Author Topic: Zhentong  (Read 6443 times)

Offline Caz

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2013, 01:59:48 pm »
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Caz
Why would the view of Je Tsongkhapa be Nihilism ? What is being negated is the mode of existence of said object not the object itself as Nihilists would do. You seem to have a mistaken view of what constitutes Nihilism. The defilements are conventionally existent but ultimately they lack Inherent existence. Enlightenment exists but doesn't possess Inherent existence. Je Tsongkhapa was by no means a Nihilist he was just capable of negating the extremes of existence and nonexistence.
I highlighted the contradiction.
You stated in the first quote that what is being negated is the mode of existence not the object itself.
The second quote states that Enlightenment exists..............wasnt that what was supposed to be negated by the first quote?
By that statement we see that Enlightenment is negated in the same manner the defilements are.

Whatever is without inherent existence is conditioned and ever changing,
Something that is without inherent existence,is arisen and produced from something else,making it dependent upon a cause.

can I ask you is Enlightenment conditioned and dependently originated?

Yes I stated that the mode of existence is being negated...The mode of existence being Inherent existence.
The Second quote follows in suit that enlightenment exists but not Inherently.

For enlightenment to exist Inherently as suggested is maddening, Nothing can exist Inherently/ from its own side. A phenomena being permanent and Inherent are two totally different things as is often the case for confusion.

If Enlightenment is Inherent & subsequently grasped at as Inherent it is a cause for the arising of Self grasping & mistaken awareness. How can such a view be a cause of enlightenment when its very foundation is a cause for the development of delusion ?

 
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This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

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Offline Caz

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2013, 02:02:07 pm »
Time for a Rime?
http://www.rimebuddhism.com/tradition_rime.html


Practicing different lineages is fine if one wants to but as an attempt to denigrate the view of Je Tsongkhapa to fall in line with the rest would be a corruption !  :ishift:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2013, 06:42:18 pm »
Quote
Caz
Why would the view of Je Tsongkhapa be Nihilism ? What is being negated is the mode of existence of said object not the object itself as Nihilists would do. You seem to have a mistaken view of what constitutes Nihilism. The defilements are conventionally existent but ultimately they lack Inherent existence. Enlightenment exists but doesn't possess Inherent existence. Je Tsongkhapa was by no means a Nihilist he was just capable of negating the extremes of existence and nonexistence.
I highlighted the contradiction.
You stated in the first quote that what is being negated is the mode of existence not the object itself.
The second quote states that Enlightenment exists..............wasnt that what was supposed to be negated by the first quote?
By that statement we see that Enlightenment is negated in the same manner the defilements are.

Whatever is without inherent existence is conditioned and ever changing,
Something that is without inherent existence,is arisen and produced from something else,making it dependent upon a cause.

can I ask you is Enlightenment conditioned and dependently originated?

Yes I stated that the mode of existence is being negated...The mode of existence being Inherent existence.
The Second quote follows in suit that enlightenment exists but not Inherently.

For enlightenment to exist Inherently as suggested is maddening, Nothing can exist Inherently/ from its own side. A phenomena being permanent and Inherent are two totally different things as is often the case for confusion.

If Enlightenment is Inherent & subsequently grasped at as Inherent it is a cause for the arising of Self grasping & mistaken awareness. How can such a view be a cause of enlightenment when its very foundation is a cause for the development of delusion ?
I asked you earlier if Enlightenment was dependently originated.....so is it?

(remember whatever does not inherently exist,....only exists based on its dependence of something else.
However if its existence is unborn,and does not arise from anything else it is termed unconditioned and known as That which is inherently existant.)

Offline heybai

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2013, 10:54:38 pm »
Time for a Rime?
http://www.rimebuddhism.com/tradition_rime.html


Practicing different lineages is fine if one wants to but as an attempt to denigrate the view of Je Tsongkhapa to fall in line with the rest would be a corruption !  :ishift:


The point of the nineteenth-century Rime movement was too discover common ground.  As I understand it, it is an approach that is meant to be respectful of all views.

