The current kerfuffle

[catmoon]

I no longer have access to the hot thread in the danger zone. I have recieved no communications from the moderators, other than a threat of legal action from M. Yeshe.


I would like to know if the thread has been taken down, or if M. Yeshe has taken unilateral action without consulting the other mods.

[Ngawang Drolma]

Hi Catmoon,

The thread in question is no longer available for posting and discussion. 
It was had become unproductive and was no longer useful for the community.

Best,
Laura 

[catmoon]

Hi Catmoon,

The thread in question is no longer available for posting and discussion. 
It was had become unproductive and was no longer useful for the community.

Best,
Laura 

Bow. 

[santamonicacj]

The thread in question is no longer available for posting and discussion.  
It had become unproductive and was no longer useful for the community.

True. But it sure did stir up some excitement there for a little while!

                 

[gregkavarnos]

Hi Catmoon,

The thread in question is no longer available for posting and discussion. 
It was had become unproductive and was no longer useful for the community.

Best,
Laura 

Good call!
 

[Yeshe Zopa]

To clarify, in case the thread reappears intact or edited:

I unilaterally withdraw any words of mine which are subsequently shown to be incorrect.


Others may wish to similarly withdraw anything later found to be incorrect assertions.

[Thao]

i actually asked to have all my words withdrawn, if not all i can suggest some. how do we know the full karma of such things, not just my own words but that of this subject? yesterday i calmed down and began the practice of metta meditation on the situation and that felt more productive. but i was glad to have learned what was going on.

in metta, fragrant herbs

[Thao]

in case the tread comes back up and you all see that some of my posts are still there, i only asked for one to be removed and then left the rest at their discretion. i don't wish to mess up a thread, and someone told me that my posts were not bad. i never know about these things.

[conebeckham]

I do not withdraw any of my words.  If they are later shown to be wrong, then I will learn from my mistakes, and admit that they were mistaken.   They, like all manifestations, are merely of a given time and place, subject to the laws governing all conditioned phenomena.

Further, I find it interesting that there are threads that exist here which are very pro-DS, even to the point of allowing postings of HHDL's "praises" to that entity, which I am quite certain HHDL will "admit were mistaken."  Yet a thread which takes a negative, anti-DS turn gets wiped.

If this is truly a board that wishes to express all sides of any given issue, perhaps an Anti-DS thread, or one openly critical, and supportive of HHDL's current position, should be welcomed.

[Yeshe Zopa]

I do not withdraw any of my words.  If they are later shown to be wrong, then I will learn from my mistakes, and admit that they were mistaken.   They, like all manifestations, are merely of a given time and place, subject to the laws governing all conditioned phenomena.

Further, I find it interesting that there are threads that exist here which are very pro-DS, even to the point of allowing postings of HHDL's "praises" to that entity, which I am quite certain HHDL will "admit were mistaken."  Yet a thread which takes a negative, anti-DS turn gets wiped.

If this is truly a board that wishes to express all sides of any given issue, perhaps an Anti-DS thread, or one openly critical, and supportive of HHDL's current position, should be welcomed.

The OP was not about DS, but about HHDL's words relating to Shugden practitioners. Sadly, it quickly strayed but I saw a fair amount of support both for and against the OP topic and the topic to which it strayed . It now needs to be examined by the staff to see if it can be usefully restored or not.   As I was the OP I have asked to stand aside from that, if it happens.

The Dorje Shugden threads to which you refer are not discussion threads but descriptions of practice within a tradition, just as there are threads describing practices in other traditions on the board.  They are not intended for discussion but for information, and usually make that clear.

Anyone may start a thread on any topic and ask other members to respect its purpose, and if they are concerned it may be subject to attacks or derailment, they can ask for it to be locked and add info post-by-post via a member of the forum staff.

I don't think anyone would welcome an 'anti' thread about anything which is another's practice, as you put it. 'Critical' means analytical, which is fine - that's what most of the threads here are for - analysis of Buddhadharma.

There is no bias here among the staff.  If you wish to start a thread praising or examining the teachings of HHDL, please do so.   If you wish it to be for information, choose a suitable forum such as in Vajrayana and make it clear in the OP.  Start one in another forum if you wish for discussion, or in the Danger Zone if you are open to a more robust discussion. However, ToS apply in all forums. ;)

[Tsongkhapafan]

About the thread, I do feel it was a pity to remove it as there was some good stuff on it, particularly the examination of sectarianism and eclecticism, which was written about so eloquently by TashiNyima.  I also liked his idea of praying for the perpetrators of religious persecution and the prayer that he posted.

About the subject and the obvious strong feelings on both sides about it, surely that is what the Danger Zone is all about?  It's the DANGER ZONE!  so was it really necessary to remove it?  I'm just raising a question for discussion.  How dangerous is danger?  Can it be too dangerous?

[Monkey Mind]

We are all imperfect beings who have access to imperfect information through imperfect sources. If the thread returns, it is my sincerest wish that all participants remember this when we interact with each other. At the end of the day, we either contributed metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha to the vibrations of our environments, or we contributed more delusion, desire, aversion, and ignorance. I think all Buddhists are unified in their wish to purify and not defile ourselves and others.
 

[catmoon]

Having received four or five separate threats of legal action, I can make no statements that might be construed as an admission of guilt, in a court of law, until such time as the statute of limitations expires, if there is one to cover these situations.

[Yeshe Zopa]

Having received four or five separate threats of legal action, I can make no statements that might be construed as an admission of guilt, in a court of law, until such time as the statute of limitations expires, if there is one to cover these situations.

That's why I have produced a form of words which just allows us to say that if what we said proves to be incorrect, we withdraw it, and there is then nothing to dispute, in law or elsewhere.   I have used the same wording for myself, so if guilt is admitted by it, I'm already guilty.

So I withdraw anything I said about HHDL which in the future proves to be incorrect, and you withdraw what you said about me if that proves to be incorrect.

If you are correct about me, no libel.  If you withdraw, no libel. The thread, if it is returned to public view, will have the relevant editing - Laura as Mediator/Ombudsman can see to that.

I thought it a fair and sensible compromise.

[santamonicacj]

...which just allows us to say that if what we said proves to be incorrect, we withdraw it, and there is then nothing to dispute...

In this sentiment, in PMs between Yeshe and me (which were universally civil btw) he made the point that the type of samaya I complained about is not given to westerners anymore except for a few "very very senior students". I encouraged him to make the point on the public thread but it was closed before he had a chance to do so.

So the situation that I found myself encountering years ago has been largely discontinued it seems. That is good news.

However if in the future I come across a Karma Kagyu practice that tells me I cannot take teachings from Gelug lamas I will shun it, and let my Tibetan teachers know that it is not appropriate here in the West. Without the kindness of a Gelug lama I'd probably be dead today, and he never once even hinted I should change my practice to Gelug. I owe my life to a lama not of my sect. Can you see how absurd sectarianism seems to me?