FreeSangha - Buddhist Forum

FreeSangha Crier => The Bulletin Board => Topic started by: Wonky Badger on June 16, 2013, 11:33:58 pm

Title: Time for some change?
Post by: Wonky Badger on June 16, 2013, 11:33:58 pm
Lately I've been having a little bit more time for this forum (my real life keeps interfering with my online life  :wink1: ) and I've been thinking about how we could improve the forum structure and general atmosphere.

First off, I would like some feedback on the general structure of the forum. For example, since most users are beginners, maybe we should move the Buddha Basics subforum up a bit on the page. Second, I personally think that some of the subforums have slightly confusing names. Any suggestions for improvements?

Third, since the Buddha Basics subforum is meant to benefit beginners, I would suggest that we use clear language there. No speaking in koans or replying to a half-page post in only three words without, in that case, explaining it properly. Also I would like to see that members would abstain from fighting and bickering in the Buddha Basics forum.

Also, I know that some members are bothered by other members, and I know that many would advocate a ban for bothersome members. Believe me, there has been people here that I have had problems accepting, and I've been sad to see other members leave the forum because of them, but I just don't believe banning is the right answer unless they're blatantly and deliberately hostile and disruptive. The main reason is because I've seen people change. The forum has been around for about three and a half years, and I've seen people go through phases. They try out different styles and concepts. Some people come and go. Some people come here with a high troll factor and suddenly or slowly turn into kind and helpful members.

So one reason why I don't favor banning bothersome people is that I believe that the forum can be beneficial to them. Another reason why I don't favor it is because I believe that it can benefit YOU to have bothersome people around. My Aikido sensei taught me that if you have a problem with a person, it is you that the problem lies with and you have to work to resolve it. And I think that is how it works according to Buddhism as well. The world will keep sending you bothersome people, and no matter how much you shut them out of your life, the world will keep sending you more. The only way to get the world to stop sending you bothersome people is to practice how to drop your aversions towards them so that they stop being bothersome to you. I know it is hard, but it's the only way.

The main problem is that as a beginner it is very hard to accept those bothersome to us and I think that is why many that come here leave soon afterwards. That is why I suggest that in the Buddha Basics forum, we should all make an honest effort to not be bothersome to others.

Any thoughts on this? Or suggestions? Or criticism? :namaste:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Barah on June 17, 2013, 12:43:44 am
Maybe a "Right speech" forum can bring some improvement here? Place where not the topic, but the form is the most important thing. I haven't seen such a solution anywhere else, but I think it may be worth considering.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: former monk john on June 17, 2013, 01:27:56 am
Very well put Wonky, I'd always wondered why I wasn't being censored, I really applaud your anti censorship policy, I have been banned from two forums, one violin, one new buddhist, its devastating to ones life, a huge part of my time and what I live for is to participate online and suddenly in an instant with no warning your banned with no explanation. Im also right now in trouble on a violin forum and I anticipated trouble here, but I was really putting effort into reforming my love for argueing, i have a problem not being able to just shut up and back down from an arguement.

well you may not have noticed it, but Im really seeing progress in my attitude, I was always taught theres one right way to practise Buddhism, but now I realize you can't force everyone to do that, some people hate following rules, following rules is whats keeping my life together, so we have to disagree, some of us

Anyway I know obviously to many people Im one of the most bothersome people on this forum, but perhaps that has something to do with me being the only former or current monk on the forum, If you guys behaved like this at my temple you would be asked to leave and not come back by the monks,  i wasn't raised at Trungpa Rinpoches western buddhist centres, i was raised in very conservative Therevada traditions

ANyway ill make a deal with Barah we'll enforce right speech(whatever that is since no one seems to agree on whats right) if I can enforce something just as important as right speech, in fact only one or two precepts away, full sobriety for frequent posters, and urine tests submitted to the moderators performed by state mandated testing centres.

