Author Topic: FP General Discussion (Moved from Essence of wisdom sutra thread)  (Read 2807 times)

Yeshe

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Note that this topic has been moved from the Essence of wisdom thread due to a divergence in the force.  :teehee:
Feel free to continue it here.  :pray:

I offered a copy of Geshe-la's commentary, Heart of Wisdom to one of the newer FP students we have.  He stopped me the other day to say, "Dude, that book you gave me.  Seriously, what the heck!?"  :teehee:  (I had to answer questions for an hour . . .)



My reaction to FP is:

'I can read a book.  I do not have to read it aloud.  I can understand the words. Geshe-la is a good teacher and his books are well composed and translated.  I understand the books. '

I prefer to spend time on practice, and on learning about practical methods.

  It is the NKT 'way' that if one refuses FP one is 'abandoning the Dharma'. Nope - I can read for myself and I prefer to practice the Dharma which Geshe-la taught me by actually meditating and putting the teachings into practice in my life.

Books which are practice-based are different, such as the HYT texts.  But the HYT texts are only taught on the TTP (Teacher Training Programme). Why assume that everyone who wants to perform HYT properly must be keen on teaching?

If the NKT is serious about avoiding the 'cult' label it must abandon this pressure to buy, to attend programmes and sign contracts. ;)
 

« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:01:11 am by Yeshe, Reason: Title relevance »

Offline Caz

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 03:37:20 pm »
I offered a copy of Geshe-la's commentary, Heart of Wisdom to one of the newer FP students we have.  He stopped me the other day to say, "Dude, that book you gave me.  Seriously, what the heck!?"  :teehee:  (I had to answer questions for an hour . . .)



My reaction to FP is:

'I can read a book.  I do not have to read it aloud.  I can understand the words. Geshe-la is a good teacher and his books are well composed and translated.  I understand the books. '

I prefer to spend time on practice, and on learning about practical methods.

  It is the NKT 'way' that if one refuses FP one is 'abandoning the Dharma'. Nope - I can read for myself and I prefer to practice the Dharma which Geshe-la taught me by actually meditating and putting the teachings into practice in my life.

Books which are practice-based are different, such as the HYT texts.  But the HYT texts are only taught on the TTP (Teacher Training Programme). Why assume that everyone who wants to perform HYT properly must be keen on teaching?

If the NKT is serious about avoiding the 'cult' label it must abandon this pressure to buy, to attend programmes and sign contracts. ;)
 



One does not have to attend these teachings, of course it is neither productive for learning to have someone attending intermittently
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline Webgoji

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2010, 09:38:15 am »
I offered a copy of Geshe-la's commentary, Heart of Wisdom to one of the newer FP students we have.  He stopped me the other day to say, "Dude, that book you gave me.  Seriously, what the heck!?"  :teehee:  (I had to answer questions for an hour . . .)



My reaction to FP is:

'I can read a book.  I do not have to read it aloud.  I can understand the words. Geshe-la is a good teacher and his books are well composed and translated.  I understand the books. '

I prefer to spend time on practice, and on learning about practical methods.

  It is the NKT 'way' that if one refuses FP one is 'abandoning the Dharma'. Nope - I can read for myself and I prefer to practice the Dharma which Geshe-la taught me by actually meditating and putting the teachings into practice in my life.

Books which are practice-based are different, such as the HYT texts.  But the HYT texts are only taught on the TTP (Teacher Training Programme). Why assume that everyone who wants to perform HYT properly must be keen on teaching?

If the NKT is serious about avoiding the 'cult' label it must abandon this pressure to buy, to attend programmes and sign contracts. ;)
 



This isn't "the way" in our center (we have students who come to GP intermittently who have HYT empowerment and training).  There is never any pressure to do anything at my center, but is sounds like there is in some centers.  I've encountered people who have made statements about the way my center is run, I assume, based on their experiences.  The centers I've visited here in the US, have been very similar to mine, but all of the statements like what you said above have come from people in the UK.  I'm starting to wonder if there aren't some cultural differences leading to these differences . . .
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Offline catmoon

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2010, 10:36:14 am »
Hmm.. I think evidence is piling up that British NKT is kinda different.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline Caz

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 11:38:10 am »
Hmm.. I think evidence is piling up that British NKT is kinda different.

