Author Topic: Jonangpa  (Read 12127 times)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2010, 08:54:56 pm »

Historically, that view is not found among the Theravadin, and certainly not among the Mahayana rangtongpas. The Noble Vasubandhu in India, the Venerable Shan Tao in China, and all the Jodo and Shin Patriarchs accepted the true establishment (Zhentong) of the Buddhas.


I think that Rangtongpas have faith just like Zhentongpas. The Gelugpas believe in Chenrezig just as much as the Jonanpas (IMO). Don't ask me to explain that though.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2010, 09:00:06 pm »

Thurman seems more concerned with celebrity soundbites than research these days.  I speak as one of those he called 'the Taliban of Buddhism' recently.  He should leave showbiz to his daughter.  Surprisingly, Gelug or otherwise, he lost my respect long ago.


I reserve the right to disagree with him. Actually I don't personally rely on him as an authority at all. But he's considered by many to be an authority and he certainly has credentials. And the reason I quoted him is to make the point that credible authorities don't necessarily all agree with Stephen Batchelor.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2010, 09:13:54 pm »
Not the Buddhas Themselves, of course. Perhaps i should have stated more precisely that Pure Land thought (that is, the philosophical presentation of PL doctrine) assumes the true establishment of the Buddha(s).

Historically, that view is not found among the Theravadin, and certainly not among the Mahayana rangtongpas. The Noble Vasubandhu in India, the Venerable Shan Tao in China, and all the Jodo and Shin Patriarchs accepted the true establishment (Zhentong) of the Buddhas.

mangalam
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More to the point is the fact that Pure Lands of the Buddhas are accepted as real by all of Mahayana.  Whichever type of emptiness is thought true, is irrelevant to the reality of Buddhas, their powers & their Pure Realms.
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2010, 11:24:34 pm »
I am sure this thread is blowing some people's minds. :lmfao:

                                      :stir:
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2010, 01:46:52 am »
Not the Buddhas Themselves, of course. Perhaps i should have stated more precisely that Pure Land thought (that is, the philosophical presentation of PL doctrine) assumes the true establishment of the Buddha(s).

Historically, that view is not found among the Theravadin, and certainly not among the Mahayana rangtongpas. The Noble Vasubandhu in India, the Venerable Shan Tao in China, and all the Jodo and Shin Patriarchs accepted the true establishment (Zhentong) of the Buddhas.

mangalam
TN

More to the point is the fact that Pure Lands of the Buddhas are accepted as real by all of Mahayana.  Whichever type of emptiness is thought true, is irrelevant to the reality of Buddhas, their powers & their Pure Realms.

Well, that is if you ascribe to them an inherent existence.  LOL :)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2010, 03:01:47 am »
Well, that is if you ascribe to them an inherent existence.  LOL :)
Rangtong (Prasangika Madyamaka) means "self-empty". Empty of self nature, inherent existence.

Zhentong means "other-empty". Which means empty of anything other than its own valid existence. Pure, Real, etc. Comprised of the Buddha Nature. Love, Wisdom, and Power.

Even among Zhentong adherents there is a gamut of interpretation. I'm still kind of waiting to hear the Jonang version, particularly the "Radical Zhentong" version.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 03:10:20 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Caz

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2010, 03:08:16 am »
Well, that is if you ascribe to them an inherent existence.  LOL :)
Rangtong (Prasangika Madyamaka) means "self-empty". Empty of self nature, inherent existence.

Zhentong means "other-empty". Which means empty of anything other than its own valid existence. Pure, Real, etc. Comprised of the Buddha Nature. Love, Wisdom, and Power.

Even among Zhentong adherents there is a gamut of interpretation. I'm still kind of waiting to hear the Jonang version, particularly the "Radical Zhentong" version.


True self..well i can certainly see why some may have found such a view different. :pray:
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Offline Will

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2010, 07:30:27 am »
More to the point is the fact that Pure Lands of the Buddhas are accepted as real by all of Mahayana.  Whichever type of emptiness is thought true, is irrelevant to the reality of Buddhas, their powers & their Pure Realms.

