Author Topic: To the bardo and never to return?  (Read 1881 times)

Offline heybai

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To the bardo and never to return?
« on: June 21, 2013, 10:38:35 pm »
>>I think all positions have been adequately represented.  I'm locking this thread

I think I'm going to move this thread to the bardos to review ALL 300+ posts.

I'll prune the posts ruthlessly and may or may not return and unlock it.<<

I would ask that you do not do this.

Offline Lobster

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 10:43:24 pm »
My thoughts too  :namaste:

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 11:05:05 pm »
Why lock the thread if people are speaking on it?

If nobody wants to talk about the subject,then the thread will disappear on its own.
It doesnt need someone to kill it.

Offline former monk john

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 11:31:01 pm »
Where did all the avatars go, I had to reload mine. I was actually learning quite a bit from the no self thread, even if many of us were quite rude in the way we disagreed. I agree that would be a good thing to change. Respect......
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline Barah

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 01:22:50 am »
Just be careful mods that you don't lock down the forum.
Number of mods is almost equal the numbers of the rest of active users.
This indicates that the forum is dead, or dying. One or two new belligerent mods, will only speed up the process.
I personally do not like to waste my time typing stuff that will be deleted of locked down, so until the situation is clear, I will restrain from posting anything.

Offline reef

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 01:46:26 am »
time to move on methinks peace and love to you all :D

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Offline former monk john

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 03:28:15 am »
I don't think the problem is that we might not appreciate a policy of right speech, no personal attacks, disagreement allowed but always presented respectfully. But the problem is if you put one or two people in charge of decideing who's right speech and who isn't, those  people need to have gained and keep the respect of most of the forum members, if that isn't happening its not healthy. Monkey Mind and Spiny Norman where good examples of moderators we could appreciate and respect, Lobster and Go Get are just starting out so it might be a good idea to reserve judgement, but, in my opinion, an overly heavy moderating hand is not going to be appreciated by many long term members.

Remember more than a couple of us are here because we were banned from more heavily moderated forums, changing this into just another heavily moderated forum is not going to make this a FREE sangha, is it.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 05:09:22 am by former monk john »
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

GoGet

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 05:16:58 am »
>>I think all positions have been adequately represented.  I'm locking this thread

I think I'm going to move this thread to the bardos to review ALL 300+ posts.

I'll prune the posts ruthlessly and may or may not return and unlock it.<<

I would ask that you do not do this.

I'd like to bring it back, but there's a couple things going on.

The thread in question has gone past 300 postings - that's a long thread on any forum.  That's not a Bad Thing, but it's my suspicion that much of that  is just noise - people being rude, personal attacks, sheer nonsensical posting, etc.  It also seems that people are talking past each other, gainsaying and as a result there really isn't that much discussion going on.    I want to take some time to review and trim it down perhaps and give the active parties time to cool their jets a bit.

The size of the thread also prevents it from being useful to visitors. People are less likely to get to the Good Stuff if their having to wade through pointless noise.  Now it may be that the thread can't be trimmed down, but that needs to be reviewed in a proper context.

I'm starting my review directly and will be done sometime tomorrow.

Offline former monk john

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 05:46:36 am »
I thought of starting new thread; "We know what our self is not; the five aggregates. But what are we, what am I"

 Good idea or bad????
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

GoGet

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2013, 06:15:46 am »
I thought of starting new thread; "We know what our self is not; the five aggregates. But what are we, what am I"

 Good idea or bad????


I dunno John,

Let me say this first:

I'm about 1/2-way through the thread  and have been doing this:  One is removing all the "Just Sit" and pruning/editing off topic postings.  At page 10 everyone's still being civil.  I now expect to be though my review sometime tonight and expect to unlock it then.

If you want to start a spin-ff thread, do it.  What I'd like to know is this:  There's been a lot of talk around what the self is not, assuming the self exists substantially, if it does exist, what is it?  There's no reason the current thread can't address such questions, it just isn't (as of page 10  :wink1:)

I'm of the belief that the self, as it appears/arises, does not have inherent existence.

Offline songhill

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2013, 08:21:46 am »
Why lock the thread if people are speaking on it?

If nobody wants to talk about the subject,then the thread will disappear on its own.
It doesnt need someone to kill it.

It has been my experience over many years that threads, or rather topics that deal with issues like nirvana, self vs. no-self, the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, Lankavatara Sutra, etc., have a short life span. What is the reason for this?

It is not because of a particular forum itself such as Dharma Wheel, it is because Western popular Buddhism, or what I like to call "pop Buddhism" is not actually Buddhism but an ongoing discussion of what is believed and expected to be Buddhism. In other words, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. This sets the stage for problems.

One good example of Western Buddhism is Stephen Batchelor's "secular Buddhism." It's really not Buddhism at all. There is hardly any mention of nirvana in Batchelor's books, if at all (as far as unpacking it). It truly is a Westernized secular work in which the transcendent has been eliminated. But the Buddha's discourses are much different. Everywhere present is the transcendent including the way to reach it. By no stretch of the imagination is Buddhism worldly (i.e., secular). Far from it.

As expected every Buddhist forum is going to be more or less a battle ground. What the battle boils down to is "Buddhism of the discourses" vs "Buddhism as I want to believe it" and "the transcendent" vs "the secular."

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2013, 01:16:23 pm »
I thought of starting new thread; "We know what our self is not; the five aggregates. But what are we, what am I"

 Good idea or bad????


I dunno John,

Let me say this first:

I'm about 1/2-way through the thread  and have been doing this:  One is removing all the "Just Sit" and pruning/editing off topic postings.  At page 10 everyone's still being civil.  I now expect to be though my review sometime tonight and expect to unlock it then.

If you want to start a spin-ff thread, do it.  What I'd like to know is this:  There's been a lot of talk around what the self is not, assuming the self exists substantially, if it does exist, what is it?  There's no reason the current thread can't address such questions, it just isn't (as of page 10  :wink1:)

I'm of the belief that the self, as it appears/arises, does not have inherent existence.
I can answer those questions
where does your belief that the self as it appears/arises, does not have inherent existence?
if you chose to reopen the thread post this question on it.

Offline Lobster

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2013, 04:05:18 pm »
Quote
As expected every Buddhist forum is going to be more or less a battle ground. What the battle boils down to is "Buddhism of the discourses" vs "Buddhism as I want to believe it" and "the transcendent" vs "the secular."

 :smack:
People, situation, Dharmas, Sangha change.
 :rbmus:
What we need is more Buddhas. Wasn't the Shakyamuni Buddha a militant?




Offline former monk john

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2013, 04:28:29 pm »
Are you sure you don't mean pacifist??? seriously
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline songhill

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Re: To the bardo and never to return?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2013, 04:30:30 pm »
Quote
As expected every Buddhist forum is going to be more or less a battle ground. What the battle boils down to is "Buddhism of the discourses" vs "Buddhism as I want to believe it" and "the transcendent" vs "the secular."

 :smack:
People, situation, Dharmas, Sangha change.
 :rbmus:
What we need is more Buddhas. Wasn't the Shakyamuni Buddha a militant?

I think we have to take into consideration that Buddhism has not been in the West very long. While it draws the attention of westerners with its strange, exotic Asian cultural forms, there is still a huge amount of ignorance in regard to what the Buddha really taught. If one studies the discourses of the Buddha, both Nikayan and Mahayana it rings transcendent, there is no doubt. But this fact doesn't make it to the surface of Buddhism in the West that is practiced—it is still very much superficial. This, I think, is just part of the learning curve. Forums like this help with that curve as long as they avoid censorship.

 


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