first time I managed
to sit through this panic without stopping meditation and I felt great afterwards. Than I read "In the dead of the night" from ajahn chah and realized that I´m not the only one who had such experiences. And I also think that it was some kind of impurity or something which came up, so
thats also a reason I think why ajahn brahm says: keep the precepts for good sake, cause what you face in meditation is your own self. And that is probably why tantra is such a dangerous method, because it is easy to fall.

And after that experience I thought it is better to work a bit on my normal life and to cultivate more love and positive vibes before going on internally. And I think
that is the whole idea of yoga and buddhism: to purify and to develop inside. But in the end I think there is no other way but to try and find out for myself what is what and who is who...

here are two videos which maybe will awake your interrest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-pCix0vb5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chPBmSzvStQ



Offline IdleChater

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 01:46:06 pm »
So, I hope that helps.

Are you one those followers that engaged in sexual activities with the guru or community of the guru?


Getting a little personal?  But sorry, no.  I was a little late to the party.  All the drug-fueled orgies with Trungpa were over by the time I got there.  Story of my life.

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On the other hand if you mean tantric yogas, you must have a guru for that, so if you desire that sort of practice, you can't avaoid the guru.

This topic is about JHANA (a state of mental solitude & mental purity) rather than about finding a guru to have (dirty) sex with.

Guru came into the convo with the OP.  Just expanding on that part of it.  Yoga is also an esoteric practice in Buddhism.  Such as the 4 Yogas of Gampopa and Guru Yoga practice.

But "dirty sex" is something you brought in, pal.  Dirty sex?  I mean, I don't even tknow that means.  What I'd call Dirty Sex is actually kinda fun.  Refer to Franks Zappa's "Dirty Love" on the Overnight Sensation album.

You make it sound like every guru/student relationship that every was included lots of "dirty sex". Nothing could be farther from the truth.

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One will lead you to Buddhahood, the rest will not, but it is still just a path.

The Tantra of Trumpa's community lead to AIDS rather than to Buddhahood.

Besides being wrong it's terribly naive.  In fact to say it's naive would be an insult to those who are truly naive.

Tantric practice had nothing to do with it.  Unprotected sex did.

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Esoteric Buddhist practices are not for everyone.

This topic is about JHANA and not sexual tantra, which some call "esoteric" but are in reality just sexual lust.

Again, esoteric practices  are not about having sex.  There are some practices where meditational deities are visualized "in union".  It's a metaphor.



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They are only for those with the karmic capacity and disposition for it.

Yes. More specifically, hungry ghosts.

Geez, man, WHERE do you come up with stuff like that?

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If it's not for you, fine it' not for you, but I'd advise you to not apply right/wrong evaluations to it.

Definitely not for me, having homosexual sex with the Guru & getting AIDS.

Wow, dude you are really into this sex thing.  Turn-about's fair play.  Let me ask you a straight up question.  Are you sexually disfuctional in some way, shape or form.  Something that has repeatedly interferred with have some semblance of a normal sex life?  Like ever?

You seem to equate tantra with sex and irresponsibility.. Two things that maybe you have never allowed yourself causing deep animosity and even hatred towrds it.

That wouldn't be so bad, except that you really don't know what you're talking about, so I wonder why you brought it up at all?

I don't get it, you tee off on the subject, obiously not knowing anything about and you end up looking like a complete fool.

Why do you do this to  yourself?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Jhana vs. kundalini
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 05:01:21 pm »
In buddhism they start from the intellectual level and this in turn affects the spiritual and also energetic level.