Not really Methinks each centre is Individual you cannot judge the doings of one on the doings of another.  :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Yeshe

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 12:27:47 pm »
Hmm.. I think evidence is piling up that British NKT is kinda different.

Not really Methinks each centre is Individual you cannot judge the doings of one on the doings of another.  :pray:

Hopefully not.  I really thought mine was different - it hadn't even had a sex scandal. LOL :)

I believed there was encouragement, then encouragement became insistence, coupled with close and intrusive questioning as to why one was not attending this or that event.  It was as if practice was secondary to attending classes.

I have been lucky, but if we are honest the teachers are often very inexperienced and cannot answer questions and are taught to shut down conversation and get back to 'Geshe-la says' as their comfort zone.

And to link the above back to the topic:
The 'perfection of wisdom' is not to be found by soaking up information but by practising the teachings. ;)


Offline Caz

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 02:22:57 pm »
Hmm.. I think evidence is piling up that British NKT is kinda different.

Not really Methinks each centre is Individual you cannot judge the doings of one on the doings of another.  :pray:

Hopefully not.  I really thought mine was different - it hadn't even had a sex scandal. LOL :)

I believed there was encouragement, then encouragement became insistence, coupled with close and intrusive questioning as to why one was not attending this or that event.  It was as if practice was secondary to attending classes.

I have been lucky, but if we are honest the teachers are often very inexperienced and cannot answer questions and are taught to shut down conversation and get back to 'Geshe-la says' as their comfort zone.

And to link the above back to the topic:
The 'perfection of wisdom' is not to be found by soaking up information but by practising the teachings. ;)



The Teachers are still practising as well Yeshe  :teehee:
Everyone makes mistakes some are just eager to help other with their practise ( sometimes over eager )
Sanghas are there to help one and other there have been times when my teacher has been faced with a silent class as we are all busy soaking up the words  :teehee:

So in the style of Vajradhara a student will raise a point in order for futher confusion to be dispelled...and so on and so on. :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline Webgoji

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 02:53:44 pm »

[/quote]

And to link the above back to the topic:
The 'perfection of wisdom' is not to be found by soaking up information but by practising the teachings. ;)


[/quote]

And this is quite true.  We must absolutely put the teachings into practice to gain benefit from them, but it's a double edged sword too.  You need the instruction to be able to practice properly.  Without it, we end up not understanding the meditation on karma we are performing or how to recognize our karma during the day (and so on).  The key is a proper balance (go figure, middle way and all  :wink1: ).
Creating a kinder, gentler world by flinging poo.

Offline Webgoji

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 02:56:12 pm »

I have been lucky, but if we are honest the teachers are often very inexperienced and cannot answer questions and are taught to shut down conversation and get back to 'Geshe-la says' as their comfort zone.


That kinda stinks that you've encountered that.  My teacher usually responds by saying, "I don't know.  I'll have to talk to someone and will get back to you."  A perfectly acceptable answer in my book.
Creating a kinder, gentler world by flinging poo.

Offline Caz

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 03:03:05 pm »

I have been lucky, but if we are honest the teachers are often very inexperienced and cannot answer questions and are taught to shut down conversation and get back to 'Geshe-la says' as their comfort zone.


That kinda stinks that you've encountered that.  My teacher usually responds by saying, "I don't know.  I'll have to talk to someone and will get back to you."  A perfectly acceptable answer in my book.

I agree but unfortunatly people make mistakes.  :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Yeshe

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Re: The Essence of wisdom sutra.
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 01:38:19 am »

I have been lucky, but if we are honest the teachers are often very inexperienced and cannot answer questions and are taught to shut down conversation and get back to 'Geshe-la says' as their comfort zone.


That kinda stinks that you've encountered that.  My teacher usually responds by saying, "I don't know.  I'll have to talk to someone and will get back to you."  A perfectly acceptable answer in my book.

I agree but unfortunatly people make mistakes.  :pray:

Yup.. 'I don't know' is much better than 'not our tradition' or 'Geshe-la says' followed by something irrelevant.

I wish I could agree that it is over-enthusiasm, Caz, and like you I want to think the best of my teachers.  And I have had many many teachers on many GP classes, courses, empowerments, retreats etc.  It has so far been the universal response that if a different view or even information is inotroduced, the conversation is shut down.  'We don't teach that' is a common response and I'm sure teachers are given a variety of standard phrases to use.  I have heard such words from very senior teachers as well as those expected to teach a very short time after ordaining - as if the two have anything to do with each other.

