Author Topic: Jonangpa  (Read 10804 times)

Offline TashiNyima

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Jonangpa
« on: April 30, 2010, 10:09:14 pm »
Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.

The lineage survived (barely), and the teachings of our Masters Dolpopa and Taranatha have been preserved within the Nyingma, Sakya, and Kagyu lineages. Even some Gelugpas have Zhentong leanings, and the 14th DL has written prayers for the continued propagation of the Jonang definitive dharma.

It takes more than one spoke to make a wheel.  :r4wheel:
Suffering sentient beings need as many dharma gates as possible.

With the greatest respect for all practitioners, may we focus our awareness on our own beliefs -our own fixed views?- rather than concerning ourselves with the practices and beliefs of others.



Offline santamonicacj

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Jonangpa
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 10:44:09 pm »
Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.
Wow, a Jonangpa! I've never interacted with one before. Whose your teacher? Where's your center? Do you guys do NgonDro?

I try to consider myself a Shentongpa, in a Kagyu kinda way, but I can't say I clearly understand it. I've perused "The Buddha Within" by Hookam and "Progressive Stages of Emptiness" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso. What texts in translation do you use? Anything simple enough that a dummy can understand it?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 10:57:38 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Caz

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Jonangpa
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 03:33:07 am »
Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.

The lineage survived (barely), and the teachings of our Masters Dolpopa and Taranatha have been preserved within the Nyingma, Sakya, and Kagyu lineages. Even some Gelugpas have Zhentong leanings, and the 14th DL has written prayers for the continued propagation of the Jonang definitive dharma.

It takes more than one spoke to make a wheel.  :r4wheel:
Suffering sentient beings need as many dharma gates as possible.

With the greatest respect for all practitioners, may we focus our awareness on our own beliefs -our own fixed views?- rather than concerning ourselves with the practices and beliefs of others.




 :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Yeshe Zopa

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Jonangpa
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 04:08:51 am »
Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.

The lineage survived (barely), and the teachings of our Masters Dolpopa and Taranatha have been preserved within the Nyingma, Sakya, and Kagyu lineages. Even some Gelugpas have Zhentong leanings, and the 14th DL has written prayers for the continued propagation of the Jonang definitive dharma.

It takes more than one spoke to make a wheel.  :r4wheel:
Suffering sentient beings need as many dharma gates as possible.

With the greatest respect for all practitioners, may we focus our awareness on our own beliefs -our own fixed views?- rather than concerning ourselves with the practices and beliefs of others.




Welcome.  :)

There are quite a few threads here which may be of interest to you and many members here who would, I am sure, be interested in the Zhentong view as it relates to emptiness and rebirth etc.

Good to have you on board. :)


Offline TashiNyima

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Jonangpa
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 07:50:33 am »
Dear Friends

namaste

Thank you for your kind posts and interest in the Jonang.

While the lineage still exists and has secured preliminary 'recognition' by HH the 14th DL (??), it is often the case that its current exponents espouse a doctrine which my Teacher would call "Zhentong light." That is understandable, after centuries of persecution. That doctrine has more in common with the eclecticism of the Rime than with the teachings of Kunchen Dolpopa, which some would label 'radical' Zhentong.

In any case, if one is interested in Zhentong, the Mountain Doctrine of Kunchen Dolpopa is the most thorough exposition of the Great Middle Way. If that text looks intimidating (it is just long, not particularly difficult), the Buddha from Dolpo, by Cyrus Stearns, provides a good summary introduction.

We have some brief texts that would be suitable for posting, if there is interest.

We do not proselytize, and therefore my Teacher, Kyabje Tashi Norbu Rinpoche, was exceedingly private as well as nonsectarian. He was ordained in the Nyingma lineage, and lived simply, preferring the kalyanamitra approach to taming sentient beings over lamaism. He entered parinirvana almost two years ago.

By His instruction, i received Refuge from Lama Tsering, disciple of the Shamarpa of the Karma Kagyu, and Bodhisattva Vows from HH the 14th Dalai Lama. We have a small group in McKinney, Texas, where i attempt to continue my Teacher's compassionate activity.

