Author Topic: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?  (Read 396 times)

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2017, 09:46:45 pm »
You are so quick to condemn.  You must be perfect.
Sorry. But maybe not. My post was about Samana Johann's ideas of success & failure, rather than yours or maybe mine  :teehee:

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2017, 09:51:54 pm »
... haven't you been a monk. Why (guessing it was a female reason) did you disrobe, and what was the impact on freedom? Maybe you'll share your story why after joining the holy life, you gave up and returned to the houesholders life?
Never been a monk. Never been a 'householder'.  Haven't had sex in 30 years. Try to work it out. :lmfao:

Oh wow, you're old too, like francis? Probably younger than francis at least, how old are you? Was that girlfriend you broke up with and hurt the feelings of in your story, was that the last sex ever?

I've never had sex at all. I've been married for a long time. Talk about weeeird.

I know one thing you have been and are often!

In my version of Buddhism, a person can achieve good while continuing to have sexual relations with their wife, and a person who has never had sex (like me) can achieve bad, meaning that sex is not overly emphasized except when and if it becomes an obstacle or obsession, but getting rid of it may not necessarily be useful, just like nothing at all seems very useful if people think that the goal is oblivion or non-existence and that natural death simply leads all to that anyway, then no disciplines are really needed, but one can improve their lives if sex is a real problem somehow. Sex can be the cause of bad things though, leading to harm and bad results if highly improper or in unethical conditions. Even so, I do realize that sex has had quite a bit of fuss made about it within Buddhist monk life and rules.


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2017, 09:53:21 pm »
How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
Do not answer to quick and resume it well.

To answer your question Nyom Samana, I have never given anything for the gain of liberation. But I am happy liberation existed and, when I went aimlessly searching, liberation did give to 'me'.

There is nothing to give, nothing to give up, nothing to renunciate, nothing to sacrifice. If you think you are giving up something, best to devote yourself to that 'thing' you are giving up because it is probably how nature created you to be.

 :fu:

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2017, 09:53:35 pm »
You are so quick to condemn.  You must be perfect.
Sorry. But maybe not. My post was about Samana Johann's ideas of success & failure, rather than yours or maybe mine  :teehee:

What are you ideas on these matters regarding sex, sex in Buddhism, the term and concept or category of "Householder", what you are or what you would qualify as, and other things?

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2017, 09:55:14 pm »
How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
Do not answer to quick and resume it well.

To answer your question Nyom Samana, I have never given anything for the gain of liberation. But I am happy liberation existed and, when I went aimlessly searching, liberation did give to 'me'.

There is nothing to give, nothing to give up, nothing to renunciate, nothing to sacrifice. If you think you are giving up something, best to devote yourself to that 'thing' you are giving up because it is probably how nature created you to be.

 :fu:

What exactly is liberation as you understand it, and the final liberation as you understand it, and how does it different at all, if it does, from eventually just being death and being gone forever?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 10:01:21 pm »
Oh wow, you're old too, like francis? Probably younger than francis at least, how old are you?

These aggregates were quite young when liberation gave some of itself.  :teehee: 

Quote
Was that girlfriend you broke up with and hurt the feelings of in your story, was that the last sex ever?

Like Spiny Norman ( :taz:), Buddhism is not understood here. To believe a 'self' causes another 'self' suffering is called 'nihilism' according to ultimate truth. Refer to Acela Sutta. Also, according to moral truth, when the girl was with me, she was practicing sexual misconduct and thus was heir to her actions (kamma), as Buddhism teaches.


Quote
I've never had sex at all. I've been married for a long time. Talk about weeeird.

So what? Whatever. Doesn't mean anything (unless you are like Nyom Samana, voyeuristically concerned with the intimate details of the lives of imaginary others).

 :teehee:

Quote
In my version of Buddhism, a person can achieve good while continuing to have sexual relations with their wife, and a person who has never had sex (like me) can achieve bad.

Maybe. But Buddhism is going beyond 'good' & 'bad'.  :om:


« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 10:08:52 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2017, 10:05:11 pm »
What exactly is liberation as you understand it, and the final liberation as you understand it, and how does it different at all, if it does, from eventually just being death and being gone forever?

Gone forever is not liberation. In Buddhism, liberation is called ceto-vimutti or liberation of heart-mind.

Anyway, I was having a conversation with Nyom Samana (rather than about your personal ideas about what Buddhism is).

