Author Topic: Jonangpa  (Read 13668 times)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2010, 05:05:08 pm »
So how different is Jonang view (if at all) from the Tathagata sutras?  Vasubandhu, long before Dolpopa, taught these ideas.
The Jonang school embraces the Zhentong view exclusively. The Zhentong view is based on the teachings of the Buddha Nature (a.k.a. Tathagata sutras), primarily on the texts by Vasubandhu and Asanga. However even within the Zhentong view there is discussion, debate, and a variety of perspectives. The different Tibetan schools each had their own interpretations.

So yes, Jonang is based on Vasubandhu as well as Asanga. They just took it really far.

See Vasubandhu's Buddha Nature Treatise, trans. by Sallie King.
Can't find it. Is that the correct title?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 05:08:26 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2010, 06:07:01 pm »
Quote
Skull:  See Vasubandhu's Buddha Nature Treatise, trans. by Sallie King.

Can't find it. Is that the correct title?

For Vasubandhu yes; but Sallie B King's translation is Buddha Nature.  It came out in 1991, so not sure if is still in print.  Check ABE books.
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 06:18:27 am »
Dear Friends

namaste

The Jonang teaching is based on the union of the Profound View and Vast Conduct lineages of the Protectors Nagarjuna and Asanga, neither overestimating nor denigrating either, and is therefore called the 'Definitive Meaning'.

While some schools give 'provisional' status to the First, Second, or Third turnings of the Wheel of Dharma, Kunchen Dolpopa established that the Definitive Meaning can be found in all three if one applies the correct method of analysis and relies on the direct perception of samadhi.

While the Tathagata sutras are certainly embraced (especially the Uttaratantra) by Jonangpas, so are all the Teachings of the Buddha, without exception.

The Noble Vasubandhu's Five Gates is indeed a seminal text, as it is more a padhati (sadhana guide) than a philosophical elaboration. I will see if i can post it here at some point.

mangalam
Tashi Nyima

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 06:35:25 am »

The Jonang teaching is based on the union of the Profound View and Vast Conduct lineages of the Protectors Nagarjuna and Asanga, neither overestimating nor denigrating either, and is therefore called the 'Definitive Meaning'.


I stand corrected. I thought they considered Nagarjuna provisional. I was wrong.


While some schools give 'provisional' status to the First, Second, or Third turnings of the Wheel of Dharma, Kunchen Dolpopa established that the Definitive Meaning can be found in all three if one applies the correct method of analysis and relies on the direct perception of samadhi.


I have never heard anything like that. Thanks.

See TashiNyima, you're doing a valuable job of correcting misimpressions.


While the Tathagata sutras are certainly embraced (especially the Uttaratantra) by Jonangpas, so are all the Teachings of the Buddha, without exception.

The Noble Vasubandhu's Five Gates is indeed a seminal text, as it is more a padhati (sadhana guide) than a philosophical elaboration. I will see if i can post it here at some point.


The Uttaratantra I am familiar with. It seems to be the main one for all Zhentong adherents. I don't think I've ever read anything by Vasubandhu.

Keep up the good work!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:35:26 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 05:50:12 pm »

The Noble Vasubandhu's Five Gates is indeed a seminal text, as it is more a padhati (sadhana guide) than a philosophical elaboration. I will see if i can post it here at some point.

mangalam
Tashi Nyima

Not sure what the Five Gates text is; I was referring to Foxinglun - Treatise on Buddha Nature.  It may be only in Chinese canon.
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2010, 06:31:01 pm »
Thank you for your kind remarks and for your openness.

The Five Gates of Vasubandhu is more familiar to followers of the Pure Land schools, as it is a fundamental treatise in early Indian (and later Chinese) Pure Land practice. It should come as no surprise that Pure land thought relies on Zhentong doctrine, as otherwise the Buddhas and their power to deliver sentient beings would be entirely nonexistent.

sarva mangalam
Tashi Nyima

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2010, 09:33:08 pm »

The Five Gates of Vasubandhu is more familiar to followers of the Pure Land schools, as it is a fundamental treatise in early Indian (and later Chinese) Pure Land practice. It should come as no surprise that Pure land thought relies on Zhentong doctrine, as otherwise the Buddhas and their power to deliver sentient beings would be entirely nonexistent.


