Sitting positions

[lowonthetotem]

In my view the only really important thing about posture is keeping a straight back, partly for alertness and partly to open the chest.  As far as I am concerned all the other stuff is window dressing and cultural accretion.

Personally, I think the insistance that lotus posture was "easy" for the Buddha is cultural accretion/bias.   

I haven't insisted that.  My experience is that many Buddhists don't do enough sitting practice, and my general point is that it is counterproductive to introduce further difficulties like insisting on a particular posture.

Spiny

In that sentence I was referring to the "Asian people are more flexible" tangent that we got off on.  You insist the opposite.  That certain postures are necessarily difficult, most likely because they are difficult for you.  This is also cultural accretion, that is a Western cultural bias against sitting with your legs all twisted up like a pretzel.  If we are going to be done with cultural accretion, let's be done with it as opposed to simply picking one culture over another.

I think that if beginners start with a particular posture rather than just sitting in a chair, it actually helps them get out of their head more easily, and over time becomes easier and easier.  And yes, I think the initial discomfort and pain can be illustrative of how we tend to enjoy and not enjoy things, which is at the heart of meditation.  That we continue to meditate in the face of discomfort is the point.  Even sitting on a chair for a long period results in a numb ass and can be quite uncomfortable itself.  Of course, if there is some physical reason why people can't sit in lotus or simply just sit, then they can't.  That is why I mentioned the standing and reclined postures.  Walking meditation is also popular.

I think beginners probably don't do enough seated meditation in general, or do it very often for a period and then leave off and return and then leave off again, which is no better.  Sometimes, I think long time practicioners do too much.  At first, setting a time aside for meditation is useful because mindfulness is not our general frame of mind.  After a time, though, it becomes important to break down the barriers between "meditation time" and the rest of the day.  The story of polishing a roof tile into a mirror comes to mind.  Again, I think that practicing maintaining mindfulness in the face of pain and discomfort while sitting helps us to preserve or establish mindfulness in more difficult situations throughout the day but so would maintaining it in a noisy place or persevering and establishing mindfulness when we are decidedly distracted or our head is swimming with thoughts.

It would be ideal to be able to sit in meditation for several hours a day.  Retreats are often useful in this regard offering six or eight hours of formal meditation for several days in a row.  Obviously, if we are going to sit for a couple of hours or more at a time, uncomfortable postures would be counter-productive.  However, I think it is just as arbitrary to insist on such long periods of formal meditation as it is to insist on a certain posture, which I would like to point out that I have not insisted on.  I've simply pointed out that the difficulty of many postures is relative and that many postures have benefits, often because they are seen as difficult or painful.  Furthermore, I think that insisting on comfort, quiet, or even "alone time" can be just as counter productive as insisting on a specific time period or a specific posture, as they all establish some pre-existing conditions for meditation, depending on a person's lifestyle and situation.  My point has been that learning to actively establish mindfulness in any given situation overcomes all of these pre-conceived conditions.  In this vein, learning to establish mindfulness while we are uncomfortable can indeed be useful.

Can we distinguish here between mindfulness and absorbed meditation, low?

I think you can distinguish between "calm abiding" and "seeing things as they are."  But again, I think that it is important to apply insights gained in meditation to "real life."  Often, maintaining "calm abiding" allows us to apply insights gained in formal meditation to situations where our normal internal monologue would usually govern and rationalize less than skillful action rather seamlessly.  Insights gained through meditation may seem rather counterlogical in day to day situations, but the reality is that we are either practicing to establish skillful action/right view or we are practicing to establish unskillful action/wrong view.  We aren't ever really just marking time or in nuetral gear in this regard.  The urgency of practice is that we are always either reinforcing our deluded perspective or we are breaking down our deluded perspective.  Insights left on the cushion serve no purpose, except to make us feel smart or self-satisfied with our understanding. 

I've never considered mindfulness as "meditation light" or anything less potent than what (I think) you are referring to as "absorbed meditation."  I believe that the nature of realization is to establish such a profound and total absorption that it doesn't end when the bell rings.  It becomes permanently established.  Granted, this is something that most of us only make attempts at, but establishing too much distance between the two may be more counter-productive than we care to admit, in my opinion.  We are always either practicing to be ignorant or we are practicing not to be ignorant.  While our conditioned perspective persists, we are either breaking it down or we are reinforcing it at all times.  Ultimately, we are involved with making that choice every minute of every day.  The difficulty is that most often the self-reinforcing and ego serving tactics that we have practiced so perfectly all our life happen very automatically and seemingly without choice, but there are no coffee breaks or time off from this (that I characterize it as work says alot about my perspective on it.  I think it is far easier for many).  And, each time we allow it to happen automatically, we are further reinforcing that automaticity (is that a word).  In the thick of things, we may not be able to see what we can see during formal seated meditation, but once we come to an insight on the cushion it is imperative that we at least make attempts to keep it with us away from formal meditation because we have a lifetime of other "insights" that can easily over-ride our more correct view of things, mostly because these more ego oriented "insights" are more closely associated with pleasure, the absence of pain, and the presence of comfort.  Acheiving an insight during formal meditation doesn't necessarily do much to help us internalize it, in my experience, and there is no guarantee that the same insight will arise so clearly if we wait until the next day's meditation session (or the next watch's meditation for that matter) to revisit it.

[lowonthetotem]

In my view the only really important thing about posture is keeping a straight back, partly for alertness and partly to open the chest.  As far as I am concerned all the other stuff is window dressing and cultural accretion.

Personally, I think the insistance that lotus posture was "easy" for the Buddha is cultural accretion/bias.  In reality, the sitting itself is window dressing.  Why not attend the breath while driving, while arguing, while telling untruths, while stealing, while cheating on the wife, while getting plastered, and while just walking around, wasting time' and procrastinating?  It is the monkey mind that sets aside a time to sit and breath.  The truth is that there is no time to waste.  Breath is happening at all times.  Do we meditate on that which is liberating or do we meditate on that which binds us?  The truth is that meditation is always happening.  The question is, " Where do I place my meditation?"  Sounds very aloof and "Zen," but if you can think of it without labeling it, it makes all the difference.

Good post.

Even in Highest Yoga Tantra we wish to experience  the mind of the Yidam, eventually  retaining this 'reality' in all our activities, and most certainly don't want to limit this to a session on the mat.

At the basic level of course we can improve our lives greatly in terms of developing a calm mind, and we are also helping others at work and in the family.

I am not familiar with Tantric practice so much, but I have experienced how meditation can become a selfish thing, something we simply do for ourselves.  It can be a conveniant way to "check out" while still maintaining a positive reflection in the eyes of others.  Kind of like my wife thinking "Oh, it is good that he meditates so often.  It helps him act better and become angry less often," while I am thinking, "Finally some peace and quiet, I'll just sit lotus in here for a while and let her take care of the baby and finish doing the dishes."  That is an extreme example, but even just sitting with the mind set that we want to experience "enlightenment" for ourselves is rather selfish.

I played flute at a "Day of Mindfulness" during a walking meditation over the weekend, and I had to work very hard to maintain the perspective that I wanted to play well so that those listening would have a pleasurable experience rather than I wanted to play well so they all would think I am a shakuhachi rock star.  I had to actively maintain Right Motivation.  It was challenging.

[lowonthetotem]

As a child we had to sit cross legged on the hard floor for school assembly and we were all skinny due to the shortages following WW2, a bit like your  "average asian".
Would have been the perfect time to find the Dhamma!
 

with Metta

I hear you.  It would have been great to find Buddhism before I discovered sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

[Blue Garuda]

As a child we had to sit cross legged on the hard floor for school assembly and we were all skinny due to the shortages following WW2, a bit like your  "average asian".
Would have been the perfect time to find the Dhamma!
 

with Metta

I hear you.  It would have been great to find Buddhism before I discovered sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

Ya mean you wish you'd known what posture is best for each?  LOL

[Spiny le Norman]

I think you can distinguish between "calm abiding" and "seeing things as they are."  But again, I think that it is important to apply insights gained in meditation to "real life." 

Yes, I agree, insights on the cushion need to be carried off the cushion, and it's a process of positive re-inforcement.  But I still maintain that many Buddhists don't spend long enough on the cushion, and without that foundation it's difficult to maintain mindfulness off the cushion.

Spiny

[lowonthetotem]

I think that what matters more about the amount of seated formal meditation more than simple duration of frequency is getting proper instruction or having the proper motivation or having the proper (Right) view.  Without this, sitting simply turns out to be an exercise that strengthens all the wrong muscles, so to speak.  I think it can actually benefit beginners to meditate for shorter periods daily, discuss their experience with a teacher or return to the meditation manual they are using to verify the direction in which they are headed, and provided things check out, move on to longer periods and more frequency.  When we don't practice doing something correctly, we are practicing doing it incorrectly.  I don't think that necessarily has to do with postures or even what goes on in our heads during meditation.  I think it has more to do with checking on why we are meditating.

At sangha sittings I often notice myself and others changing our gaze suddenly or shifting on our seat or cushion as soon as the bell is rung.  Similarly, during chanting we may proceed swiftly to the next page on the program when we have finished the previous chant.  Maintaining stillness through the bells and shifting very gently out of our posture or seat, as well as lingering in silence after a chance, can help to nurture mindfulness/absorption as we move away from our meditation space/posture and into the world at large.  It is popular in Chan to compare this to gently holding an infant in your arms as you go on throughout the day.  In this way, how we end our formal meditation has a great bearing on how we can carry it off the cushion.

[Spiny le Norman]

I think that what matters more about the amount of seated formal meditation more than simple duration of frequency is getting proper instruction or having the proper motivation or having the proper (Right) view. 

Of course quality is important, but quantity is also necesary to make progress.

Spiny

[Optimus Prime]

When we don't practice doing something correctly, we are practicing doing it incorrectly. 

Well said.  Because if we keep practicing doing something incorrectly, then we are just reinforcing bad habits.  So does practice make perfect?  Not necessarily.  It's perfect practice that makes perfect.

Maintaining stillness through the bells and shifting very gently out of our posture or seat, as well as lingering in silence after a chance, can help to nurture mindfulness/absorption as we move away from our meditation space/posture and into the world at large.  It is popular in Chan to compare this to gently holding an infant in your arms as you go on throughout the day.  In this way, how we end our formal meditation has a great bearing on how we can carry it off the cushion.

Excellent pointers.

[heybai]

In reality, the sitting itself is window dressing.  Why not attend the breath while driving, while arguing, while telling untruths, while stealing, while cheating on the wife, while getting plastered, and while just walking around, wasting time' and procrastinating?  It is the monkey mind that sets aside a time to sit and breath.  The truth is that there is no time to waste.  Breath is happening at all times.  Do we meditate on that which is liberating or do we meditate on that which binds us?  The truth is that meditation is always happening.  The question is, " Where do I place my meditation?"  Sounds very aloof and "Zen," but if you can think of it without labeling it, it makes all the difference.

Thank you for reminding us.   It's all there in the 8FP of course: not just samādhi but ethics and wisdom are to be heeded.   No mistake either that "Right View/Understanding" is mentioned first. 

[Spiny le Norman]

When we don't practice doing something correctly, we are practicing doing it incorrectly. 

Well said.  Because if we keep practicing doing something incorrectly, then we are just reinforcing bad habits.  So does practice make perfect?  Not necessarily.  It's perfect practice that makes perfect.

But learning how to practice correctly takes a lot of time and application.

Spiny

[Optimus Prime]

But learning how to practice correctly takes a lot of time and application.

Yes.  Hence why you've got to constant use your wisdom to monitor your progress, compare it with the Sutras, compare it with teachers you respect, be aware whether what you're doing is leading towards calm, wisdom, insights... and make corrections.  So constantly refining your technique.

It's similar to how a basketball player constantly refines their jump shots, ball handling, defense - constantly making corrections from feedback from their coaches, team mates, how opponents react to their moves and from their own awareness. 

It's also similar to a boxer refining their punching technique so that with practice, over time, a punch has less extraneous actions - you're not wasting movements or energy on unnecessary actions - you've aligned your structure, power and weight transfer so that your punch yields maximum power with minimal movement and minimal effort - this can only come with time, feedback from coaches and sparring partners and opponents and self awareness.

Similarly in meditation, you've got to experiment and feel how your mind is as you're sitting.  Because sometimes, you can read all the books in meditation that you want, but it's different to when you sit and thinking, "Oh, the book told me to do step A, B, and what was that next step?" and further you may even be misinterpreting what some books are saying or it may be describing a meditation technique that doesn't suit your temperament/personality.

So you've got to feel your way into meditation but keep your wisdom and wits about you.  When you're meditating, you've got to know for yourself whether you're heading towards greater peace and calm, greater clarity and insight - these are some signs that you are progressing on the right path.  If you're heading towards more agitation, restlessness or dullness - these are sometimes signs of going the wrong way (although sometimes, dullness is just a temporary state and if you just endure it, it will pass and greater clarity and insight will come afterwards).  Sometimes the lethargy you feel during meditation is just a sign that the room is too stuff and you need more fresh air, or it could be a sign that your body is in desperate need of rest - so you just rest and fall asleep in meditation if you need to (or even sleep and then meditate after you've finished) - once you wake up, continue and you should feel renewed energy.

It's also similar to when you're driving - you've got to constantly make adjustments on the steering wheel to get where you want to go to, constantly use the accelerator and the brakes in timely manner for safety.  Same for meditation - use your wisdom, be aware of what's going on and in general, head towards calm and stillness.

[Spiny le Norman]

Same for meditation - use your wisdom, be aware of what's going on and in general, head towards calm and stillness.

I agree, and I think everyone has a slightly different way of approaching this.  I always encourage people to be creative and find what works best for them.  And it definitely helps to share ones experience with others, particularly those with more experience.

Spiny

[lowonthetotem]

The biggest pitfall I have found is that "understandings" at which we arrive during meditation that reinforce our own opinions and beleifs are often very "calming" or "clarifying" in a specific way that further reinforces the assurances that self-hood provides.  I think this is the most difficult part of meditation for many people, beginners and the well practiced.  I think the real guide post on which we can rely is whether our meditation makes us quieter, inside and outside our heads.  Can we really notice more patience and less anger occurring?  When we ask ourselves these questions, it may be a good idea to ask those around us what they think as well, or maybe mark down on a pad the dates and times when we "lose it," to see if they are indeed becoming less frequent.  Of course, my approach to it stems from own anger issues, which were the impetus of my meditation practice.  Other folks may have different "lose it" issues, but I think "quiet" is a more exact measure of progress or "getting it right" than even "calm," "clarity," or "insight."

Just splitting hairs.