Author Topic: Zhentong  (Read 6549 times)

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 02:54:41 pm »
Hey I havent found the quotes yet.

But it has to do with saying the 5 aggregates which are not the Self however are purified and used as the Nirmikaya body.

This kinda caused me to cock my eye,cause I thought the 5 aggregates were from mara.
But at the same time it did make sense cause the Buddhas manifested Body essential does contain the 5 aggregates while it is in the samsaric plane.

(ill track down the actual quote when I get a chance)


Here is the Mara quote. For some odd reason Accesstoinsight seems not to deem this passage worthy. Gosh, I wonder why? :D

Quote
When there is form, Radha, there might be Mara, or the killer, or the one who is killed.  Therefore, Radha, see form as Mara, see it as the killer, see it as the one who is killed.  See it as a disease, as a tumor, as a dart, as misery, as really misery.  Those who see it thus see rightly.  When there if feeling ... When there is perception ... When there are volitional formations ... When there is consciousness, Radha, there might be Mara, or the killer, or the one who is killed. — S.iii.189


By the way, this is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. Here is the original Pali: http://suttacentral.net/sn23.1-10/pi/#sn23.2 It starts: Rūpe kho, rādha

Quote
Māra Sutta

Sāvatthinidānaṃ. Atha kho āyasmā rādho yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā rādho bhagavantaṃ etadavoca:

“‘Māro, māro’ti, bhante, vuccati. Kittāvatā nu kho, bhante, māro”ti? “Rūpe kho, rādha, sati māro vā assa māretā vā yo vā pana mīyati. Tasmātiha tvaṃ, rādha, rūpaṃ māroti passa, māretāti passa, mīyatīti passa, rogoti passa, gaṇḍoti passa, sallanti passa, aghanti passa, aghabhūtanti passa. Ye naṃ evaṃ passanti te sammā passanti. Vedanāya sati … saññāya sati … saṅkhāresu sati … viññāṇe sati māro vā assa māretā vā yo vā pana mīyati. Tasmātiha tvaṃ, rādha, viññāṇaṃ māroti passa, māretāti passa, mīyatīti passa, rogoti passa, gaṇḍoti passa, sallanti passa, aghanti passa, aghabhūtanti passa. Ye naṃ evaṃ passanti, te sammā passantī”ti.

“Sammādassanaṃ pana, bhante, kimatthiyan”ti? “Sammādassanaṃ kho, rādha, nibbidatthaṃ”. “Nibbidā pana, bhante, kimatthiyā”ti? “Nibbidā kho, rādha, virāgatthā”. “Virāgo pana, bhante, kimatthiyo”ti? “Virāgo kho, rādha, vimuttattho”. “Vimutti pana, bhante, kimatthiyā”ti? “Vimutti kho, rādha, nibbānatthā”. “Nibbānaṃ pana, bhante, kimatthiyan”ti? “Accayāsi, rādha, pañhaṃ, nāsakkhi pañhassa pariyantaṃ gahetuṃ. Nibbānogadhañhi, rādha, brahmacariyaṃ vussati, nibbānaparāyanaṃ nibbānapariyosānan”ti.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 03:07:21 pm by songhill »

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2013, 08:36:15 pm »
I compiled some quotes from the Nirvana sutra concerning the 5 Skandhas

"Also Emancipation is giving up the actions of ones childhood days.It is the same with Emancipation. It does away with the 5 skanghas. abandoning the 5 skandhas is true emancipation, true emancipation is the Tathagata."

"he subdues the mara of illusion, the mara of the 5 skandhas"

"he is no skandha, sphere or realm and yet he is the skandha sphere and realm"

"The Buddha nature is strong and vigorous. It is hard to destroy. Therefore there is nothing that can kill it. If there were something that could indeed kill it, Buddha nature would die. But nothing can ever destroy such Buddha nature. Nothing of this nature can ever be cut"
"The Buddha nature of beings rests withing the 5 skandhas." If the 5 skandhas are destroyed this is killing of those Skanghas"

"If a person sees the expedient body of the Tathagata and says that it belongs to the 5 skandhas, the 18 realms and the 12 spheres, and that it arises from feeding, such is not to be depended upon. This means that even consciousness is not to be depended upon. If a sutra says thus, it cannot be depended upon."

