Author Topic: The current kerfuffle  (Read 4236 times)

Yeshe Zopa

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2010, 11:14:10 am »
...which just allows us to say that if what we said proves to be incorrect, we withdraw it, and there is then nothing to dispute...
In this sentiment, in PMs between Yeshe and me (which were universally civil btw) he made the point that the type of samaya I complained about is not given to westerners anymore except for a few "very very senior students". I encouraged him to make the point on the public thread but it was closed before he had a chance to do so.

So the situation that I found myself encountering years ago has been largely discontinued it seems. That is good news.

However if in the future I come across a Karma Kagyu practice that tells me I cannot take teachings from Gelug lamas I will shun it, and let my Tibetan teachers know that it is not appropriate here in the West. Without the kindness of a Gelug lama I'd probably be dead today, and he never once even hinted I should change my practice to Gelug. I owe my life to a lama not of my sect. Can you see how absurd sectarianism seems to me?

I think Caz, like me, is digging around seeking the source of this.. It may be Yellow Book stuff or intended for a period of great turmoil in Tibet. So it would be a strange choice for Zong to make, unless perhaps he wanted to test people's commitment. Who knows ! ?

I have checked the current DS kangso and other practices and, far from being sectarian, beings from a Sakya temple are invited to attend.

Offline Ngawang Drolma

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2010, 12:36:26 pm »
Having received four or five separate threats of legal action, I can make no statements that might be construed as an admission of guilt, in a court of law, until such time as the statute of limitations expires, if there is one to cover these situations.

That's why I have produced a form of words which just allows us to say that if what we said proves to be incorrect, we withdraw it, and there is then nothing to dispute, in law or elsewhere.   I have used the same wording for myself, so if guilt is admitted by it, I'm already guilty.

So I withdraw anything I said about HHDL which in the future proves to be incorrect, and you withdraw what you said about me if that proves to be incorrect.

If you are correct about me, no libel.  If you withdraw, no libel. The thread, if it is returned to public view, will have the relevant editing - Laura as Mediator/Ombudsman can see to that.

I thought it a fair and sensible compromise.

Hi all,

I would recommend to catmoon or anyone else who participated in that thread that if after having had a bit of time to reflect, you find any of your words to be regrettable, to contact me so I can accommodate your needs.  One members has already done so and I removed her posts as requested.

I'm quoting Yeshe here so he can be an example to us.

Kindly,
Laura

Offline Caz

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2010, 01:21:24 pm »
...which just allows us to say that if what we said proves to be incorrect, we withdraw it, and there is then nothing to dispute...
In this sentiment, in PMs between Yeshe and me (which were universally civil btw) he made the point that the type of samaya I complained about is not given to westerners anymore except for a few "very very senior students". I encouraged him to make the point on the public thread but it was closed before he had a chance to do so.

So the situation that I found myself encountering years ago has been largely discontinued it seems. That is good news.

However if in the future I come across a Karma Kagyu practice that tells me I cannot take teachings from Gelug lamas I will shun it, and let my Tibetan teachers know that it is not appropriate here in the West. Without the kindness of a Gelug lama I'd probably be dead today, and he never once even hinted I should change my practice to Gelug. I owe my life to a lama not of my sect. Can you see how absurd sectarianism seems to me?

Oh By the way CJ I had a little check with friend about the Commitments for the Sogate and the points you put forth where totally unheard of in theirs.  :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 01:24:41 pm »
Oh By the way CJ I had a little check with friend about the Commitments for the Sogate and the points you put forth where totally unheard of in theirs.  :pray:
Caz,

What is Sogate?
What commitments are you aware of in regards to DS, both the blessing empowerment and the life-entrusting empowerment?

CJ
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Caz

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2010, 02:04:03 pm »
Oh By the way CJ I had a little check with friend about the Commitments for the Sogate and the points you put forth where totally unheard of in theirs.  :pray:
Caz,

What is Sogate?
What commitments are you aware of in regards to DS, both the blessing empowerment and the life-entrusting empowerment?

CJ

Sogate Is the life Entrustment which I assume was the one you would have taken from Zong, Students of his have told me they have never received anything similar in what you worded but only that the commitment in general entails practising and maintaining only the Lineage of Tsongkhapa and to hold Dorje Shugden as your main protector untill enlightenment.
Futher then that I cannot tell you as the Initation itself is secret, Lamas may have the habit of potentially exaggerating the commitments as well for those who are not serious about only maintaining one lineage practise as a way of weeding out those who are not ready for it so I hear.  :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 04:49:27 pm »
Sogate Is the life Entrustment which I assume was the one you would have taken from Zong, Students of his have told me they have never received anything similar in what you worded but only that the commitment in general entails practising and maintaining only the Lineage of Tsongkhapa and to hold Dorje Shugden as your main protector untill enlightenment.
Futher then that I cannot tell you as the Initation itself is secret,
"...practicing and maintaining only the Lineage of Tsongkhapa..." is certainly less restrictive than only taking teachings from lamas of Tsong R.'s tantric college within his monastery (Sera?), but it is still exclusionary.