Well, that is if you ascribe to them an inherent existence.  LOL :)

Nope, I repeat - it makes no difference whether the Buddhas, their powers & Pure Lands are self-empty or other-empty.  They are plainly evident, and Je Tsongkhapa (a rangtonger) & Dolpopa (a shengtoner) agree.

If one wants to argue over the type of emptiness - fine - but neither theory obstructs the experiential fact and practical function of Buddhas, powers & Their realms. 
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2010, 09:59:03 am »
More to the point is the fact that Pure Lands of the Buddhas are accepted as real by all of Mahayana.  Whichever type of emptiness is thought true, is irrelevant to the reality of Buddhas, their powers & their Pure Realms.

Well, that is if you ascribe to them an inherent existence.  LOL :)

Nope, I repeat - it makes no difference whether the Buddhas, their powers & Pure Lands are self-empty or other-empty.  They are plainly evident, and Je Tsongkhapa (a rangtonger) & Dolpopa (a shengtoner) agree.

If one wants to argue over the type of emptiness - fine - but neither theory obstructs the experiential fact and practical function of Buddhas, powers & Their realms. 

Sorry, I was attempting ironic humour, not asking for justification, hence the 'LOL :)'.


Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2010, 10:52:44 am »
I find the contrast between this thread and the thread regarding the Kalama Sutra amusing.

It should be obvious that there are different approaches, and that they do not agree. That isn't a problem. What is right for one person's karma is wrong for another.

And I applaud FreeSangha for the maturity to allow, and even encourage, opinions not normally allowed a venue to express themselves. TashiNyima was probably very tenuous about posting here in the beginning.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 11:00:05 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Yeshe Zopa

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2010, 11:07:01 am »

Thurman seems more concerned with celebrity soundbites than research these days.  I speak as one of those he called 'the Taliban of Buddhism' recently.  He should leave showbiz to his daughter.  Surprisingly, Gelug or otherwise, he lost my respect long ago.


I reserve the right to disagree with him. Actually I don't personally rely on him as an authority at all. But he's considered by many to be an authority and he certainly has credentials. And the reason I quoted him is to make the point that credible authorities don't necessarily all agree with Stephen Batchelor.

Berzin is another who seems reliable (IMHO) most of the time, yet he also suffers foot-in-mouth disease, as when branding Theravada as 'Dharma lite'.

So I'm  not alone in wishing the foot in my mouth would occasionally stop the words coming out! LOL :)

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2010, 11:13:27 am »
I find the contrast between this thread and the thread regarding the Kalama Sutra amusing.

It should be obvious that there are different approaches, and that they do not agree. That isn't a problem. What is right for one person's karma is wrong for another.

And I applaud FreeSangha for the maturity to allow, and even encourage, opinions not normally allowed a venue to express themselves. TashiNyima was probably very tenuous about posting here in the beginning.

Well said. :)

It is exactly why this forum has a unique place on the web.

Topics, teachings and organisations banned by some forums have been discussed freely here, and yet we've had no huge problems with moderation of the discussions.   Those who ban certain discussions end up having to edit ,delete and ban to a much greater extent.

I welcome this new section, and I am delighted we have the benefit of discovering more. ;)



Offline humanitas

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2010, 11:48:46 am »
Those who say it can't be done should not interrupt those doing it (free discussion)

:headbow:
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline zerwe

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2010, 06:37:06 am »
Wow, I should of followed this thread. A wealth of information answering some questions I have had and then some. Over the last couple days I have been trying to make sense of the Zhentong view of emptiness/self. I think I understand now, but this thread would have made it much easier. And, actually the Zhentong view is probably more appealing to westerners who might struggle with a rangdong notion of emptiness. Thanks, TashiNyima and the rest who have generated this conversation. PS, I have found a Jonangpa center about 3.5 hours away. hmmmmmmm? :namaste: 

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Jonangpa
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2010, 05:17:12 pm »
Dear Friend

om svasti

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. I am humbled by the opportunity to share what i have received from my Teachers, and glad that you have found it useful. May you always accept the extreme compassion and causeless kindness of the Buddhas of the ten quarters.

It is wonderful that you have found a Jonangpa center close to you. Is it Dorje Ling in NY or Alabama?

mangalam
Tashi Nyima


 


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