with this said however Dolpopa speak of the 5 pure aggregates on page 319 of the mountain doctrine(sorry for lack of quote due to everyone getting copy rights put on everything you cant even find translations of Buddhist texts these days for free on the internet,so to post the information  I would have to hand right the entire chapter and I would rather meditate)

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2013, 10:31:10 pm »

with this said however Dolpopa speak of the 5 pure aggregates on page 319 of the mountain doctrine(sorry for lack of quote due to everyone getting copy rights put on everything you cant even find translations of Buddhist texts these days for free on the internet,so to post the information  I would have to hand right the entire chapter and I would rather meditate)

There are the five pure khandhas  viz., sîla-kkhandha, samâdhi-kkhandha, pañña-kkhandha, vimutti-kkhandha, ñâ.nadassana-kkhandha.  However, these are not to be confused with the five khandhas of form, feeling, perception, habitual tendencies, and consciousness. You can find them at S.i.139.

So the five pure aggregates (dharmaskandha) are: virtue, concentration, wisdom, liberation, and knowledge.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 11:30:43 pm »
2 questions:

1. In Hookam's book she says that she is describing Sutra Shentong, and that Tantric Shentong is different. Anybody know what the difference is?

2. What is the difference in Dharmakaya and Dharmadhatu?
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2013, 08:36:31 am »
2 questions:

1. In Hookam's book she says that she is describing Sutra Shentong, and that Tantric Shentong is different. Anybody know what the difference is?

2. What is the difference in Dharmakaya and Dharmadhatu?

(1)there really is no difference between Sutra Shentong and Tantric Shentong
althought if I had my guess, I would say she is trying to say Sutra Shentong brings the explaniation/right view and the Tantric Shentong actually is the practice itself.
(although this is how I have heard it I generally find you can also derive practice from the sutra also,although Tantric texts are generally more practice oriented than information oriented)

(2)there is no difference.
(of course a difference of description may apply between different sects, Shentong positing Inherent qualities, while Rantong positing nothing saying not even Dharmakaya has Inherent qualities)

Offline Lobster

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2013, 05:57:33 pm »
"The Buddha nature is strong and vigorous. It is hard to destroy. Therefore there is nothing that can kill it. If there were something that could indeed kill it, Buddha nature would die. But nothing can ever destroy such Buddha nature. Nothing of this nature can ever be cut"

It is sometimes noticeable how the 'self righteous' or 'Self is Buddha' natures arise unskilfully. The 'go with the flow' Buddhist nature teaching are sometimes just 'being in the zone'. So in a sense we have to keep returning, retuning and following the simplest beginnings and the deepest even ostensibly 'other' dharma.
Getting comfortable is often stagnation.

'Movement is Life' as Brad Pitt said in 'World War Z' (not recommended viewing)

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 06:36:29 pm »
"The Buddha nature is strong and vigorous. It is hard to destroy. Therefore there is nothing that can kill it. If there were something that could indeed kill it, Buddha nature would die. But nothing can ever destroy such Buddha nature. Nothing of this nature can ever be cut"

It is sometimes noticeable how the 'self righteous' or 'Self is Buddha' natures arise unskilfully. The 'go with the flow' Buddhist nature teaching are sometimes just 'being in the zone'. So in a sense we have to keep returning, retuning and following the simplest beginnings and the deepest even ostensibly 'other' dharma.
Getting comfortable is often stagnation.

'Movement is Life' as Brad Pitt said in 'World War Z' (not recommended viewing)

That is about what the Buddha said with the word "attakara". In one discourse a Brahmin asserted to the Buddha that there is “no animator who is self or another.”  To this the Buddha replied: “I have never heard or seen anything of the sort.  When you move forward or backward, stand or sit or lie down, are you not self-animating (attakara)?  Well, isn’t that self-animation?” (A. iii. 337).

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 07:21:45 am »

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 09:55:36 am »

with this said however Dolpopa speak of the 5 pure aggregates on page 319 of the mountain doctrine(sorry for lack of quote due to everyone getting copy rights put on everything you cant even find translations of Buddhist texts these days for free on the internet,so to post the information  I would have to hand right the entire chapter and I would rather meditate)

There are the five pure khandhas  viz., sîla-kkhandha, samâdhi-kkhandha, pañña-kkhandha, vimutti-kkhandha, ñâ.nadassana-kkhandha.  However, these are not to be confused with the five khandhas of form, feeling, perception, habitual tendencies, and consciousness. You can find them at S.i.139.