Quote
...Lamas may have the habit of potentially exaggerating the commitments as well for those who are not serious about only maintaining one lineage practise as a way of weeding out those who are not ready for it so I hear.*  :pray:
As I did not take the initiation I do no know what was said during the wong. However I have accurately reported what was made publicly known the night before.

And why is it important to maintain only one lineage of practice? There is certainly nothing wrong with just one lineage, but what benefit is there to that kind of formal samaya? Rime' practitioners hold multiple lineages--including Gelug--with no difficulty.


*Maybe he knew I was a Kagyu and didn't want me there!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 05:02:02 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline humanitas

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 07:46:01 pm »
We are addressing a few things from a staff perspective, one of them is how to address these kinds of arguments that arise.

I'm honestly a bit disappointed with those of you who got carried away with your conviction about being right about whichever facts you personally believe to be true, and losing sight of the very thing that unites us.  How deeply painful the topic itself is and  supporting each other despite what might or might not be true and above all, keeping the "mean" out of it.   Ok, it was more than a little, I was VERY disappointed because I thought we'd finally reached a place with each other (us regulars) where we'd pause a minute before losing our cool and personalizing things that AREN'T personal we just make them such.  Then I realized my expectations of you the membership and staff weren't entirely fair.  All expectations are premeditated resentments.

There is no reason if other people are terrible to each other that we should be here.  When you hurt others you hurt yourself most.  

We are currently deliberating on pruning (I feel you guys have a right to know) the abusive posts out of an otherwise exceptional example of civil debate between members of FreeSangha.  We received a few PMs from concerned members who wanted the nasty to stop, but also loved the good parts of the thread.  

As we feel there aren't many places to have this kind of discussion on the net, we are trying to determine the most skillful way to handle this occurrence.  You guys are just as much FreeSangha as the rest of us, if you have any suggestions we have an open floor for ideas.  We always have an open door policy, meaning you can tell us if you think something isnt' working and if you have an idea of something that would work better, we are like the Borg.  We will assimilate it.

Thank you for your equanimity and patience on this matter.

:headbow:
Ogyen.

  

« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 07:48:00 pm by humanitas »
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Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 08:24:54 pm »
All expectations are premeditated resentments.
Did you just make that up? With permission I am going to use it from now on.

BTW I love your new avatar.

Quote
We are currently deliberating on pruning (I feel you guys have a right to know) the abusive posts out of an otherwise exceptional example of civil debate between members of FreeSangha.  We received a few PMs from concerned members who wanted the nasty to stop, but also loved the good parts of the thread.
I think the one thing we can all agree on was that Tahsi Nyima's post was exceptional.

:-bd
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 09:45:14 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline humanitas

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 08:54:23 pm »
SMCJ you may use that.  I did not just make that up, it has been my experience in life (granted only 31 years) thus far at least.  As far as I know it's true... LOL.  And of course, you may use it any time.  Please do.  The less people we have brandying about their expectations the more beneficial our interactions will be (and rewarding!).

Tashi Nyima is most certainly EXCEPTIONAL.  I have considered going to Jonang just because of how he represents his tradition in not just pious words, but real practice and interaction with everyone here.  We are blessed to have him with us.  We should strive to really take a place like FS for the full worth it offers in its potential.  

We here have the opportunity to practice like no other people, by choosing company with a vast selection of educated kind Buddhists in the world.  We have always made it clear that FreeSangha is a place of real practice for real people with real lives, not just a forum to write some crap in.  I think the distinction is a fine one.  Tashi Nyima demonstrates (where I'm seeing it from) to have grasped the potential this environment bears for rewarding exchanging motivation, enthusiam, and passion for the dharma.  Holy crap, the dharma can be so much fun with so many people from all over the world!

I mean this is not just another forum to its members, where people who are dissatisfied and not looking to clean up their act come and spew their life's misery in the form of blaming, judgment, and hatred.  This is a place where people have INTENTIONALLY and conscientiously shaped an environment to reflect the passion we all share for the dharma, for the path of awakening from our own ignorance.  

I am an administrator here because I SEE that there is so much potential for this to be a place of REAL practice for busy people who maybe can't quite make it to that 2 hour drive from their house every week to go meet a sangha.  There is no reason to bring our misery here to spread the suffering.  When we present misery here it is implied in the way we've conditioned the space, we want to find relief and give relief if we can to our dear dharma brothers and sisters.

This is perhaps my selfish vision for this site, but I always hope (NOT expect, I always make the effort not to expect) that people will feel the want and desire to care about each other more than they care about being right.  At the end of the what makes us happy is knowing we were good to each other.   Satisfaction is the one thing we can take with us to the death.   As is misery.  How incredible to have a place where we get to transform the latter into the former.

This has always been my hope, from the first day, I just realized that I'd had this hope from the start.

