Author Topic: Meditations to Reduce Lust  (Read 8577 times)

Offline Timbo

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 04:54:47 pm »
Please excuse me for my unconventional reply.

Is lust during meditation necessarily a problem that must be solved? (For that matter, is lust in daily life necessarily a problem that must be solved? It all depends on you you act on the feeling, doesn't it?) Personally, I enjoy the feeling of lust. It's similar, in some ways, to the feeling I get when I smile in reaction to a beautiful spring morning. (Different, in other ways, of course.)

As far as I know, it's possible to observe the feeling of lust (it's really a complex combination of emotion, thought and physical sensation) without participating in it, just as one does with any other thought or feeling that might arise during meditation. Sometimes, lust is quite compelling, of course. But, at other times, anger, envy, sorrow, or pain, might be equally compelling.

Another option might be metta practice regarding lust, just as one might do with pain or anger: "Other people feel this." Pause to experience the feeling as completely as possible. "I wish them happiness and freedom from suffering." Repeat as necessary.

I'll be interested to read reactions to my point of view. Criticism gladly accepted here.

Cheers,   Timbo

Offline TongueTied

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 07:08:40 pm »
No, lust is not necessarily a problem.  It is just one of the many types of experience.  The reason we generally try to root it out during meditation is because it encourages attachment, which inhibits us from reaching the deepest states of meditation.  "You" might not be participating in lust, just observing, but that lust is still happening in the mind, and so attachment is still being encouraged in some way.  Noticing it as passively as possible is generally accepted as a good way to deal with it, and so you already are dealing with it by simply observing.  If your practice is focused on developing insight, then I think you can be satisfied with their being lust, and not worrying or caring about whether it comes or goes, just so long as it is observed in a detached manner.  If your practice is focused on concentration, then that little bit of lust will prevent absorptive states of meditation, and so it is prudent to figure out how to cleanse the mind of lust.

Offline Timbo

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 07:41:20 pm »
I have an excessive and inappropriate attachment to meditation.
Should I use lust to break this bad habit?

Hahahahaha
Funny!

Timbo

Offline Sonam Wangchug

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 11:19:47 pm »
That's great Timbo, but lord Buddha didn't advocate lust. Lust is something that something that disturbs mental tranquility, if one is just observing lust and not engaging in it, then that is different. If something is wholesome something is wholesome, if something is not, something is not. Lust, sexual desire, we can see what it has done in the world. If you like it on a personal level, that of course if up to you. However if not transformed, but in itself worldly lust is a hindrance.

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2010, 02:40:59 am »
Lust, sexual desire, we can see what it has done in the world.

Yes, sexual desire created it - no sex, no human realm. ;)

I agree with the rest of your post - it is the unwholesome expression of it, or inappropriate attachment to it, which may be harmful.

There is also a consequence to regarding sexual desire as inherently shameful or harmful, not the least of which is shown when those who are supposed to be celibate find harmful secret ways of expressing it - often involving children, for which I partly blame fear of discovery and expulsion.

Repression of natural desires is not the same as applying opponents in order to redirect the mind, as was discussed early in this thread.

Unwholesome lust is not just a problem in wider society. Religions need to face up to the issues within the monasteries and convents and the issues for the ordained living in the secular world.  And that includes Buddhism.

I cannot see why having a sex life in some way affects an ability to live with moral discipline or follow a path to enlightenment.
I have been taught by a married Lama with children, and by monks. They seem equally able to teach and, if anything, a monk teaching lay people has the disadvantage of not always being able to fully grasp what life as a householder may be like.  The reverse may be true - the householder may have difficulty understanding monastic life, but I think it is more common for the monastic to teach householders.

I have to own up that I see no purpose whatsoever in institutionalised celibacy, which I regard as anachronistic. It is a lifestyle choice, and I can't see it as an aspect of ordination which has any purpose. If an individual chooses that lifestyle that's fine, but it should not be the same for a child novice who has that imposed on them as part of the 'rules'.