Re:

Quote
Most scholars of Buddhism explain Rimé as an "eclectic movement",[4][5][6] however one scholar has suggested that this is an inadequate rendering, saying "In fact this Rimé movement was not exactly eclectic but universalistic (and encyclopaedic), rimed (pa) (the antonym of risu ch'edpa) meaning unbounded, all-embracing, unlimited, and also impartial."[7] One of the most prominent contemporary Rimé masters, Ringu Tulku, emphasizes the message of the original Rimé founders, that Rimé is not a new school.[8] It is simply an approach allowing freedom of choice which was always the majority practice within the history of Tibetan Buddhism. The Karmapas, Je Tsongkhapa, the Dalai Lamas, Sakya lineage heads and major Nyingma and Kagyu figures took teachings and empowerments from various schools and lineages.
The movement's name is derived from two Tibetan words: Ris (bias, side) and Med (lack), which combined expresses the idea of openness to other Tibetan Buddhist traditions, as opposed to sectarianism. The Rimé movement therefore is often misunderstood as trying to unite the various sects through their similarities, which was not the case. Rimé was intended to recognize the differences between traditions and appreciate them, while also establishing a dialogue which would create common ground. It is considered important that variety be preserved, and therefore Rimé teachers are generally quite careful to emphasize differences in thought, giving students many options as to how to proceed in their spiritual training.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rim%C3%A9_movement
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:57:02 pm by heybai »

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2013, 10:14:29 am »
Rime teachers always pick one view either Rantong or Shentong
the common ground they find is the obvious which both views agree on and that is that Realitive Phenomena is empty of its own inherent existence.

where both views cannot reach common ground on is that they have opposite views concering Enlightenment.
One claims Enlightenment has no inherent existence(its existence is dependent upon something else).......The Other claims Enlightenment has an Inherent existence(it has always existed inherent unto itself)

in my meager experience Rime teachers have not found a common ground but instead have argued and heard argued both positions so many times that they already know the answers that are going to be given by their opponents,so they see arguments on the position as futile.................But in the end the Rime teacher always picks one view.(either Rantong or Shentong)

otherwise there would be a new view called RAsentong that only Rimes follow.

now if a person is Rime cause he disagrees with another Buddhists view but still accepts them as Buddhists and brothers then we are all Rime

Offline Caz

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2013, 11:42:03 am »
Quote
Caz
Why would the view of Je Tsongkhapa be Nihilism ? What is being negated is the mode of existence of said object not the object itself as Nihilists would do. You seem to have a mistaken view of what constitutes Nihilism. The defilements are conventionally existent but ultimately they lack Inherent existence. Enlightenment exists but doesn't possess Inherent existence. Je Tsongkhapa was by no means a Nihilist he was just capable of negating the extremes of existence and nonexistence.
I highlighted the contradiction.
You stated in the first quote that what is being negated is the mode of existence not the object itself.
The second quote states that Enlightenment exists..............wasnt that what was supposed to be negated by the first quote?
By that statement we see that Enlightenment is negated in the same manner the defilements are.

Whatever is without inherent existence is conditioned and ever changing,
Something that is without inherent existence,is arisen and produced from something else,making it dependent upon a cause.

can I ask you is Enlightenment conditioned and dependently originated?

Yes I stated that the mode of existence is being negated...The mode of existence being Inherent existence.
The Second quote follows in suit that enlightenment exists but not Inherently.

For enlightenment to exist Inherently as suggested is maddening, Nothing can exist Inherently/ from its own side. A phenomena being permanent and Inherent are two totally different things as is often the case for confusion.

If Enlightenment is Inherent & subsequently grasped at as Inherent it is a cause for the arising of Self grasping & mistaken awareness. How can such a view be a cause of enlightenment when its very foundation is a cause for the development of delusion ?
I asked you earlier if Enlightenment was dependently originated.....so is it?

(remember whatever does not inherently exist,....only exists based on its dependence of something else.
However if its existence is unborn,and does not arise from anything else it is termed unconditioned and known as That which is inherently existant.)

Engaging in these discussions is always a good way to refine my own understanding I took the question to my Sangha and had a good response.

Enlightenment, once attained, is permanent. i.e. we cannot become unenlightened. However enlightenment is a state of mind. mind is dependent related, and is therefore empty of inherent existence.. In fact nothing at all is inherently existent. Even if there were inherently existent things we would not be able to interact with them as interaction is dependent related (empty)
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2013, 08:11:36 pm »
Okay Caz so Enlightenment as you say is dependently related/dependently originated.

(1)So can you now please tell me what is the root of the 12 links of dependent origination.

(2)is Enlightenment conditioned or unconditioned.?

Offline Caz

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2013, 05:10:32 pm »
Okay Caz so Enlightenment as you say is dependently related/dependently originated.