:headbow:
Ogyen.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 08:57:08 pm by humanitas »
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Offline Caz

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2010, 11:26:08 pm »
Sogate Is the life Entrustment which I assume was the one you would have taken from Zong, Students of his have told me they have never received anything similar in what you worded but only that the commitment in general entails practising and maintaining only the Lineage of Tsongkhapa and to hold Dorje Shugden as your main protector untill enlightenment.
Futher then that I cannot tell you as the Initation itself is secret,
"...practicing and maintaining only the Lineage of Tsongkhapa..." is certainly less restrictive than only taking teachings from lamas of Tsong R.'s tantric college within his monastery (Sera?), but it is still exclusionary.

Quote
...Lamas may have the habit of potentially exaggerating the commitments as well for those who are not serious about only maintaining one lineage practise as a way of weeding out those who are not ready for it so I hear.*  :pray:
As I did not take the initiation I do no know what was said during the wong. However I have accurately reported what was made publicly known the night before.

And why is it important to maintain only one lineage of practice? There is certainly nothing wrong with just one lineage, but what benefit is there to that kind of formal samaya? Rime' practitioners hold multiple lineages--including Gelug--with no difficulty.


*Maybe he knew I was a Kagyu and didn't want me there!

Yes, From what Ive been told this is not the case Zong in particular wouldnt tell someone not to take teachings only from him or lamas of his monastry, The conditions of the Sogate would only be to maintain and to practise the Gelug lineage, True while this is less restrictive it is done for a reason with regard to Dorje shugden, According to Tradition Dorje shugdens arising began with a promise in his earlier life as Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to arise as a special protector specifically for the doctrine of Je Tsongkhapa, While he was practised by some Sakya and others his promise was principle for Je Tsongkhapas doctrine. Part of the vows is to maintain Je Tsongkhapas presentation of the tradition without mixing it with other doctrinal presentations to maintain its essential essence as particular to a set of practitoners who have a good karmic connection with it. Just as the protector Hlamo Apchi arose to protect specific Doctrinal presentation and teaching of the Drikung Kagyu and it wouldnt be appropriate for Gelugpas, Sakya or Nyingmapa to take her as a principle protector because her function is far better connected with a particular doctrine, This doesnt mean to say she is sectarian in her specific function Rime practitoners could practise if they wanted but they would find far better results if they where practising her in accordence with the Doctrine she is best connected with.
Same with Dorje Shugden because his function is to maintain the essential essence and purity of Je Tsongkhapas special presentation If one isnt a serious Gelug practitoner then there would be little point in you taking him as your protector because his specifics are different.

There Is no problem with people holding Multiple Lineages this is fine, If it was a problem I doubt you would have been let into the HYT in the first place, However when It comes to tradition if every monastry in Tibet had all held multiple lineage practises how would you distinguish one from another ? Protectors that arise to protect one specific lineage do so for the benifit of sentient beings so that those best connected with it may have the chance to practise. :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2010, 01:59:31 am »
We are currently deliberating on pruning (I feel you guys have a right to know) the abusive posts out of an otherwise exceptional example of civil debate between members of FreeSangha.  We received a few PMs from concerned members who wanted the nasty to stop, but also loved the good parts of the thread.  

If you mean deleting posts which clearly breach TOS, that seems entirely reasonable.

Spiny

Offline Thao

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2010, 05:57:43 am »
Tashi Nyima is most certainly EXCEPTIONAL.  I have considered going to Jonang just because of how he represents his tradition in not just pious words, but real practice and interaction with everyone here.  We are blessed to have him with us.  We should strive to really take a place like FS for the full worth it offers in its potential. 

This is so true. I wish that I could be like him because he is always calm and kind and knows what to say and what not to say, but it always comes from his heart. We are blessed to have him here.

I had asked some, if not all, of my posts removed, not because I was abusive to anyone, but because I didn't feel that i related well in those posts. This subject was very disturbing to me, but I have since been able to see it from a different light, yet, it is still very sad that these things are happening.

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2010, 06:41:29 am »

Offline Thao

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2010, 08:18:35 am »
you know the more i thought about that thread, it really wasn't so bad. i felt that most members that posted did a really good job, not just humanitas, but yeshe's and caz's, and i can't recall the other names of those that posted. sorry. i also think yeshe held up very well under the heat of one poster. we all can't be like tashi; he's had more years of practice. and that thread was very stressful to all, but it needed to be up. hey, when i was on esangha there was so much abuse that i began standing up to some of the moderators on behalf of what i was seeing and finally left esangha. this forum has wonderful and helpful people, and so far i have not seen anything like esangha. i have not wished to run.  :anjali:

Offline Caz

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Re: The current kerfuffle
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2010, 03:38:24 pm »
you know the more i thought about that thread, it really wasn't so bad. i felt that most members that posted did a really good job, not just humanitas, but yeshe's and caz's, and i can't recall the other names of those that posted. sorry. i also think yeshe held up very well under the heat of one poster. we all can't be like tashi; he's had more years of practice. and that thread was very stressful to all, but it needed to be up. hey, when i was on esangha there was so much abuse that i began standing up to some of the moderators on behalf of what i was seeing and finally left esangha. this forum has wonderful and helpful people, and so far i have not seen anything like esangha. i have not wished to run.  :anjali:

Thats good then this place is ment to help people  :D
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

 


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