Author Topic: Time for some change?  (Read 5220 times)

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 09:43:20 am »
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Some did such and even 2600 years some do so. But not all meet for such purpose even they meet.

Offline ground

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 09:48:21 am »
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Some did such and even 2600 years some do so. But not all meet for such purpose even they meet.
Do they meet hear or listen?  :teehee:
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:50:10 am by ground »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 09:50:45 am »
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Some did such and even 2600 years some do so. But not all meet for such purpose even they meet.
Seems you didn't get it ...  :teehee:
Who 'seems'es in this particular case?  :teehee:

Offline Wonky Badger

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 12:45:28 pm »
Seems to me more as if somebody is searching for justification to execute his own preferences. Well, that will not have any impact on what really matters of results of actions and that is the intention.


Somebody?

And maybe you like to start to care about the bbc-code problem ... (look at the code in my post and how it appears) as this would be maybe a good side work as a admin.


I really don't understand what the problem is. What should it look like? I think it looks fine.

...

If, after time has passed, a beginner feels like looking into Mahayana teachings and practice, there should be nothing offered to discourage this.  FreeSangha is not the most Mahayana-friendly friendly place, as evidenced by most of the Mahayanists that have spend time here have left.  I don't think it's right or fair for people to be slinging personal biases about their particular affiliation at the expense of other traditions.  We need to keep in mind that Theravada and Mahayana are quite different in certain respects and those differences should be met with respect rather than criticism.

Moderation

Needs to be fair and consistent.  Some contentious threads are locked and others are left open.  People can talk smack about Mahayana or it's teachers but the seconds someone uses the word "Hinayana", all hell breaks loose and nobody does anything about it.  People are allowed to perpetrate outright lies in support of their positions and the posts are allowed to remain and the thread locked.  Obvious trolls are ignored.

There are also subjects that the mods shouldn't allow.  If they are going to moderate a general interest Buddhist forum, they must understand that there are certain topics that simply should not be available to the public.  I'm speaking of the more esoteric practices of the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.  Out here in the Real World discussions of things like Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Yidam and other practices are never conducted within earshot of those who have not been given permission to do those practices.  In many cases they aren't even allowed to see sadhanas or liturgies.  If our current staff doesn't have the background to moderate such topics in an appropriate manner, then someone should be recruited to do so (or maybe ask Caz to come back).  Allowing discussions of such practices to occur is just plain wrong and thumbs a collective nose at those traditions.

Despite these criticisms, I believe I've learned quite a bit on this forum.  I haven't really learned a thing about the Dharma or practice, but I've never come here for that.  I have my guru and lineage teachers for that.  What I have learned is a bit more about patience and knowing when to keep my virtual mouth shut.  I'm not perfect in that regard.


I'm sorry if you feel that Mahayanists have a tough time here. As you know, I myself fit into the Mahayana slot. Our mod team is volunteering their time for free and I think they're doing a good job, and I know that they are doing the best they can. What more can I ask? I went to the Buddhist Forum Moderator Recruitment Center but they were fresh out of Buddhas and emotionless robots so we currently have normal humans tending the boards, and as I said, they volunteer quite a bit of their time for free.

Some of you might remember www.buddhist-community.com. And you might remember how horrible it was without any moderation. I remember, as I was one of those that tried to get it shut down, which we finally succeeded with after showing the site's host what was going on there.

If anyone would like to help moderate the boards, feel free to let me know. You should have the patience of an angel, preferably time to log in and moderate every day, expect very little appreciation and understanding from the ones you moderate and of course, you should be willing to do this for free.

A real family or a real community doesn't go around banning people. People have to accept the fact that people have differing POVs. I have a large circle of friends in Atlanta. In a way we are more like a tribe. You just don't go kicking people out of the tribe. Our strength is our love for each other despite all of our differences. As tribal members all of us really have to practice love and toleration in a major way. Western Buddhists are not good at love or toleration. It's very sad. I have been around Buddhist forums since they first began. I think more people have been banned from these forums than the numbers of non-banned members. E-sangha was a prime example.

I enjoy the debates. It is a chance for newbies to watch from the sidelines to see who has the facts on their side and who doesn't. But I know some hate debates. They want a mutual admiration community—everyone has to walk in lockstep. But that is not feasible. That would be good for North Korean, but not in the good ole USA.

A rich Buddhist community must have diversity. It must also be challenging and exciting. Controversy and debate must be tolerated. Newbies need to learn to be less sensitive. Going up the learning curve is not easy. A lot of old baggage has to be tossed out. That can be painful. But nevertheless it has to be done. Back to my tribal ideal: we all have to love each other and show toleration for our differences. On that note, we can have a kick-ass community.

Love ya all !!!


I agree with most of what you say, but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive. Many are expecting a warmer welcome than they sometimes get. Unfortunately.
My actions are my only true belongings.
I cannot escape the consequences of my actions.
My actions are the ground on which I stand.
---
What would Buddha do?