Offline Sonam Wangchug

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2010, 06:14:36 pm »
Yeshe there is a distinction. Two teachers have received dharma teachings from are in fact married. I am not saying Sex is so dirty, The body is so impure, that's not really my trip. What I am talking about is that there is a Healthy expression and an unhealthy expression. There are obviously some very loving and healthy relationships that are not sexually dysfunctional.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2010, 03:36:25 am »
There are obviously some very loving and healthy relationships that are not sexually dysfunctional.

It's sometimes the case that people who aren't getting sex think about it the most. :)

Spiny

Yeshe

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2010, 03:47:39 am »
Yeshe there is a distinction. Two teachers have received dharma teachings from are in fact married. I am not saying Sex is so dirty, The body is so impure, that's not really my trip. What I am talking about is that there is a Healthy expression and an unhealthy expression. There are obviously some very loving and healthy relationships that are not sexually dysfunctional.

Apologies.  I agreed with your post.

The rest of my words, after the first 2 sentences, should have been in a separate post as it was not written directly in reply to yours.

I have a bad habit of not separating things out and end up rambling on disjointedly and leaving a person wondering what on earth I'm going on about; myself included at times! ;)

Offline TongueTied

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2010, 07:07:44 pm »
There are obviously some very loving and healthy relationships that are not sexually dysfunctional.

It's sometimes the case that people who aren't getting sex think about it the most. :)

Spiny

From my experience, it's people who just stopped getting sex who think about it the most.  :cheesy:

Offline Timbo

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2010, 05:25:37 pm »
I have found that one of the best meditations for reducing lust is death meditation, which goes through the processes of dying, and lays bare the disgusting nature of the body....

I wonder if all on this threat agree on the basic terminology. I understood the original message as a question about how to meditate when you're feeling horny. Maybe that's what Ben Yuan meant. But, then, as I think about it, maybe not.

The message could be a question about how Buddhist practice can help someone who is often troubled by sexual preoccupation in the course of day to day life.

If the latter, one way to cope is to find a friendly and willing partner, if you don't have one, or to have sex more often, if you do have a partner. That doesn't work for everyone, though. If Ben Yuan intends to be celibate, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

Ben Yuan, are you still there? Do you want to clarify your original question?

Hugs and puppies,


Timbo

Offline Ben Yuan

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 05:37:22 pm »
I have found that one of the best meditations for reducing lust is death meditation, which goes through the processes of dying, and lays bare the disgusting nature of the body....

I wonder if all on this threat agree on the basic terminology. I understood the original message as a question about how to meditate when you're feeling horny. Maybe that's what Ben Yuan meant. But, then, as I think about it, maybe not.

The message could be a question about how Buddhist practice can help someone who is often troubled by sexual preoccupation in the course of day to day life.

If the latter, one way to cope is to find a friendly and willing partner, if you don't have one, or to have sex more often, if you do have a partner. That doesn't work for everyone, though. If Ben Yuan intends to be celibate, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

Ben Yuan, are you still there? Do you want to clarify your original question?

Hugs and puppies,


Timbo
Certainly.

I meant, if one has lust: the meditation techniques which are best suited to opposing that emotion. I do intend to be celibate, however the techniques for one who is celibate and one who is not are the same (are they not?).

Best Wishes,
Ben Yuan

Offline Tsomo

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2010, 08:57:14 pm »
 :dharma:
I have through study understood that not transcended lust is a major contributing cause of keeping not fully accomplished buddhist practioners bound to endless compulsive rebirth with a deluded mind in any of the six realms of desire.

Is not  e n d l e s s   c o m p u l s i v e   r e b i r t h   with a   d e l u d e d   m i n d   in one of the six realms
of desire the ultimate nightmare? Even rebirth in the god realm? Half-god realm?
For me it is.
I don't like to waste time in the god realm.
The feelings of attachment there must be insurmountable, dying there, the letting go, worst than on a battle field where all is heart breaking and awful anyway.
Buddhism for me means eventually attaining freedom of choice where to be reborn for the benefit and highest enlightenment of all sentient beings.
Therefore I, a total beginner on the path, am long since celibate, and as a result feel better than ever before.
Being celibate is for me the Way To Go.
 