So the five pure aggregates (dharmaskandha) are: virtue, concentration, wisdom, liberation, and knowledge.
hey Song Hill what is the name of the Nikaya and the sutta this is found in???

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2013, 09:57:13 am »
Speaking of Shentong, I just came across this tidbit from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature#Jonangpa). The bold is mine.

Quote
The Jonangpa School of Tibetan Buddhism, whose foremost historical figure was the Tibetan scholar-monk Dolpopa, sees the Buddha-nature as the very ground of the Buddha himself, as the "permanent indwelling of the Buddha in the basal state".[52] Dolpopa comments that certain key tathāgatagarbha sutras indicate this truth.
Moreover, the Buddhist tantric scripture entitled Chanting the Names of Mañjuśrī (Mañjuśrī-nāma-saṅgīti), repeatedly exalts, as portrayed by Dolpopa, not the non-Self but the Self, and applies the following terms to this ultimate reality : 'The Buddha-Self, the beginningless Self, the solid Self, the diamond Self'. These terms are applied in a manner which reflects the cataphatic approach to Buddhism, typical of much of Dolpopa's writings.[53]
Dolpopa further expressed the viewpoint that the Buddha-nature transcends the chain of dependent origination. It is not empty of its own ultimately real essence, but only of extraneous, transitory and relative phenomena.
Dr. Cyrus Stearns writes on Dolpopa's attitude to the 'third turning of the wheel' doctrines (i.e. the Buddha-nature teachings):
The Third Turning of the Dharma Wheel presented the teachings on the Buddha nature, which are the final definitive statements on the nature of ultimate reality, the primordial ground or substratum beyond the chain of dependent origination, and which is only empty of other, relative phenomena.'[54]
In the Ghanavyuha Sutra (as quoted by Longchenpa) this Buddha essence is said to be the ground of all things:
... the ultimate universal ground also has always been with the Buddha-Essence (Tathagatagarbha), and this essence in terms of the universal ground has been taught by the Tathagata. The fools who do not know it, because of their habits, see even the universal ground as (having) various happiness and suffering and actions and emotional defilements. Its nature is pure and immaculate, its qualities are as wishing-jewels; there are neither changes nor cessations. Whoever realizes it attains Liberation ...[55]


Rangtong only deals with conceivable mundane reality which is empty of svabhâva, or true nature. On the other hand, Shengtong, which Jonangpa champions, deals with inconceivable ultimate reality that is empty of adventitious maculate things.

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 10:19:32 am »
Speaking of Shentong, I just came across this tidbit from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature#Jonangpa). The bold is mine.

Quote
The Jonangpa School of Tibetan Buddhism, whose foremost historical figure was the Tibetan scholar-monk Dolpopa, sees the Buddha-nature as the very ground of the Buddha himself, as the "permanent indwelling of the Buddha in the basal state".[52] Dolpopa comments that certain key tathāgatagarbha sutras indicate this truth.
Moreover, the Buddhist tantric scripture entitled Chanting the Names of Mañjuśrī (Mañjuśrī-nāma-saṅgīti), repeatedly exalts, as portrayed by Dolpopa, not the non-Self but the Self, and applies the following terms to this ultimate reality : 'The Buddha-Self, the beginningless Self, the solid Self, the diamond Self'. These terms are applied in a manner which reflects the cataphatic approach to Buddhism, typical of much of Dolpopa's writings.[53]
Dolpopa further expressed the viewpoint that the Buddha-nature transcends the chain of dependent origination. It is not empty of its own ultimately real essence, but only of extraneous, transitory and relative phenomena.
Dr. Cyrus Stearns writes on Dolpopa's attitude to the 'third turning of the wheel' doctrines (i.e. the Buddha-nature teachings):
The Third Turning of the Dharma Wheel presented the teachings on the Buddha nature, which are the final definitive statements on the nature of ultimate reality, the primordial ground or substratum beyond the chain of dependent origination, and which is only empty of other, relative phenomena.'[54]
In the Ghanavyuha Sutra (as quoted by Longchenpa) this Buddha essence is said to be the ground of all things:
... the ultimate universal ground also has always been with the Buddha-Essence (Tathagatagarbha), and this essence in terms of the universal ground has been taught by the Tathagata. The fools who do not know it, because of their habits, see even the universal ground as (having) various happiness and suffering and actions and emotional defilements. Its nature is pure and immaculate, its qualities are as wishing-jewels; there are neither changes nor cessations. Whoever realizes it attains Liberation ...[55]