There's another thread around here where I quoted Robert Thurman as saying Tibetans are polytheistic. And he's a Gelugpa. So it's not just Zhentong and Pure Land.

And the NKT guys thought they were controversial!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:36:29 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline humanitas

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2010, 11:27:12 am »
Tashi-la,

I find this tradition Jonang very interesting.  Are there any sources online I can research?  I'm interested in learning more about this tradition.

:headbow:
Ogyen.
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Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2010, 11:29:42 am »
Tashi-la,

I find this tradition Jonang very interesting.  Are there any sources online I can research?  I'm interested in learning more about this tradition.

:headbow:
Ogyen.


http://www.jonangfoundation.org/
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2010, 11:36:51 am »

The Five Gates of Vasubandhu is more familiar to followers of the Pure Land schools, as it is a fundamental treatise in early Indian (and later Chinese) Pure Land practice. It should come as no surprise that Pure land thought relies on Zhentong doctrine, as otherwise the Buddhas and their power to deliver sentient beings would be entirely nonexistent.


There's another thread around here where I quoted Robert Thurman as saying Tibetans are polytheistic. And he's a Gelugpa. So it's not just Zhentong and Pure Land.

And the NKT guys thought they were controversial!

Thurman seems more concerned with celebrity soundbites than research these days.  I speak as one of those he called 'the Taliban of Buddhism' recently.  He should leave showbiz to his daughter.  Surprisingly, Gelug or otherwise, he lost my respect long ago.

Thank goodness the Vajrayana-bashers don't discriminate.   We're all closet Hindus apparently! LOL :)

P.S  Psssst... Ogyen - there are links in earlier posts. ;)

Offline humanitas

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2010, 11:44:27 am »
Oh... lol... i'm slow... don't mind me...
 :teehee:
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Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2010, 02:17:36 pm »
It should come as no surprise that Pure land thought relies on Zhentong doctrine, as otherwise the Buddhas and their power to deliver sentient beings would be entirely nonexistent.

Surely you do not believe that!  Buddhas and their salvic powers do not rely on any doctrine.
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2010, 04:31:20 pm »
Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.

Wow!  I've heard that DL5 also persecuted the Kagyu - killing monks, destroying monasteries, etc..  He must have been one hell of a guy!

Despite that, welcome aboard.

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2010, 05:25:20 pm »
It should come as no surprise that Pure land thought relies on Zhentong doctrine, as otherwise the Buddhas and their power to deliver sentient beings would be entirely nonexistent.

Surely you do not believe that!  Buddhas and their salvic powers do not rely on any doctrine.

Dear Friend,

namo buddhaya

Not the Buddhas Themselves, of course. Perhaps i should have stated more precisely that Pure Land thought (that is, the philosophical presentation of PL doctrine) assumes the true establishment of the Buddha(s).

Historically, that view is not found among the Theravadin, and certainly not among the Mahayana rangtongpas. The Noble Vasubandhu in India, the Venerable Shan Tao in China, and all the Jodo and Shin Patriarchs accepted the true establishment (Zhentong) of the Buddhas.

mangalam
TN

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2010, 06:26:16 pm »
Historically, 'bans' do not work. The 5th Dalai Lama declared the Jonangpa heretical, expropriated our monasteries, and banned the publication of our texts... and yet, we are still here.

Wow!  I've heard that DL5 also persecuted the Kagyu - killing monks, destroying monasteries, etc..  He must have been one hell of a guy!

Despite that, welcome aboard.

Dear Friend,

namo buddhaya

Whenever temporal and spiritual power come together, it is very difficult to not sacrifice the principles of the latter for the expediency of the former. The 5th DL perhaps overplayed his hand. I am not, however, making accusations other than stating the historical fact of the Jonang persecution, which is amply documented.

I did not mean to imply that HH the 14th Dalai Lama, for whom i have the greatest respect, is in any way persecuting Shugden practitioners, nor am i equating the two situations. I had hoped that a historical perspective might shed a little light, especially on how Shugden practitioners may tend to view the 'discouragement' of their practices as a ban, for which there is precedent.

Unfortunately, demonization is obscuring the mindstreams of otherwise sincere practitioners. Accusations of insincerity and hypocrisy are countered with charges of collaboration and worse. I am praying that the decibels might be reduced, and that civility, if not fraternal love, might be restored.

May the union of wisdom and compassion arise and abide in all hearts!

mangalam
TN

 


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