Yes. In the Buddhist noble eightfold, Right View or Right Understanding is said to be the leader. Buddhist concentration (samadhi) is described as follows:
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Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. Of those, right view is the forerunner.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

~~~~~~

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So as I have understood you also can open the chakras or raise the kundalini by having insights.

Buddhism does not use this terminology because, while body, mind, nervous system are certainly purified, including from what is depicted in yoga as the lower chakras upwards, Buddhism focuses on freedom from suffering rather than energies. In Buddhism, spiritual progress, such as the four levels of enlightenment, is measured in terms of psychological freedom from attachment & suffering.

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Also asanas came really late in the history of yoga. Even patanjali describes only one or two asanas and in his context it just means to sit in a good posture for meditating.

I have heard this before.

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But when you look at the eightfold path and the 8 steps from patanjali than it is not so different.

It is different in the way I posted above, namely, the 1st step or leader of the eightfold is wisdom.

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Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. Of those, right view is the forerunner

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html

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the mental sign or something

When distinguishing Anapanasati from Yoga, this idea of a mental sign (nimitta) is important because in Anapanasati the in & out breathing should be regarded as a "sign" rather than a deliberate object to focus on. When the mind has let go & is quiet, empty, fluid & spacious, the mind will automatically start awareness of breathing because, for the quiet mind, the breathing naturally is the coarsest sense object. In short, there is no need to deliberately focus on the breathing because deliberately focusing in the breathing is both craving & a method that won't work in the long run. 

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In yoga then comes samdhi but i have found, that in Buddhism they use the word samadhi for concentration. In yoga it means more like the highest jhana.

The four jhanas are Right Samadhi in the 8 fold path, but, yes, they represent the culmination of samadhi. There are lower levels of samadhi in Buddhism, which are sufficient for stream-entry.

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And there are also forms of yoga like karma yoga=selfless service whithout ego, which is definitely not harmful I think.

When I referred to harm, I referred to Iyengar Hatha. But, yes, karma, raga or bhakti yoga won't harm the body to create an intrinsic harm to the potential of Anapansati.

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And jnana yoga, which means to develop insight, but not through the intellect but through deep realization of the truth. Same as buddhism.

These ideas probably arose after Buddhism. Lots of Hinduism arose after Buddhism. In the Buddhist suttas, the only Brahmanism (Hinduism) mentioned is the Four Vedas. The Upanishads are not even mentioned in the Buddhist suttas.

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Sorry for writing so much but I just want that you see that I´m not talking about Yoga in the sence of doing asanas.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I was wrongly assuming you were referring to modern hatha yoga.

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If there is a state of mind equal to a state of energy, is it possible that by just changing the energy level of your body you could attain the state of jhana.

In Buddhism, jhanas are states of mental purity & non-attachment, particularly where the five hindrances (sensual desire, ill-will, restlessness & remorse, sloth & torpor and doubt/fear) have been dissolved. No amount of energy can bring Buddhism jhana. Buddhism jhana is lokuttara, which means transcending the world of attachment.

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Or reverse, If you reach a jhana is it that your kundalini awakans automatically?

In Buddhism, jhana occurs when the five hindrances (sensual desire, ill-will, restlessness & remorse, sloth & torpor and doubt/fear) have been dissolved.

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Sometime later I had another experience while sitting on the banks of the Ganga. I was thinking of something mundane when my mind spontaneously started going in and in. Suddenly I felt as if the earth was slipping from under me and the sky was expanding and receding. A moment later I experienced a terrible force springing from the base of my body like an atomic explosion. I felt that I was vibrating very fast, the light currents were terrific. I experienced the supreme bliss, like the climax of a man’s desire, and it continued for a long time. My whole body was contracting until the feeling of pleasure became quite unbearable and I completely lost awareness of my body. This was the third time it had happened.

Sounds good. I would regard this as a spontaneous purification or catharsis, similar to a cold-turkey withdrawal. This is not jhana but is certainly a step in the right direction, namely, purification or release of stored negative energy in the body & mind.

 
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After returning to consciousness I was listless for many days. I could not eat, sleep or move, even to go to the toilet. I saw everything but nothing registered. The bliss was a living thing within me and I knew that if I moved, this wonderful feeling would cease; I would lose the intensity of it all. How could I move when bells were ringing inside? This was the awakening of my kundalini.

This video about a similar experience of Ajahn Chah might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1oK4Vt_ntY&t=9s

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My interest was aroused and I put much effort into trying to understand this marvellous force.

This force is 'god' or 'nirodha dhatu' (extinguishing element). It functions on its own, similar to a cold-turkey. If function when craving & ambition are abandoned. It functions via letting go or surrender.

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Kundalini is a biological substance that exists within the framework of the body.
Kundalini is like water flushing shit down the toilet.


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About my unpleasent experience: I also think that it was just the strangeness which scared me a bit, because the next time I just was sitting there and held my eyes closed and intentionally whatched the whole process physicall and mental. And I´ve found out that it went away after a short time. That was the first time I managed to sit through this panic without stopping meditation and I felt great afterwards.

Wonderful. Sit through this panic without stopping meditation.  :namaste:

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Than I read "In the dead of the night" from ajahn chah and realized that I´m not the only one who had such experiences. And I also think that it was some kind of impurity or something which came up, so thats also a reason I think why ajahn brahm says: keep the precepts for good sake, cause what you face in meditation is your own self. And that is probably why tantra is such a dangerous method, because it is easy to fall.

To sit through fear requires more than precepts. It requires courage & having no place to return. It requires wanting liberation.

Nice chatting.  :namaste:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 05:03:36 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

 


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