Author Topic: Zhentong  (Read 6434 times)

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2013, 02:32:40 pm »
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Caz
1. Ignorance gives rise to Samsara :) Key word being Samsara.
Ignorance gives rise to ALL of dependent origination,so if Enlightenment is dependently originated then it would have to arise from Ignorance

So does Enlightenment arise from Ignorance?

(if it doesnt then its not dependently arisen,and if its not dependently arisen/conditioned then it is not arisen at all,hence its existience is not dependent upon anything other than itself= Inherent existence)

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Caz
2. Unconditioned
Enlightenment is Unconditioned which means it is not conditioned/dependent on anything else.

If Enlightenment is not inherently existent then its existence would be dependent upon something else........so what does everything that is dependently originated arise from?
Everything that is dependently originated arises from ignorance.
So again does Enlightenment arise from ignorance?(one of the 3 poisons the Buddha doesnt have)?

If the Enlightenment doesnt dependently arise from ignorance then Enlightenments existence is inherent upon itself.




Offline BlueSky

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2013, 11:21:53 pm »
Quote from: namumahaparinirvanasvaha
Ignorance gives rise to ALL of dependent origination,so if Enlightenment is dependently originated then it would have to arise from Ignorance

Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination???

Whether you are ignorant or not, the tree still grows from the seed.

And the tree still grows from the seed after you realize your enlightenment.

Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2013, 03:27:20 am »
Quote from: namumahaparinirvanasvaha
Ignorance gives rise to ALL of dependent origination,so if Enlightenment is dependently originated then it would have to arise from Ignorance

Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination???

Whether you are ignorant or not, the tree still grows from the seed.

And the tree still grows from the seed after you realize your enlightenment.

Yes Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination......this is actually one of the few things both Mahayana and Thervadan canons agree on.

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2013, 08:19:16 am »
Quote from: namumahaparinirvanasvaha
Ignorance gives rise to ALL of dependent origination,so if Enlightenment is dependently originated then it would have to arise from Ignorance

Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination???

Whether you are ignorant or not, the tree still grows from the seed.

And the tree still grows from the seed after you realize your enlightenment.

Yes Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination......this is actually one of the few things both Mahayana and Thervadan canons agree on.

A few years ago I came across this passage which is from the Avatamsaka Sutra: “everything in the Triple Realm is due to Mind” and “the twelve links of conditioned origination are all dependent on the One Mind (Cheng Chien, Manifestation of a Tathagata, ix). (Emphasis is mine.)


Offline BlueSky

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2013, 07:40:35 pm »
Depending on your realization.

If you want to say that ignorance give rise to dependent arising, this also can.

However, those who understand such statement, will not see enlightenment or ordinary.
They won't see nirvana nor samsara.
They won't see buddha nor ordinary.
They won't see mind nor non-mind.
They won't see cause and effect.

If we can say ignorance gives rise to dependent arising, but still have those notion of mind, nirvana, samsara, enlightenment, cause, effect and so on, then they do not understand what they are talking about.

Reality by nature has no cause and effect even right now.
There is no mind and no reality even right now.
There is never ever been an ignorance even for an instant.

But, if you are disagree with this, you are not yet at the level that can say ignorance give rise to dependent arising.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2013, 01:25:24 pm »
Quote from: namumahaparinirvanasvaha
Ignorance gives rise to ALL of dependent origination,so if Enlightenment is dependently originated then it would have to arise from Ignorance

Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination???

Whether you are ignorant or not, the tree still grows from the seed.

And the tree still grows from the seed after you realize your enlightenment.

Yes Ignorance gives rise to dependent origination......this is actually one of the few things both Mahayana and Thervadan canons agree on.

A few years ago I came across this passage which is from the Avatamsaka Sutra: “everything in the Triple Realm is due to Mind” and “the twelve links of conditioned origination are all dependent on the One Mind (Cheng Chien, Manifestation of a Tathagata, ix). (Emphasis is mine.)

yea other sutras say the same thing Surangama sutra states everything arises/originates from suchness

the Infinite life sutra states everything arises from the Tathagata.

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2013, 01:31:38 pm »
Depending on your realization.

If you want to say that ignorance give rise to dependent arising, this also can.

However, those who understand such statement, will not see enlightenment or ordinary.
They won't see nirvana nor samsara.
They won't see buddha nor ordinary.
They won't see mind nor non-mind.
They won't see cause and effect.

If we can say ignorance gives rise to dependent arising, but still have those notion of mind, nirvana, samsara, enlightenment, cause, effect and so on, then they do not understand what they are talking about.

Reality by nature has no cause and effect even right now.
There is no mind and no reality even right now.
There is never ever been an ignorance even for an instant.

But, if you are disagree with this, you are not yet at the level that can say ignorance give rise to dependent arising.

 "you are not yet at the level"
So when the Buddha said this in numerous Suttas and Sutras he must of not been at that level right? :lmfao:

yea good luck with that.

I know I have already asked you to prove your statements in the past to no avail........but I will ask again you got any proof for anything you post??

Offline heybai

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2013, 06:26:18 am »
But, if you are disagree with this, you are not yet at the level that can say ignorance give rise to dependent arising.

I am clearly no where near your level, Blue Sky.

 :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 06:32:39 am by heybai »

Offline Matibhadra

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2016, 06:13:28 pm »
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The main problem with Rangtong, it's emptiness without positive implication

“Emptiness without positive implication” means that something's emptiness does not imply something else's non-emptiness, not something's non-existence.

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which, in a nutshell, is nihilism.

Rather, it is just your faulty understanding.

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Shengtong, on the other hand can agree that conditioned or composed things are empty of own-nature. But this doesn't preclude the unconditioned or the same, the absolute which, in this case, would be empty of conditionality.

If an unconditioned, or an absolute, is empty of conditionality, it cannot be different from the conditioned, or the relative, because being different is a relative condition, and conditional on what it is different from.

Since an unconditioned, or an absolute, is neither the same as nor different from the conditioned, or the relative, it follows that is does not exist, like the child of the barren woman, or the rabbit's horn, or the turtle's hair.

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Shentong has it right. Rangtong falls into nihilism.

Other-emptiness falls both into the extreme of eternalism, with its ludicrous notion of an absolute or unconditioned, and into the extreme nihilism, with its faulty understanding of the emptiness of the conditioned.

 


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