My friendships with men, and with husbands/partners from female friends are therefore problem-less.
My female friends don't see me as a potential threat for causing adultery.
No such tension is in the air.
They know that I am a happy celibate woman and that I will stay that way.
 
Some people say they think that I am puritanical, or have become a religious freak, or/and try to
convince me that I am suffering from being celibate, that it is unhealthy, etc.

I choose to see my much diminished, but lingering, not at all professionally transcended lust
as purely hormonal pressure,
as empty of self,
as a by product of having grown up in a society devoid of wisdom about sacred tantric sexual union
with a higher purpose,
see indulging in wordly lust, or sexual fantasies, as a dangerous illusion that has the power
to side track me from my bardo practice visualisation while going through the process of dying,
and can push me into some or another maybe karmically not so fortunate human rebirth
where moreover the Buddha Dharma is never heard of (worst nightmare),
besides into the dreadful lowest realms.
(Doubting rebirth I can not, doesn't make buddhist, nor cosmic sense to me).
  
When meditating, sometimes the imprints of self accumulated, and per chance seen (tv, film) sexual scenes can be seriously disturbing, ruin the meditation.
When visualizing bodies as bags full of brrrrrrrrrrrrr things doesn't help much I am advised to just get up,
forget about sitting meditation, and carry on with doing other things.
The above mentioned scary reasons help me having the 'bucket of cold water' experience during,
and outside meditation time.

These are the  :twocents: of a truly happy celibate child of Amitabha Buddha's Lotus family.  :namaste:




 

    
 
  

  
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 08:59:51 pm by Tsomo »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 04:46:02 am »
I would recommend any Buddhist to actively seek out experience of death and with corpses. It should be as integral to each of our lives as experiences of birth.

Do you think this is appropriate for beginners?  I'm not sure.

Spiny

Offline Timbo

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2010, 10:04:03 am »

I have through study understood that not-transcended lust is a major contributing cause of keeping not fully accomplished buddhist practioners bound to endless compulsive rebirth with a deluded mind in any of the six realms of desire.

I'm happily married. I treat my wife with kindness and courtesy, as she does me. Sometimes I am tempted to cheat with other women, but I would never do it. That would be cruel and stupid. I enjoy sex, sometimes I look forward to sex when I am doing other things. Sometimes I'm distracted by thoughts and feelings of sexual desire when I am meditating.

Is this the same thing as lust? Please define your terms.

If it is lust, would you call it "transcended lust" or "not-transcended lust"? How does one tell the difference?

Hugs and puppies,


Timbo

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Meditations to Reduce Lust
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2010, 10:26:45 am »
In general my definition of lust is an intense, mostly uncontrollable desire for or to do something.  For example, sexual congress is a biological drive.  Abating hunger, or starvation for food or oxygen is a biological drive, which mostly cannot be resisted.

With regard to violation of my marriage vows, this is not a matter of a biological drive which cannot be resisted.  It is more of a temptation.  However, when in the midst of coitus, during passionate lovemaking the biological responses take over and one's physical responses take over.  Additionally, one's behavior is reinforced in the sense of Skinnerian conditioning, which can lead to sexual addiction.

This is the type of lust that is addressed in The Precepts regarding sexual misconduct.

A gauge which can be helpful in determining if a type of sexual behavior is in fact "misconduct" is by asking the question, "Is someone being harmed?", which reflects back to the First Precept:  "Cause no harm...."

Hope this helps.

_/\_Ron


I have through study understood that not-transcended lust is a major contributing cause of keeping not fully accomplished buddhist practioners bound to endless compulsive rebirth with a deluded mind in any of the six realms of desire.

I'm happily married. I treat my wife with kindness and courtesy, as she does me. Sometimes I am tempted to cheat with other women, but I would never do it. That would be cruel and stupid. I enjoy sex, sometimes I look forward to sex when I am doing other things. Sometimes I'm distracted by thoughts and feelings of sexual desire when I am meditating.

Is this the same thing as lust? Please define your terms.

If it is lust, would you call it "transcended lust" or "not-transcended lust"? How does one tell the difference?

Hugs and puppies,


Timbo
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

 


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