(1)So can you now please tell me what is the root of the 12 links of dependent origination.

(2)is Enlightenment conditioned or unconditioned.?

1. Ignorance gives rise to Samsara :) Key word being Samsara.
2. Let me ask and I'll get back to you on that one.

:)
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline heybai

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2013, 05:32:08 pm »
Unconditioned, Caz.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2013, 08:09:06 pm »
Quote from: namumahaparinirvanasvaha
(2)is Enlightenment conditioned or unconditioned.?

Conditioned is extreme.
Unconditioned is extreme.

Only when you can be beyond these 2, your enquiry will be stop and everything runs in harmony without the dirt of conditioned or unconditioned.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline heybai

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2013, 08:46:09 pm »
Unconditioned is not extreme.  It is the transcendent value of the Middle Way:

"If everything were empty, there would be no arising and perishing. From the
letting go of and ceasing of what could one assert nirvana?

If everything were not empty, there would be no arising and perishing. From the
letting go of and ceasing of what could one assert nirvana?

No letting go, no attainment, no annihilation, no permanence, no cessation, no
birth: that is spoken of as nirvana.

 Nirvana is not a thing. Then it would follow that it would have the characteristics
of aging and death. There does not exist any thing that is without aging and death.

If nirvana were a thing, nirvana would be a conditioned phenomenon. There does
not exist any thing anywhere that is not a conditioned phenomenon.

If nirvana were a thing, how would nirvana not be dependent? There does not
exists any thing at all that is not dependent.

If nirvana were not a thing, how could it possibly be nothing? The one for whom
nirvana is not a thing, for him it is not nothing.

If nirvana were nothing, how could nirvana possibly be not dependent? There
does not exist any nothing which is not dependent.

Whatever things come and go are dependent or caused. Not being dependent and
not being caused is taught to be Nirvana. "

-- Nagarjuna, "Investigation of Nirvana," verses 1-9, Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way (trans. Stephen A. Batchelor)


 :dharma:
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:48:42 pm by heybai »

Offline BlueSky

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2013, 08:58:46 pm »
THe problem with unconditioned is people conditioned the unconditioned.

How do people conditioned the unconditioned?
1. By giving names to it - this is unconditioned.
2. By giving definition to it - unconditioned is not affecting by anything.

If you truly know the meaning of unconditioned, you shall know that actually unconditioned does not have a name, and cannot be given a name even as unconditioned.

Because if you do so, you have conditioned the unconditioned with name and definition.

It means the unconditioned can by affected with name or definition or description.

Go beyond samsara and nirvana.
Go beyond conditioned and unconditioned.

THese 4 are concepts:
THe concept of samsara.
THe concept of nirvana.
The concept of conditioned.
The concept of unconditioned.

As long as it can be discussed, it is concept.

As long as you are within the domain of concept, you are not beyond that one.

But once you are beyond the domain of concept, you are free from:
the concept of samsara,
The concept of nirvana,
The concept of conditioned.
the concept of unconditioned.

Gate gate paragate parasamgata bodhi svaha.

Go beyond everything without any stains no matter how holly it looks like.

Everything will be crystal clear without the swing of what is this, what is that?

Clear, stable, crazy, and peace.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 09:01:44 pm by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline heybai

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2013, 10:14:15 pm »
Yes, the unconditioned is beyond language and concepts and fabrication, but as we have implicitly agreed to discuss it on an internet forum, words (and youtube?) are the best we can do.

In any case, we have strayed long from the OP -- zhentong.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:15:49 pm by heybai »

Offline Caz

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2013, 06:34:15 am »
Unconditioned, Caz.

Indeed.

I think it depends on how you look at it. From the point of view of the Wisdom Truth Body, which is Buddha's omniscient mind, it's a functioning thing and conditioned. If it weren't, living beings wouldn't receive help and blessings from Buddha. From the point of view of the Nature Body, which is an ultimate true cessation and the emptiness of Buddha's mind, it's unconditioned.
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline songhill

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Re: Zhentong
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2013, 09:21:43 am »
Speaking of the unconditioned (asamskrita) let's see what the Lankavatara Sutra has to say on this important subject.

Quote
"That which is neither an effect nor a cause is something unconditioned. That which is unconditioned goes beyond all idle reasonings. That which goes beyond all idle reasonings, that is the Tathagata."




 


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