Offline bloominRose

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 07:03:13 pm »
i appreciate you wonky, thank you very much for the work you do! :namaste:
as a beginner, i felt free to wander through any and all subjects that i chose, and i intend to continue to do so. ive got a fairly thick skin, after the life ive had, so i will try not to take rudeness personally.
i will endeavor to ignore any behaviour that i find detracts from the study of whatever topic im perusing, and quickly scroll through, until the topic becomes clear and clean once again.....thats one of the things that keyboards are good for, so i will apply that function  ;D
thank you again, i am grateful for the knowledge ive had access to here!

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 07:07:19 pm »
Quote
but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive
And you really think that you could see of whom is a beginner... Maybe there is a lot of "I think (that) it looks fine."

Offline songhill

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 07:51:34 pm »

I agree with most of what you say, but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive. Many are expecting a warmer welcome than they sometimes get. Unfortunately.

I was around lots of Buddhist beginners in the 1980s. They are not unlike freshman—in fact, both are very much the same. In a university, it is normal to teach freshman proper social skills, that is, how to interact with others (which they ain't good at doing, believe me). When you get to the graduate level, everything is much different. You can actually have a good conversation with a graduate student. But until the graduate level is reached. Freshman are not that much fun to be around.

Sorry, but this is the way I see Buddhist beginners. It's not a judgement it's a call from actual experience.

No forum has adequately resolved the problem with beginners, and may never.  But one thing this forum does right that no forum has done since the creation of Netscape, it shows a huge amount of toleration seeing also that such forums are more like an eco-system of sorts and will eventually balance themselves out, in time, with more of a hands-off approach than a forceful hands-on approach.

When you think of a forum as a mix of faculty, graduate students and undergraduates who can't tell who is who, it is not that difficult to see problems arising.

Offline Wonky Badger

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 09:52:25 pm »
i appreciate you wonky, thank you very much for the work you do! :namaste:
as a beginner, i felt free to wander through any and all subjects that i chose, and i intend to continue to do so. ive got a fairly thick skin, after the life ive had, so i will try not to take rudeness personally.
i will endeavor to ignore any behaviour that i find detracts from the study of whatever topic im perusing, and quickly scroll through, until the topic becomes clear and clean once again.....thats one of the things that keyboards are good for, so i will apply that function  ;D
thank you again, i am grateful for the knowledge ive had access to here!

That's the spirit. :) I hope you're able to find some good information here. Much of it can, of course, be personal opinions and assumptions.

Quote
but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive
And you really think that you could see of whom is a beginner... Maybe there is a lot of "I think (that) it looks fine."

It was silly of me to forget that also experienced Buddhists can be sensitive. Thank you for correcting me.

No forum has adequately resolved the problem with beginners, and may never.  But one thing this forum does right that no forum has done since the creation of Netscape, it shows a huge amount of toleration seeing also that such forums are more like an eco-system of sorts and will eventually balance themselves out, in time, with more of a hands-off approach than a forceful hands-on approach.

When you think of a forum as a mix of faculty, graduate students and undergraduates who can't tell who is who, it is not that difficult to see problems arising.

This forum certainly works as an eco-system and it has it's seasons as well. It's changed a lot during the years, and it will certainly keep changing.

There is always the risk of believing that someone knows or understands more (or less) than they do but even the Buddha said that we should not believe everything he says without scrutiny, so it is a good rule of thumb to have here as well.
My actions are my only true belongings.
I cannot escape the consequences of my actions.
My actions are the ground on which I stand.
---
What would Buddha do?

Offline Lobster

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 12:28:26 am »
Quote
If anyone would like to help moderate the boards, feel free to let me know. You should have the patience of an angel, preferably time to log in and moderate every day, expect very little appreciation and understanding from the ones you moderate and of course, you should be willing to do this for free.

I have the patience of the devil, who is still waiting to be forgiven for falling . . .
Also I would start by giving myself a warning for moderating and possibly a temp ban.
Other than that I meet the criteria, not the first time I have moderated, normally seems to involve deleting spam for Viagra, from what I remember . . . :matrix:

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 12:45:13 am »

Quote
but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive
And you really think that you could see of whom is a beginner... Maybe there is a lot of "I think (that) it looks fine."
Well I am aware that in some "traditions" its usual to teach people to get lesser sensitive rather than to increase sensitivity but to the frame of reference. So its actually not a sensitivity problem at the first place but the place to observe. Or do you hope that somebody can do this for you or for your "new comers"?

Reflecmatisms is of cause often disregarded as been taught by the Buddha and is of cause balanced with "love" as a compensation.

So as Buddhism a forum does not have an own intention... that is basic confidence in cause and effect.

Maybe its good to make a sum about the own effort and then one would see the possible merit and no need to wonder at all. Change is good and possible all the time.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:46:50 am by Hanzze »

Offline Wonky Badger

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2013, 02:42:05 am »
Quote
If anyone would like to help moderate the boards, feel free to let me know. You should have the patience of an angel, preferably time to log in and moderate every day, expect very little appreciation and understanding from the ones you moderate and of course, you should be willing to do this for free.

