Author Topic: Jonangpa  (Read 10143 times)

Offline zerwe

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2010, 09:47:41 am »
Dear Friend

om svasti

We are just using different terminology. We distinguish wisdom (or non-dual awareness) from consciousness, because the latter always implies a dualism of subject and object.

Are enlightened beings blissful? Certainly? Are they self-conscious? No. In fact, being self-conscious is an impediment to the fullness of bliss. While enlightened beings are aware of other's perceptions, they do not share in their delusions.

Let me give an example that might make this a bit more clear, although please bear in mind that an example is never to be confused with the ultimate truth of what is exemplified.

The compassion of ordinary beings has a subject (their view of themselves), an object (their view of the recipient of compassion), and an action (their view of the compassionate act). An enlightened being spontaneously acts for the welfare of others, without willfully considering him/herself, the recipient, or the act.

For example, if someone's hand is being burnt on a hot stove, an ordinary being (the subject) might feel compassion for the person being hurt (the recipient), and move that person's hand away from the stove (the compassionate act). This is conscious compassion.

An enlightened being will achieve the same result without reference to those three, just as when we inadvertently place our own hand on a hot stove, we (as subjects) need not feel compassion for the hand (as a separate being) before removing it from the stove (the act). It is an automatic, spontaneous response. There is no consciousness of separation.

In the same way, the bliss of an enlightened being is spontaneous, without the conscious thought "I am blissful."

mangalam

An act may be natural or instinctive, as an expression of compassion, but can Bliss ever be spontaneous, lacking in cause which gives rise to it?  Bliss itself is surely not spontaneously proactive or reactive, arising or disappearing - it is a constant state in an enlightened being which is why no subject/object process is required. 

I think that the use of 'spontaneous' is intended to convey that Bliss, in an enlightened being, is constant and unforced. I think that Bodicitta is often described at the highest level to be unforced where one doesn't even have a choice but to feel compassion and help others.
Shaun :namaste:

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2010, 09:51:25 am »
An act may be natural or instinctive, as an expression of compassion, but can Bliss ever be spontaneous, lacking in cause which gives rise to it?  Bliss itself is surely not spontaneously proactive or reactive, arising or disappearing - it is a constant state in an enlightened being which is why no subject/object process is required.  

My experience with a few different groups leads me to conclude that whatever they are supposed to believe as Gelugpas, having proven a view through logical discourse, there is actually a wide range of views based on experience, and also an understanding that the Madhyamaka Prasangika is of little practical use except as a gateway through which one is introduced to such practical applications of that constantly moving 'reality' through Highest Yoga Tantra.   On a mundane level, understanding of the logic of Madhyamaka Prasangika is far from experiential 'knowledge' of ultimate truth.

Dear Friend

om svasti

Thank you for this contribution.

Yes, there is a difference between a spontaneous physical act (such as removing a burning hand from the fire) and an internal feeling (such as Bliss). However, for an ordinary being, a feeling does involve an act or series of acts, in the sense that its perception is a function accomplished by the mental consciousness, stored in the ground consciousness, and referred to the self-consciousness.

Because the enlightened beings have transcended duality (all sense of apprehender and apprehended), it is in that sense that Jonangpas speak of true bliss as being spontaneous and self-arising --that is, lacking in referents.

The example given was not intended to illustrate this specific point as much as to provide a basis for the elucidation of the difference between a 'conscious' act and one self-arising from wisdom or pure awareness.

Your comment on the understanding of many Gelukpa Prasangika practitioners (as opposed to mere dialectitians) regarding the practical application of that view is also most welcome.

Your contributions are always beneficial. Thank you!

mangalam

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2010, 09:57:27 am »

So then is Buddha Nature completely disconnected from apparent phenomena? In the other thread about debate you say that (with liberal paraphrasing) the desire for enlightenment is itself an indication of the presence of Buddha Nature in sentient beings.

Dear Friend

om svasti

Buddha Nature (absolute reality) is the ground or container of all relative appearance, but is not identical with it. Its essential quality is fundamentally different.

A traditional example: the nature of the sky is emptiness, and its quality is non-obstruction. Yet, it is precisely because it is empty and offers no resistance, that clouds can appear. Thus, the sky is the 'ground' for clouds, but is fundamentally different in essence and qualities.

Regarding your question about similarities between the Jonangpa teachings and Dzogchen or Mahamudra, i am inclined to say that there is less difference in actual practice than in description. However, as i am not expert in either Mahamudra or Dzogchen, i cannot say with certainty if Jonang teaching and practice are more or less like one or the other.

Thank you!

mangalam
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 10:02:55 am by TashiNyima »

Offline catmoon

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2010, 10:42:13 am »


 but can Bliss ever be spontaneous, lacking in cause which gives rise to it? 


Nope, bliss arises when the conditions and causes are in place for it to occur. However, if you want to take a purely conventional point of view, once the causes and conditions are in place, it might very well appear to arise spontaneously.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Yeshe Zopa

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2010, 10:54:41 am »


 but can Bliss ever be spontaneous, lacking in cause which gives rise to it? 