Tashi Nyima


Offline santamonicacj

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Jonangpa
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 09:56:28 am »

We have some brief texts that would be suitable for posting, if there is interest.


Well I'm interested. But it is certainly off-topic for this thread, so better to start a new one. Or poke around for an existing appropriate thread. :jinsyx:
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 09:59:31 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Yeshe Zopa

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Jonangpa
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 10:16:37 am »
Dear Friends

namaste

Thank you for your kind posts and interest in the Jonang.

While the lineage still exists and has secured preliminary 'recognition' by HH the 14th DL (??), it is often the case that its current exponents espouse a doctrine which my Teacher would call "Zhentong light." That is understandable, after centuries of persecution. That doctrine has more in common with the eclecticism of the Rime than with the teachings of Kunchen Dolpopa, which some would label 'radical' Zhentong.

In any case, if one is interested in Zhentong, the Mountain Doctrine of Kunchen Dolpopa is the most thorough exposition of the Great Middle Way. If that text looks intimidating (it is just long, not particularly difficult), the Buddha from Dolpo, by Cyrus Stearns, provides a good summary introduction.

We have some brief texts that would be suitable for posting, if there is interest.

We do not proselytize, and therefore my Teacher, Kyabje Tashi Norbu Rinpoche, was exceedingly private as well as nonsectarian. He was ordained in the Nyingma lineage, and lived simply, preferring the kalyanamitra approach to taming sentient beings over lamaism. He entered parinirvana almost two years ago.

By His instruction, i received Refuge from Lama Tsering, disciple of the Shamarpa of the Karma Kagyu, and Bodhisattva Vows from HH the 14th Dalai Lama. We have a small group in McKinney, Texas, where i attempt to continue my Teacher's compassionate activity.

Tashi Nyima



I have created a new thread, 'Jonangpa', split off from the Gelugpa topic.

If you think it appropriate I would be delighted to look into creating a new subforum within Vajrayana (?) in which to place any teachings, links and discussion.  If you could think of a suitable title (Jonang, Zhentong or another) I will raise it with the Mods.

It is of course possible to create 'sticky' threads for information only which stay at the top of the subforum, so that any discussion takes place elsewhere in other threads.

I will PM this to you as well. ;)

« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 10:26:43 am by Yeshe Zopa »

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 04:50:15 pm »

While the lineage still exists and has secured preliminary 'recognition' by HH the 14th DL (??), it is often the case that its current exponents espouse a doctrine which my Teacher would call "Zhentong light." That is understandable, after centuries of persecution. That doctrine has more in common with the eclecticism of the Rime than with the teachings of Kunchen Dolpopa, which some would label 'radical' Zhentong.


I've heard of sutra Zhentong and tantric Zhentong, but nothing like 'radical' Zhentong. Care to explain?


We have some brief texts that would be suitable for posting, if there is interest.


I am a pseudo-intellictual. Brief texts suit me just fine.


He was ordained in the Nyingma lineage, and lived simply, preferring the kalyanamitra approach to taming sentient beings over lamaism. He entered parinirvana almost two years ago.


OK, what is "kalyanamitra approach"? I have my own idea of what the term lamaism means. (I also consider myself something of a lamaist, so I have no negative connotations regarding it.) What's yours?
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline heybai

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 08:51:48 pm »
Welcome, TashiNyima.  We look forward to hearing more.
Best wishes,
heybai

Some introductory information for those of us who are encountering Jonagpa for the first time:

"History of the Jonang Tradition" 
http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tantra_jonang_history.html

"The Jonang Tradition: Zhentong & the Kalachakra"
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/node/1177

Offline humanitas

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 08:56:23 pm »
Tashi-la, I love your disposition already!  As a Nyingmapa, I'm excited about learning about Jonang.  Should we create a subforum for Jonang specifically?  Would that belong in Vajrayana along with the other Tibetan schools?

:headbow:
Ogyen.


Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.

The lineage survived (barely), and the teachings of our Masters Dolpopa and Taranatha have been preserved within the Nyingma, Sakya, and Kagyu lineages. Even some Gelugpas have Zhentong leanings, and the 14th DL has written prayers for the continued propagation of the Jonang definitive dharma.