I have the patience of the devil, who is still waiting to be forgiven for falling . . .
Also I would start by giving myself a warning for moderating and possibly a temp ban.
Other than that I meet the criteria, not the first time I have moderated, normally seems to involve deleting spam for Viagra, from what I remember . . . :matrix:

You checked out OK in our comprehensive, complex and and very secret security program and since everyone else on the mod team happens to be out of office I conferred with myself and made you a mod. :D
My actions are my only true belongings.
I cannot escape the consequences of my actions.
My actions are the ground on which I stand.
---
What would Buddha do?

Offline former monk john

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2013, 02:51:03 am »
Wow, that's exciting news, I hope this isn't some kind of joke, and I hope the new moderator's new platform doesn't entirely consist of jokes/lobster yarn, congratulations.
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline Monkey Mind

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Time for some change?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2013, 03:15:30 pm »
and since everyone else on the mod team happens to be out of office I conferred with myself and made you a mod. :D

I should go on vacation more often. Maybe you will hire a whole team!

Offline Monkey Mind

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Time for some change?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 03:48:03 pm »
These topics sit very heavy with me. I enjoy FreeSangha the most when a beginner asks a beginner question, and members of this community come together to offer resources from different traditions that help to answer the question. I like this forum the least when people are debating each other in a heated and aggressive manner. Most of these debates seem really misguided, in my humble opinion, but the authors of the debate posts vehemently claim that debates are important for Dharma growth. (Are they the majority of our members or a very vocal minority?)

I don't know the answer. I want to trust that each member can decide for themselves what is worth reading and what would be best ignored. (No moderator intervention.) However, we have repeatedly heard feedback that FreeSangha is too permissive when it comes to trolls and meta-discussion, and people are leaving the forum because of the distracting side conversations. (More moderator intervention is requested.)

I agree with something GoGet said. (I will pause and let the shocked gasping settle down.) There are whole sections of FreeSangha that I never read, because they do not relate to my background or experience. But if I am not reading posts in those sections, I'm not certain if any other moderator is. They come to my attention when someone pushes the "Report Post" button, but almost always the negative posting has gone on for several posts and it is difficult to repair. I would feel more comfortable if we had more moderators with a Mahayana and Vajrayana background.

Offline former monk john

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Re: Time for some change?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 04:21:23 pm »
I was the moderator of a violin website out of the UK, and a pretend moderator on another site, my title was wannabee moderator, I considered myself on the violin forums the BS detector, when ever anyone said something bad or stupid that would damage or ruin a violin, i would step in, the problem is a lot of amateurs on the forum wanted to ruin violins, and didn't know how to add to their value but rather devalued violins when they repaired them, which made me very unpopular with the amateurs, and something of a hero to the professionals, but in the end they got more anti comments from the amateurs and not enough pro comments from the professionals and I was banned, and since I left the site has gone way down, I was the one answering half the beginner questions, and now no one answers them so readership is way down, that and people like to watch fights, even if they don't join in. A forum with no arguements(Im not saying this is a good idea here) can be quite boring

Anyway I would like to apply for a position as a moderator in no less than 2 or 3 years of good behaviour, of which we have about 2 days so far. I started out primarily interested in climbing Mt Everest, read 7 years in Tibet, then every single book I could find about Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism, finally I found a Buddhist temple in LA, received refuge and the Manjushri initiation from Sakya Dhezhung zRinpoche, the only tibetan lama allowed to leave Tibet after years of incarceration by the Chinese, he converted to communism, fooled the chinese, offered to go to Nepal undercover to fight Dalai Lamaism, and the minute he crossed the border to Nepal, changed into monk clothes and joined the Sakya Monastery in Nepal, amazing man, Then because there were no Sakya centre in LA I studied with a Gelugpa Geshela Gyaltsen in Santa Monica for about a year.

Fast forward several years, Im sick of driving to LA, all the local temples are Therevada, so I begrudgingly start studying at Therevada temples, as the "next best Thing" to Mahayana, in the end I came to the realization its really all the same, Kind of like being Catholic and Protestant at the same time. My point being I have almost equal training in Mahayana and Therevada.

Back to the original topic, I came onto this forum trying to play BS detector like I did on the violin forums, problem was I don't know as much about Buddhism as I do about Violins. Im not an expert, Im presently a lousy meditator, I haven't been attending my temple, as a manic depressive I've had a lot of experiences getting much more manic from meditating and going to the temple, not so much from forums. On top of that, its come to my attention, though I may have found the virtual cure to suffering for myself, Im really a lousy Buddhist, not loving, not compassionate, anger issues, still basically swimming in samsara.

So all in all I'm a person who you shouldn't take to seriously as a rule, I know a fair amount, and theres a lot more I don't know, Read what I say and if I make sense, get a second opinion from an expert, as that I am not.
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

 


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