OK so now you see how silly it is to try and enforce that any poster has to follow this or that buddhist rule, thats why I enjoy this place mostly for the good moderators, and the lots of scripture quotes

Well I trolled over to Dhammawheel.com, and it does seem a bit more my pace, so I rejoined but under my first and last name, Lyndon taylor, so maybe having another site to participate on, will let me take the heat off posting so much here, I really had nothing else, i just recently got banned from a violin forum that I spent 2-3 hours a day helping posters, and yes argueing, it devastated me, but fortunately I turned to this forum and buddhism, and I really have learned so much more about buddhism here, much from people who I was initially ridiculing like Blue Sky, couple that with deciding I needed to be  better buddhist, which to me means less argueing learning love and compassion etc etc, thank you all freesangha, and especially the moderators for keeping this place up and running, sincerely john
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Lobster on June 17, 2013, 03:12:41 am
Barahs suggestion is a good one but on Buddhist forum we are all attempting right speech. Former Monk John is aware of his tendencies and is making efforts. That really is the inspiration. No one here that I know of is trying to bicker, troll or be bothersome. No one. If we do so then it is up to moderators to perhaps make people aware of such tendencies or that we are tending that way. A solution is a temporary lock on a forum so that the passionate can calm themselves . . .
Another solution is for moderators to post on right speech with a warning about thread locking and perhaps a short cool down lock out.

Another possibility is some sort of flagging or rating of posts.

Heavey handed moderation by well meaning but just human beings is on the whole something to be avoided. Clear trolling, advertisers and fanatics can be warned and their posts deleted. They are easy to spot.

At the moment I feel the balance is right and I think all of us can and are doing our best to be a helpful resource . . . :pray:





Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: bloominRose on June 17, 2013, 04:26:06 am
i have noticed the same things about bickering wonky, and as a beginner trying to study and learn about buddhism, ive found it somewhat disheartening and distracting when im reading along and i find a personal "fight" in the middle of a thread im interested in. i also dont think banning people is the answer, but it is tiresome to find the same conflicts going on in multiple threads.

what occurred to me was that if these same members choose to argue with each other, perhaps they should confine these seemingly very personal struggles to private messaging, so that the flow of information isnt tainted for those who really just want to learn. perhaps removing these arguments from the thread and requesting that members who want to engage in the repetitive conflict do so in private would be a reasonable idea?

im really not terribly knowledgeable about forums and how they work, so i dont know if thats something that might work. just an idea i had while i was studying one day, and kept running into these "interruptions" of topics i was interested in.
 :namaste:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: nettles on June 17, 2013, 04:40:23 am
 :hug: Everyones.

Wonky you seem very amicable and open. :namaste:

All good comments from the members here.

Nothing to add but a thread glossary for the more lazy Buddha's( yep, that's me folks) regarding the different hindu/buddhist terms/words used so I can refer to them easier when reading threads. Maybe a sticky or something

many thanks :anjali:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Wonky Badger on June 17, 2013, 06:22:20 am
Maybe a "Right speech" forum can bring some improvement here? Place where not the topic, but the form is the most important thing. I haven't seen such a solution anywhere else, but I think it may be worth considering.

In a perfect world every subforum here would be "right speech". I have a feeling that a forum dedicated to it would quickly degenerate into analyzing every sentence and word of others and stepping on a lot of toes in the process. :)

Very well put Wonky, I'd always wondered why I wasn't being censored, I really applaud your anti censorship policy, I have been banned from two forums, one violin, one new buddhist, its devastating to ones life, a huge part of my time and what I live for is to participate online and suddenly in an instant with no warning your banned with no explanation. Im also right now in trouble on a violin forum and I anticipated trouble here, but I was really putting effort into reforming my love for argueing, i have a problem not being able to just shut up and back down from an arguement.

well you may not have noticed it, but Im really seeing progress in my attitude, I was always taught theres one right way to practise Buddhism, but now I realize you can't force everyone to do that, some people hate following rules, following rules is whats keeping my life together, so we have to disagree, some of us

To be honest there has been a certain level of censorship here. Posts that have been solely offensive, confusing or off-topic have been removed at times but no other actions have been taken towards the poster.

I must say that it is very clear-minded of you to identify your anger problem and own up to it. I think it's very strong of you.

Barahs suggestion is a good one but on Buddhist forum we are all attempting right speech. Former Monk John is aware of his tendencies and is making efforts. That really is the inspiration. No one here that I know of is trying to bicker, troll or be bothersome. No one. If we do so then it is up to moderators to perhaps make people aware of such tendencies or that we are tending that way. A solution is a temporary lock on a forum so that the passionate can calm themselves . . .
Another solution is for moderators to post on right speech with a warning about thread locking and perhaps a short cool down lock out.

Another possibility is some sort of flagging or rating of posts.

Heavey handed moderation by well meaning but just human beings is on the whole something to be avoided. Clear trolling, advertisers and fanatics can be warned and their posts deleted. They are easy to spot.