I am not just analysing the NKT from one centre, Caz. I have seen and heard of this kind of pressure many times, as well as on the internet. I actually thought my centre was different, but thinking back I can now remember some incidents which I thought were more gentle attempts at recruitment, but in fact also had a barb on the hook.

I know people on FP who get a 'third degree' interrogation if they want a 'night off' to see family or friends. And I know the pressure on those living in centres is even greater.

I've seen the best and worst of the NKT over the last decade or so, and whilst I see Geshe-la as one of my root gurus and spiritual guides, I'm not going to pretend that his creation, the NKT, is also perfect, nor the ordained RT's, as history has shown all too painfully.

I think receiving information through classes is useful, with guidance if you need it.  But to be told, as I was, that I was 'abandoning the Dharma' by declining to join a new FP class is an example of the institutionalised manipulation I had heard of from others, but not believed until I experienced it.   When I explained that for me meditation, pujas and cherishing others was actually also Dharma in practice, I was cut off and  have heard nothing from the RT since.

Those who are happy to follow and do as their RT tells them may not understand what I'm saying at all, but I feel that the NKT needs to develop new approaches which do not have the appearance of coercion. ;)




« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:32:55 am by Yeshe »

Offline Caz

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Re: FP General Discussion (Moved from Essence of wisdom sutra thread)
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 02:58:34 am »
Yes i agree there is much that needs to be changed, The people at NKT are not always perfect, but hey that's why they are called practitioners.  :teehee:
There are ways in which teachers should make there approach more skillfull, an those that live in centres do not always understand commitments we have from the lay life, it is finding a middle balance between this.
Perceived events are just that (Ripening karma) with some purification perception changes.  :namaste:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

Offline lee pearson

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Re: FP General Discussion (Moved from Essence of wisdom sutra thread)
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 11:23:48 am »
when you reach a certain point in your practice,you will find that nothing is needed!!be it books teachings ect:)respect and admiration for those that walk before and after you,and total obedience to the holy beings,and spiritual guides that have pointed the way,will become second nature:)nkt is a door or opening like many others,to a higher state of awareness,and i prostrate to geshe-la,and the kadampa lineage,for pointing me in the right direction!i am very fortunate indeed:) :jinsyx:

Yeshe Zopa

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Re: FP General Discussion (Moved from Essence of wisdom sutra thread)
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 11:42:43 am »
when you reach a certain point in your practice,you will find that nothing is needed!!be it books teachings ect:)respect and admiration for those that walk before and after you,and total obedience to the holy beings,and spiritual guides that have pointed the way,will become second nature:)nkt is a door or opening like many others,to a higher state of awareness,and i prostrate to geshe-la,and the kadampa lineage,for pointing me in the right direction!i am very fortunate indeed:) :jinsyx:

Indeed so.

I read all the books well over a decade ago, and several times since - and have read all the new books.  Same with most of the empowerments and sadhanas.

There are several practices within HYT I need to perfect, but I don't want or need FP.

In fact, Pabongka's Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand is easier to digest than Joyful Path and is more comprehensive, so my real preference is to seek out the earliest useful versions.  I also have the Great treatise by Je Tsongkhapa, but prefer Pabongka's work based upon it.


Offline Caz

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Re: FP General Discussion (Moved from Essence of wisdom sutra thread)
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 12:10:31 pm »
Perhapes it would be an idea for the NKT to start a classical Dharma class where we study all the works of the old Kadam/gelug masters, i would be very interested to see what approach this could take i wouldnt mind seeing a few new resources become widley available such as biographys of the great masters, and some more works and original commentarys to vindicate Geshe-la's works.  :pray:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/

This eBook Modern Buddhism – The Path of Compassion and Wisdom, in three volumes, is being distributed freely at the request of the author Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The author says: "Through reading and practicing the instructions given in this book, people can solve their daily problems and maintain a happy mind all the time." So that these benefits can pervade the whole world, Geshe Kelsang wishes to give this eBook freely to everyone.

We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

Please enjoy this special gift from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who dedicates: "May everyone who reads this book experience deep peace of mind, and accomplish the real meaning of human life."

 


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