Nope, bliss arises when the conditions and causes are in place for it to occur. However, if you want to take a purely conventional point of view, once the causes and conditions are in place, it might very well appear to arise spontaneously.

That would appear to be the case with ordinary beings, but with fully enlightened beings it is a constant state, therefore needing no consciousness or sense awareness to arise. 

The causes for it to arise in the first instance would of course be those which led to the enlightenment of that holy being who, once enlightened is freed, in a state of ultimate Bliss, Wisdom and Compassion.

I don't post often here as I enjoy reading so much.  LOL :)

TashiNyma should author a book.  Such wisdom is rare and precious and if I post on a Jonangpa thread I feel exactly as I do with a precious Lama - cautious in case I disrupt with a stupid question and reveal my considerable lack of 'Yeshe' by being attached to such thoughts!

Maitri

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2010, 02:18:48 pm »
Dear Friend

om svasti

You are most kind. It is my good fortune and privilege to have your association, and that of so many sincere sons and daughters of the Victor.

At one time, Honen Shonin asked a disciple if his (Honen's) recollection of the Buddha (nembutsu) was better or worse than that of an apparently lesser follower of the Jodoshu. His disciple replied that, of course, Honen's must be superior. Honen was saddened and distressed by that answer, because he held that the nembutsu does not depend on any external cause for its quality. Its potency is intrinsic. It is not affected by incidental stains.

In a similar way, your wisdom (yeshe) is an aspect of your intrinsic Buddha Nature. How could it be lacking in any way? It is ever pure and perfectly luminous. It is your fully established nature, True Purity. Through the path of separation, any adventitious veils will simply dissipate.

mangalam

Yeshe Zopa

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2010, 02:27:16 pm »
Dear Friend

om svasti

You are most kind. It is my good fortune and privilege to have your association, and that of so many sincere sons and daughters of the Victor.

At one time, Honen Shonin asked a disciple if his (Honen's) recollection of the Buddha (nembutsu) was better or worse than that of an apparently lesser follower of the Jodoshu. His disciple replied that, of course, Honen's must be superior. Honen was saddened and distressed by that answer, because he held that the nembutsu does not depend on any external cause for its quality. Its potency is intrinsic. It is not affected by incidental stains.

In a similar way, your wisdom (yeshe) is an aspect of your intrinsic Buddha Nature. How could it be lacking in any way? It is ever pure and perfectly luminous. It is your fully established nature, True Purity. Through the path of separation, any adventitious veils will simply dissipate.

mangalam

My friend

You are indeed performing a most useful function here in drawing back those veils for me, for which I thank you.

I am unaware of any Jongangpa in the UK.  Is there an 'organisation' as such, or are there teachers to be approached?

maitri

Offline humanitas

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2010, 02:37:24 pm »
I don't post often here as I enjoy reading so much.  LOL :)

TashiNyma should author a book.  Such wisdom is rare and precious and if I post on a Jonangpa thread I feel exactly as I do with a precious Lama - cautious in case I disrupt with a stupid question and reveal my considerable lack of 'Yeshe' by being attached to such thoughts!

Maitri

I also approach the Jonangpa threads exactly the same way because my first experience has been this genuine and deep because of Tashi Nyima's skill with explanation.  I also tread cautiously for fear of disrupting a very precious stream.

:headbow:
Ogyen.

This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2010, 02:56:40 pm »
Dear Friends

om svasti

The closest Jonagpas come to having an 'organization' is the Jonang Standing Council and its liaison, the Jonang Foundation. The Dorje Ling Centres (NY and Alabama) of HH Tashi Gyaltsan also have an online presence, as do some of his projects (LittleLama.org, for example).

I'm afraid that organization is not one of our strong suits. Survival of the teachings has been an imperative for so long, that all else has been relegated to secondary status.

We are elated by the revival of interest in the Jonangpa teachings, as exemplified most recently by the re-publication of The Buddha from Dolpo, by Cyrus Stearns (highly recommended). Kunkhyen Dolpopa's Mountain Dharma: Ocean of Definitive Meaning is also available in English, as is Jetsun Taranatha's Essence of Other Emptiness.

If i can be of any assistance, please know that i am always willing (if not necessarily qualified or able).

mangalam

Offline heybai

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #84 on: October 09, 2011, 05:53:19 am »


Jonang Akyong Yarthang Monastery, Tibet.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 06:02:20 am by Su Dongpo »

Offline heybai

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #85 on: October 09, 2011, 06:00:34 am »
Great blog entry with photos about the Takten Damcho Ling monastery, at



"Don Croner's World Wide Wanders":
http://www.doncronerblog.com/search/label/Jonang


And another on the Great Stupa of Jonang:



http://www.doncronerblog.com/2011/02/tibet-jonang-monasteries.html






Offline wmw111

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2012, 12:05:48 am »
I was under the impression that the Jonangs flourished in Mongolia, Taranatha was one of the great lamas of the Jonang order he went to Mongolia towards the end of his life.

http://www.jonangpa.com/node/1445

 


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