At the moment I feel the balance is right and I think all of us can and are doing our best to be a helpful resource . . . :pray:

Yes, I know no one is trying to be problematic, but sometimes emotions run wild, or maybe one just doesn't think about if one's post is beneficial to anyone or not. We have the flagging of posts through the reporting function, but only the moderators can see that.

i have noticed the same things about bickering wonky, and as a beginner trying to study and learn about buddhism, ive found it somewhat disheartening and distracting when im reading along and i find a personal "fight" in the middle of a thread im interested in. i also dont think banning people is the answer, but it is tiresome to find the same conflicts going on in multiple threads.

what occurred to me was that if these same members choose to argue with each other, perhaps they should confine these seemingly very personal struggles to private messaging, so that the flow of information isnt tainted for those who really just want to learn. perhaps removing these arguments from the thread and requesting that members who want to engage in the repetitive conflict do so in private would be a reasonable idea?

im really not terribly knowledgeable about forums and how they work, so i dont know if thats something that might work. just an idea i had while i was studying one day, and kept running into these "interruptions" of topics i was interested in.
 :namaste:

It would be good if the more heated arguments would continue through PMs (or preferrably not continue at all) but even that kind of PM arguments have ended up being reported to the moderators. If I put myself in the position of being in a heated argument, I can imagine that pride would keep me from continuing the argument through PMs. If I was sure that I was right and the other was wrong, maybe I want the rest of the community to see and acknowledge that. But that's just me.  :gawrsh:

:hug: Everyones.

Wonky you seem very amicable and open. :namaste:

All good comments from the members here.

Nothing to add but a thread glossary for the more lazy Buddha's( yep, that's me folks) regarding the different hindu/buddhist terms/words used so I can refer to them easier when reading threads. Maybe a sticky or something

many thanks :anjali:

A glossary would definitely be great, but it would be a humongous work to compile it. I'm certain that there might be several ones at other sites already though.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 17, 2013, 07:28:03 am
Seems to me more as if somebody is searching for justification to execute his own preferences. Well, that will not have any impact on what really matters of results of actions and that is the intention.

When ever your mind state is overwhelmed by hatred, greed or illusion, it will have impacts. And it really does not matter if the crowd is happy about this or not. So if you think in such a way, you might face that the attachment and certain identifications with some members (those you think that they are likely as you, or you think that they are here with good intention) is what is making troubles at least.

Quote
Truly, friends, for the arising of greed these two are the cause. Which two? An agreeable object and unwise (conceit) thinking.

Truly, friends, for the arising of aversion these two are the cause. Which two? An agreeable object and unwise (conceit) thinking.


And! You can not keep others for fighting each other.

So over all I simply remember you on some basics as it is a very fact that most "forum owner" are actually far away from misbehaviour them selves and such starts always with personal preferences and seldom with good judgment and simply keeping precepts in their basic forms:

Quote from: Reconciliation, Right & Wrong  ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/reconciliation_en.html[/url])
In addition to providing these incentives for honestly admitting misbehavior, the Buddha blocked the paths to denial. Modern sociologists have identified five basic strategies that people use to avoid accepting blame when they've caused harm, and it's noteworthy that the Pali teaching on moral responsibility serves to undercut all five.

The strategies are:
 to deny responsibility,
to deny that harm was actually done,
to deny the worth of the victim,
to attack the accuser,
and to claim that they were acting in the service of a higher cause.

The Pali responses to these strategies are:

(1) We are always responsible for our conscious choices.
(2) We should always put ourselves in the other person's place.
(3) All beings are worthy of respect.
(4) We should regard those who point out our faults as if they were pointing out treasure. (Monks, in fact, are required not to show disrespect to people who criticize them, even if they don't plan to abide by the criticism.)
(5) There are no — repeat, no — higher purposes that excuse breaking the basic precepts of ethical behavior.


Banner, delete,... is always out of the roots of evil deeds. There is no killing, harming without faults at the first place.

But of course, you can kill for what you love and with quarantine the hell-wards will not ask you why.

"From where would we get any heedfulness, master? — when parents are to be supported, wife & children are to be supported, slaves & workers are to be supported, friend-&-companion duties are to be done for friends & companions, kinsmen-&-relative duties for kinsmen & relatives, guest duties for guests, departed-ancestor duties for departed ancestors, devata duties for devatas, king duties for the king, and this body also has to be refreshed & nourished."