 :namaste:

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2017, 10:26:47 pm »
Thank you for the replies VisuddhiRaptor, I appreciate it. I'm sorry if any trouble was caused by my posting, but I'd like to know more about what you are saying.

Like, I'm totally fine with the idea that right now I am not the same self that one may have a memory of, memory which is just existing now or is a thought that suggests a past or whatever.

I just want to understand a little better what you are suggesting.

What it appears you have been suggesting is that all people simply die forever, and that no discipline really counts for anything much as you are not even a person able to have consequences applied or something.

It appears that the one called Siddhartha Gautama for example, was not a multiplicity of people but was typically understood to be just a normal person, with a body, and the monks around him also, whose good and bad actions would lead to good or bad results, so they would try to gain good results or best results rather than to be more troubled or harmed.

I'd like to also know more about the difference between someone just dying, and someone just dying "liberated", because its sounding to me like both are just the same result.

It also seems to be that you're suggesting that a person being ethical or not or performing certain practices or not means nothing because they can not gain any value from the actions because they aren't even holding on to anything that results can be applied to.

A simple example might be, a person is born, then has their hand cut as a child, then later their hand is still cut, but I can agree with the suggestion that such is illusory and momentary appearance.

Anyway, without getting overly difficult, can you talk to me about these ideas and explain these things to me please, I really do want to thoroughly understand your ideas, what you're saying, how you're understanding things.

For me, I don't get too overly complex about it, but looking at the various things called Buddhist historically, it appears that whether they admit it or not, a person or an experience is going along and there are consequences to that experience based on what it does and then results apply to that experience person whatever.

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2017, 10:37:36 pm »
... haven't you been a monk. Why (guessing it was a female reason) did you disrobe, and what was the impact on freedom? Maybe you'll share your story why after joining the holy life, you gave up and returned to the houesholders life?
Never been a monk. Never been a 'householder'.  Haven't had sex in 30 years. Wander alone like a rhinoceros. Try to work it out. :lmfao:

Quote
"We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come."

Householder

Quote
The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... perception... fabrication is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home.

And how does one not live at home? Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions with regard to the property of form: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home.

Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of feeling... perception... fabrication...

Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of consciousness: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home

Non-householder

And Element (Dhammadhatu) honestly believes what he says? Like with all deeds, one needs to derive or gift one self first, if it touches another or not, is a different thing.

Overestimating oneself is not only direct harmful for oneself, it might annoy people on and on so that wandering alone is lesser a choice but an effect.

That he was not ordained must then have been read or remembered wrongly by my person but since Element is not dare to cheat, ly and miss guide others, this could be possible also the reason.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 11:03:47 pm by Samana Johann »
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2017, 10:51:16 pm »
How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
Do not answer to quick and resume it well.

To answer your question Nyom Samana, I have never given anything for the gain of liberation. But I am happy liberation existed and, when I went aimlessly searching, liberation did give to 'me'.

There is nothing to give, nothing to give up, nothing to renunciate, nothing to sacrifice. If you think you are giving up something, best to devote yourself to that 'thing' you are giving up because it is probably how nature created you to be.

 :fu:

There was never much doubt of you views... and it's even more a matter of pity that Element does not only display his known slandering of the tripple gem, stealing and missuse the Dhamma even from those who generously provided it, but missleads many upward.

Quote
"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

As it looks like that this has a long time history and will properbly not chance even in a worldtime and longer, it does not make sense to invest any effort in possible coming to mind.
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 01:29:27 am »
all people simply die forever...

Still stuck on your materialism, believing in 'people', 'selves' & 'death is physical'. This is the view of Mara (Satan).  :teehee:

Liberation of mind means never suffering; always happy; never dying; not even born.  :om:

It seems only Ground is fun here.  :namaste:

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: How much are you willing to give for the gain of liberation?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 01:44:40 am »
all people simply die forever...

Still stuck on your materialism, believing in 'people', 'selves' & 'death is physical'. This is the view of Mara (Satan).  :teehee:

Liberation of mind means never suffering; always happy; never dying; not even born.  :om:

It seems only Ground is fun here.  :namaste:

So what are you saying though. Please help me understand. Are you saying that you are not ethically responsible because you don't exist or something? Like because you are not a continuous person you are not going to get any consequences or experience any results? Just seriously please explain it to me in an easy way, I sincerely want to understand.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal