Sitting Zazen -- knee questions

[heybai]

For about a year and a half I was doing sitting practice by sitting in a chair or on my bed.  As part of a new class, I have turned to sitting half lotus, which I actually kind of like but lately my knee (right kneed) has been acting up.  It was sore one day last week, and again this morning. 

I did a little meniscus tear on this knee in 2002, so I am used to some soreness and even some minor swelling after exercise.  Gradually, my knee seems to adjust to new activities so I am hoping this will be the case.  Sitting cross-legged rather than lotus might be an option but I don't feel very balanced that way.  If it becomes an issue, I'll simply go back to sitting in a chair, but I want to try this traditional zazen.  I don't want to give up so easily.

Any pointers on dealing with knee pain such as I have described?

[catmoon]

The problem arises because of stiffness in the hip joint. The knee will never bend in the direction full lotus requires, so you are destroying your knee. What is needed is a stretching exercise program that focusses on hip joint mobility, thereby relieving the stress on your knee(s).

Not hard to find on ze web.

IMHO the symptoms you are experiencing are warnings that your knee is on the verge of sudden and catastrophic failure. If you are lucky, you will find your leg buckling under you while walking normally. If not so lucky, you will set up in half lotus, relax, and be treated to the sound of Kentucky Fried Chicken being torn apart, accompanied by pain the likes of which you probably have never before experienced, total loss of leg function, and serious knee surgery.

[heybai]

Are you serious?  I am not forcing anything.  I stopped once when I felt discomfort.  I am doing half lotus, not full.

[catmoon]

Are you serious?  I am not forcing anything.  I stopped once when I felt discomfort.  I am doing half lotus, not full.

Let me be perfectly serious then. I have had those little discomforts and they have led to spontaneous leg buckling, even well after I stopped half lotus. A leg buckle is like stepping on air, it's like there is no leg there to support you and you have to catch yourself or hit the dirt. The very next stride is usually normal. Ish. Just from my personal experience, you are at risk of buckling for about ten days from the cessation of practice.

As for catastrophic failure, well it really does sound like ripping apart KFC and it really does hurt, I've been very close to a couple, which occurred on the football field. While I do not know if it can happen in the zendo, I have no reason to believe it can't either.

Look at your lower leg as a two foot long lever. When you wrench the leg into position, that lever is acting on the knee joint, without about a 10:1 mechanical advantage. Possibly more. Allowing for a little unfortunate geometry in the joint, it's quite possible you are asking some rather small bit of cartilage to support half the weight of a Volkswagen.

So do the hip exercises. Please. A wrecked knee is never the same again.

[Blue Garuda]

Yes. it's all in the hips.

You could always try seiza posture as this is acceptable.  I have used this for years as my hips rotate easily inwards but not outwards and nobody has ever been able to change this. I also used seiza in martial arts for decades.  Nowadays, if I feel I need to, I use a stool  - better than a chair for your core muscles.

I've never seen any plausible spiritual reason for adopting a mode of sitting which is used in India, Japan etc.  There are no ckakras in the legs, but too much compression of the legs can be harmful. ;)

What is important is that the back is vertical and straight, not what your legs are doing underneath.  It is counter-productive to be uncomfortable when trying to focus, unless you want the pain to be a useful test of focus.

 I've found that the loss of any flexibility is rarely able to be regained in later life.   That's why I advised my kids to keep on stretching as this helps them to retain flexibility into adulthood.

One thing which is very useful is to keep getting down to the floor and rising from the floor - both in  meditation and in prostrations. Those cultures where it is normal have fewer falls and broken hips in their elderly population, I've been told.

And as Catmoon saiys, once you've wrecked a knee it is not only hard to heal, but will almost certainly become arthritic with age.   I have to take a stick everywhere when walking in case a knee decides to ignore my instructions and do its own thing! ;)



 

[heybai]

Whoa!  Thanks for these voices of experience, guys!  I am going to work on flexibility and return to my chair in the meantime.  And to repeat, I am working with a minor knee injury.  It feels like that is acting up so I haven't been too concerned.  Although I am now a middle aged male, I have in years past been more flexible than most so I am not used to these sorts of struggles.

[lowonthetotem]

You always want to err on the side of caution, but I wouldn't say that anything you described suggests imminent joint failure of your knee.  I am not a doctor or anything but i worked as a trainer for a long time.  I would use the same kind of judgement you use when you exercise.  If the discomfort you experience lasts significantly longer after meditation than it does after exercise, then seated meditation on the floor in general may be an issue for you.  Certainly your knee, and the rest of your posture would benefit from stretching your hips.  Your knee injury is nine years old now.  I am not saying that means it is non-existent, but I would tend to think you would be a good judge of what it can and cannot take, especially if exercise is part of your usual routine.  Just like any kind of physical practice, anything new takes some getting used to and may involve some discomfort.  In addition to stretching the hip, you may want to strengthen your quads and calves, which insert and originate from and across the knee.  The quads especially guide the patellar fin, keeping it from rubbing against the miniscus.  This is oftent he source of non-specific knee pain and swelling, especially if the miniscus is deformed in some way like a tear, the scar tissue resulting from a tear, or some kind of inflammation.  This can be done by getting up and down off the floor, but the further we bend the knee past 90 degrees the more likely we are to injur the joint.  Sitting down and getting up from a bench may be more suited to someone with and existing injury.  If you did not get arthroscopic surgery done when you had the tear, you may need to consider in the future.  Naproxin based anti-inflamatories are also quite useful.  Maybe try sitting half lotus a few times a week, instead of going to it every time right away.  If you exercise regularly, you are familiar with building up to things.  At its core, meditation is a physical practice and follows many of the same trends and patterns as physical exercise.  Pain aside, a certain amount of discomfort can be beneficial to meditation.

[Blue Garuda]

In the absence of a spouse, small child, or ostrich eggs, a useful Zafu cushion or bench substitute may be fashioned from 1 Golden Retriever or 2 Persian Cats. If you have smaller animals with less fur you may need to have as many as 3 Manx Cats or 6 Hairless Mexican dogs.

Mixing species is not recommended as they may be prone to sudden failure if incompatible.

I have had considerable success with a zafu of 18 Parakeets, as they not only provide a lovely soft down but also remember teachings and repeat them for you.

Mice and terrapins may be usefully employed, but only as stuffing inside the zafu - again, ensure the species are separated as mixing them may be deemed cruel.

You must exercise common-sense, however, and skunks, porcupines, scorpions and Spiny Normans are not recommended, other than as seats of honour for unexpected guests.

Finally, I would advise that if snakes are to be used as a cushion, it is vital to connect them mouth to tail, mouth to tail, Ouroboros-style, finishing with a free tail.  If Anacondas or Pythons are scarce, you may collect some Cobras from your garden as these have the additional quality of being able to deaden any pain from your knee, as do Kraits, which are also more decorous.  Avoid using the Fer de Lance, which I can vouchsafe does not enjoy bearing human weight. ;)

Never, ever sit on an ordained person, however comfortable they may look.

Good luck.

[catmoon]

Yep, FreeSangha definitely offers those gems of practical information that you just can't find anywhere else.


Today's big question: Himalayan or Persian? Does Avalokittyshvra have the answer?

[heybai]

You always want to err on the side of caution, but I wouldn't say that anything you described suggests imminent joint failure of your knee.  I am not a doctor or anything but i worked as a trainer for a long time.  I would use the same kind of judgement you use when you exercise.  If the discomfort you experience lasts significantly longer after meditation than it does after exercise, then seated meditation on the floor in general may be an issue for you.  Certainly your knee, and the rest of your posture would benefit from stretching your hips.  Your knee injury is nine years old now.  I am not saying that means it is non-existent, but I would tend to think you would be a good judge of what it can and cannot take, especially if exercise is part of your usual routine.  Just like any kind of physical practice, anything new takes some getting used to and may involve some discomfort.  In addition to stretching the hip, you may want to strengthen your quads and calves, which insert and originate from and across the knee.  The quads especially guide the patellar fin, keeping it from rubbing against the miniscus.  This is oftent he source of non-specific knee pain and swelling, especially if the miniscus is deformed in some way like a tear, the scar tissue resulting from a tear, or some kind of inflammation.  This can be done by getting up and down off the floor, but the further we bend the knee past 90 degrees the more likely we are to injur the joint.  Sitting down and getting up from a bench may be more suited to someone with and existing injury.  If you did not get arthroscopic surgery done when you had the tear, you may need to consider in the future.  Naproxin based anti-inflamatories are also quite useful.  Maybe try sitting half lotus a few times a week, instead of going to it every time right away.  If you exercise regularly, you are familiar with building up to things.  At its core, meditation is a physical practice and follows many of the same trends and patterns as physical exercise.  Pain aside, a certain amount of discomfort can be beneficial to meditation.

Thanks for this, lott.

I've tried sitting cross legged since CM's crispy chicken image scared me, but I don't feel as balanced.  Half lotus definitely feels easier, both for meditation and for the knee.  Last night I sat half lotus till I started feeling uncomfortable and, just to be safe, switched to simple cross legged.  I initially felt no discomfort but then it returned.  The pain is not severe, nor does it last after I sit, but it is sometimes sore the next morning.  It isn't sore today, so perhaps the variation helped.

I did not have surgery on the tear nine years ago.  It wasn't serious enough for that, I was told.  It causes soreness, such as the soreness I feel after zazen.  I never ignore strong pain or warning signs such as those you point to here.

In the meantime, I have started some gentle yoga stretching.  My wife is teaching me.    

[heybai]

Never, ever sit on an ordained person, however comfortable they may look.

This never would have occurred to me.  It sounds like you speak from experience.

I have tried the cats during impromptu sits.  I think it might work but for the screaming and scratching.

Did someone sit on Spiny Norman?  Is that what happened?

[catmoon]

 Just for comparison...

Case A

Catmoon sits on a bare floor with a bathroom scale under one foot. In a cross legged postion, the scale reads about 20 pounds when the other leg is not resting on the first. Using the scale to lift the foot, either one can be placed in the half lotus position without shifting the scale much from the 20 pound reading. This is with the non-lotus leg fully extended.

With the non-lotus leg tucked under, the lotus foot registers 28 pounds and 34 pounds, depending which foot is raised.

When attempting full lotus, it was possible to get the second foot in position with a reading of approximately 58 pounds. I didn't try doing it "left-footed".

Dusting off the calculator and using lower leg = 1' 9.5" and knee width 3.5" I get a mechanical advantage of not less than 6.14, and possible much more depending on the actual geometry of the joint and where it's attachment points are. That means that something in there is holding off a torque of 105 foot-lbs., or a force of 360 lbs. At guess I'd say in reality it's about twice that. Afterwards my knee slowly became slightly achy, but there was no pain at all during measurement.

Case B

Three Tibetan guys who I saw in a video were attending training with an advanced old shaman type fellow. At the guru's command, all three leapt into the air, and without aid from their hands, all three landed on the ground in full lotus with the feet right up against the abdomen.

Editted for physics accuracy

[lowonthetotem]

The pain is not severe, nor does it last after I sit, but it is sometimes sore the next morning.

Tendons and ligaments are just parts of muscles (strictly speaking only tendons are, but the tissue is all coming from the same building blocks, just for the detail police), so they often experience the same kinds of soreness that one gets from lift weights when they are taxed.  You don't want to overtax them, torque-wise, stretching them, or, within the knee specifically, the shearing force of stetching the cruciat ligaments against the upper and lower bony parts of the knee.  This is increased exponentially when the joint passes 90 degrees, which it will inevitably do in lotus or half lotus, so care is needed.  But it is not a weight bearing exercise against gravity in the usual sense, and tendons and ligaments can develop like muscles.  I would consider sitting half lotus one day until modest discomfort, and if your knee is sore the next day, sit in a chair or on your bed again.  Alternating like that will allow the knee to adjust.  It is a hinge joint, but it does allow for some degree of flexion against the hinge naturally.  It isn't that you want to increase that flexion in anyway.  Stretching the colateral ligaments themselves isn't desireable, but that doesn't mean they cannot be taxed for a certain period of time, which would likely increase week by week.  Eventually, I would think that the next day soreness would stop.  If it didn't, I might consider just sitting in a chair.  Middle age may keep you from being a kick-ass kung fu fighter, but it doesn't have to keep you from meditating, knee or not.

Periodization for stretching muscles, like the ones in your hips, is entirely different.  Stretching is, if done properly, uncomfortable 100% of the time, although the degree of discomfort is often highly subjective.  Muscles tend to have alot of memory and return to unstretched lengths within 24 hours of normal activity, so you have to stretch daily, preferrably twice daily, to achieve improved flexibility in most cases.  Otherwise you are really just maintaining where you are in the strictest sense.  Less frequent stretching may improve minor non-specific back pain and improve posture to some degree, but it won't fix that pressure on your knee in either of the lotus positions.  In the long run, this will be the key to sitting for extended periods in those postions.

[lowonthetotem]

but will almost certainly become arthritic with age.

Unfortunately, this is likely to be the case since there is an existing, unrepaired injury.  The degree to which exercise, flexibility training, and continued movement exaccerbates or ameliorates the issue seems to open to debate for most people.  However, most research shows that although care and cautiion is needed, diminished mobility tends to worsen joint health while continued or gradually increasing mobility tends to improve joint health.

[heybai]

My kick-ass kung-fu fighting days are a thing of the past, but O you should have seen me back in the day...  

Seriously, I do think I know my limits.  If anything, I generally prone to be too cautious.  I don't want a little soreness become an excuse for not sitting.  As I have noted here and in other threads, I do moderate exercise on this knee nearly every day, so I am not starting from zero.  

The lateral stress is what is causing me soreness, and I know from experience that this is the spot of the old tear, so I think I am pushing bone on bone in one tiny place.  When I walk a lot (15k per day and up) I get this same soreness.

Thanks again, lowonthetotem.

CM, thanks for the physics lessons.  Maybe we can invite Ben to double check your analysis.