It takes more than one spoke to make a wheel.  :r4wheel:
Suffering sentient beings need as many dharma gates as possible.

With the greatest respect for all practitioners, may we focus our awareness on our own beliefs -our own fixed views?- rather than concerning ourselves with the practices and beliefs of others.



This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2010, 09:15:39 pm »
Dear Friends,

namaste

Very briefly:

1. The term 'Radical Zhentong' refers to the teachings of Kunchen Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen, who established through both sutra and tantra the Four Ultimate Truths: True Purity, True Self, True Happiness, and True Permanence. (I can hear the crinkling of the eyebrows! A Buddhist speaking of True Self? Yes! Kunchen Dolpopa even dared use the unspeakable term 'atman.')

Although Zhentong (Shentong) has been embraced by many in the Nyingma, Kagyu, and Sakya lineages --and even by some Gelugpas, most often they espouse the modified Zhentong of Mipham, or of the Rime eclectics, timidly avoiding any terminology that might be wielded against them with the charge of heresy.

2. The kalyanamitra (literally, 'noble friend') approach is a teaching relationship where the Teacher and the disciple do not observe the reverential etiquette typical of the Guru-sishya relationship, and where both walk together on the path as intimate friends. This approach requires a level of personal attention that restricts the number of disciples under the guidance of any particular Teacher.

This does not mean, however, that reverence toward the Teacher is lacking. It is just not formal, but born of 'earned' affection.

mangalam
Tashi Nyima

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2010, 09:42:13 pm »
1. The term 'Radical Zhentong' refers to the teachings of Kunchen Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen, who established through both sutra and tantra the Four Ultimate Truths: True Purity, True Self, True Happiness, and True Permanence. (I can hear the crinkling of the eyebrows! A Buddhist speaking of True Self? Yes! Kunchen Dolpopa even dared use the unspeakable term 'atman.')
I knew it would be cool to talk to a Jonangpa!

The Zhenetong I'm most familiar with is the Kagyu/sutra (Kongtrul) version, which I am sure falls into your 'modified Zhentong' category. They seem to says that the 2nd turning is a prerequisite to understanding Zhentong, as in all manifest phenomena have no self-nature by Prasangika reasoning. But the affirmation of Zhentong is not of self-nature but of, uh, how do I put it, Dharma nature?

Does your school agree with that? (That's not an authoritative representation, just my confused understanding for the purposes of an internet discussion.)

BTW my actual position on this is simple. I brought up the subject with my teacher and he said, "I tend towards the Zhentong view also..." And then he said, "...but the divinity of phenomena is its emptiness, and the emptiness of phenomena is its divinity." End of discussion. We never spoke about it again.

So that is not a synopsis of my personal position, but the entirety of it.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 09:51:20 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Yeshe Zopa

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2010, 02:32:09 am »
A 'New Jonangpa' subforum has ben created, so I will move this thread over there.

Looking forward to a learning much more! :)

Offline Caz

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2010, 06:45:35 am »
Fantastic to have you here Tashi !  :jinsyx:
Yes it is most unfortunate what the 5th DL did to the Jongmapa lineage, it was a most appauling thing to do.  :bigtears:
However it is nice to see it beging to flourish once more ! Well wishes friend !  :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2010, 04:16:10 pm »

Quote
Tashi Nyima: The term 'Radical Zhentong' refers to the teachings of Kunchen Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen, who established through both sutra and tantra the Four Ultimate Truths: True Purity, True Self, True Happiness, and True Permanence. (I can hear the crinkling of the eyebrows! A Buddhist speaking of True Self? Yes! Kunchen Dolpopa even dared use the unspeakable term 'atman.')

The Tathagata sutras also use these 4 Ultimates & the term "atman".  The Nirvana Sutra is chock full of these notions.  So how different is Jonang view (if at all) from the Tathagata sutras?  Vasubandhu, long before Dolpopa, taught these ideas.  See his Buddha Nature Treatise, trans. by Sallie King.
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

 


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