Rangtong only deals with conceivable mundane reality which is empty of svabhâva, or true nature. On the other hand, Shengtong, which Jonangpa champions, deals with inconceivable ultimate reality that is empty of adventitious maculate things.


yea all that is 100% True if there was a PDF of the Mountian doctrine I could provide you with literally thousands of references made to the True Self by Dolpopa(I think he collected the largest quotation on the subject thus far,the mountain doctrine is roughly 3/4 quotations and 1/4 commentary by Dolpopa)

he literally let the sutras/tantras speak for themselves and only added his commentary to sweeten the pot of explain in detail or add commentary to connect passages from different texts as one.

(His book was BANNED and made illegal to own by the guluks for a reason) :D

hey do you have the sutta name where the 5 pure aggregates are found. (I don't know anything about that topic) and I don't want to quote it unless I have done my homework on it.

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 10:55:37 am »

hey do you have the sutta name where the 5 pure aggregates are found. (I don't know anything about that topic) and I don't want to quote it unless I have done my homework on it.

They are:  M.i.145; S.i.139, S.v.162 (this one uses the term "aggregate"). 

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2013, 03:44:09 am »
The primordial wisdom of emptiness is free of contrivance. It is truly and naturally present within our impure perception and consciousness. When dharmata is covered, obscured consciousness remains as temporary and removable, and the defilements are unreal. Therefore, it is said that ultimate truth is also freed from both extremes.

Because emptiness is truly established and all dharmas —like concepts within the range of subject and object— are unreal, ultimate truth is beyond the extremes of ‘is’ and ‘is not,’ eternalism and nihilism. Therefore, subjective and objective duality of the relative level is only deluded appearance. Because nothing is independently established, it is empty of self-nature. When divided into self and other, it is not possible to be another’s nature. Therefore, it is never non-emptiness. The nature of primordial wisdom is ever-present and never changes. For that reason, it is not empty of its nature; it is permanent.

Generally, if it is empty and emptiness, it need not be empty of its own nature. Primordial wisdom is empty of all contrivance and dualism which is other than its own nature. That is why it is empty.

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2013, 06:55:55 am »
The primordial wisdom of emptiness is free of contrivance. It is truly and naturally present within our impure perception and consciousness. When dharmata is covered, obscured consciousness remains as temporary and removable, and the defilements are unreal. Therefore, it is said that ultimate truth is also freed from both extremes.

Because emptiness is truly established and all dharmas —like concepts within the range of subject and object— are unreal, ultimate truth is beyond the extremes of ‘is’ and ‘is not,’ eternalism and nihilism. Therefore, subjective and objective duality of the relative level is only deluded appearance. Because nothing is independently established, it is empty of self-nature. When divided into self and other, it is not possible to be another’s nature. Therefore, it is never non-emptiness. The nature of primordial wisdom is ever-present and never changes. For that reason, it is not empty of its nature; it is permanent.

Generally, if it is empty and emptiness, it need not be empty of its own nature. Primordial wisdom is empty of all contrivance and dualism which is other than its own nature. That is why it is empty.

I guess you could say that inferior emptiness is the lack or emptiness of âtman in the five skandhas. The highest emptiness is not empty of âtman but is empty of anâtman or what is not the self. I say this because svabhâva gradually became a substitute for âtman. We see this in the Heart Sutra which is really saying the five skandha are empty of self. In the early discourses sabhâva (Pali) is never once mentioned by the Buddha.  It only appears in later commentarial literature.

Offline heybai

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 03:04:59 am »
I am a little (or more than a little) confused.   If a^tman is (is is akin to) Buddha Nature, how can the highest form of emptiness be atman?


(Don't know how to type in the diacritical marks over "a" in "atman.)

 


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