"What do you think Dhanañjani? There is the case where a certain person, for the sake of his mother & father, does what is unrighteous, does what is discordant. Then, because of his unrighteous, discordant behavior, hell-wardens drag him off to hell. Would he gain anything by saying, 'I did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of my mother & father. Don't [throw] me into hell, hell-wardens!' Or would his mother & father gain anything for him by saying, 'He did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for our sake. Don't [throw] him into hell, hell-wardens!'?"

"No, master Sariputta. Even right while he was wailing, they'd cast him into hell."

"What do you think Dhanañjani? There is the case where a certain person, for the sake of his wife & children ... his slaves & workers ... his friends & companions ... his kinsmen & relatives ... his guests ... his departed ancestors ... the devatas ... the king, does what is unrighteous, does what is discordant. Then, because of his unrighteous, discordant behavior, hell-wardens drag him off to hell. Would he gain anything by saying, 'I did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of the king. Don't [throw] me into hell, hell-wardens!' Or would the king gain anything for him by saying, 'He did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for our sake. Don't [throw] him into hell, hell-wardens!'?"

"No, master Sariputta. Even right while he was wailing, they'd cast him into hell."

"What do you think Dhanañjani? There is the case where a certain person, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body, does what is unrighteous, does what is discordant. Then, because of his unrighteous, discordant behavior, hell-wardens drag him off to hell. Would he gain anything by saying, 'I did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing my body. Don't [throw] me into hell, hell-wardens!' Or would others gain anything for him by saying, 'He did what is unrighteous, what is discordant, for the sake of refreshing & nourishing his body. Don't [throw] him into hell, hell-wardens!'?"

"No, master Sariputta. Even right while he was wailing, they'd cast him into hell."

"Now, what do you think, Dhanañjani? Which is the better: one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant; or one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is righteous, what is concordant?

"Master Sariputta, the one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is unrighteous, what is discordant, is not the better one. The one who, for the sake of his mother & father, would do what is righteous, what is concordant would be the better one there. Righteous behavior, concordant behavior, is better than unrighteous behavior, discordant behavior.[2]

"Dhanañjani, there are other activities — reasonable, righteous — by which one can support one's mother & father, and at the same time both not do evil and practice the practice of merit.


Stay neutral and start to stick to the basics, or try to get there a little. Of course its lesser a matter of preferences but of basic confidence and faith.


And maybe you like to start to care about the bbc-code problem ... (look at the code in my post and how it appears) as this would be maybe a good side work as a admin.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: GoGet on June 17, 2013, 07:31:06 am
Beginners

We get a lot of beginners.  Beginners don't need to be looking into subjects like emptiness and the self, especially in an atmosphere where no one agrees.  Beginners should be concerned with their practice, first and foremost and study of appropriate subject - Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Dependent Origination.  Of course it's impossible to keep beginners out of the discussions we have on more advanced topics, which of course leads us to another dilemma.

If, after time has passed, a beginner feels like looking into Mahayana teachings and practice, there should be nothing offered to discourage this.  FreeSangha is not the most Mahayana-friendly friendly place, as evidenced by most of the Mahayanists that have spend time here have left.  I don't think it's right or fair for people to be slinging personal biases about their particular affiliation at the expense of other traditions.  We need to keep in mind that Theravada and Mahayana are quite different in certain respects and those differences should be met with respect rather than criticism.

Moderation

Needs to be fair and consistent.  Some contentious threads are locked and others are left open.  People can talk smack about Mahayana or it's teachers but the seconds someone uses the word "Hinayana", all hell breaks loose and nobody does anything about it.  People are allowed to perpetrate outright lies in support of their positions and the posts are allowed to remain and the thread locked.  Obvious trolls are ignored.

There are also subjects that the mods shouldn't allow.  If they are going to moderate a general interest Buddhist forum, they must understand that there are certain topics that simply should not be available to the public.  I'm speaking of the more esoteric practices of the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.  Out here in the Real World discussions of things like Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Yidam and other practices are never conducted within earshot of those who have not been given permission to do those practices.  In many cases they aren't even allowed to see sadhanas or liturgies.  If our current staff doesn't have the background to moderate such topics in an appropriate manner, then someone should be recruited to do so (or maybe ask Caz to come back).  Allowing discussions of such practices to occur is just plain wrong and thumbs a collective nose at those traditions.

Despite these criticisms, I believe I've learned quite a bit on this forum.  I haven't really learned a thing about the Dharma or practice, but I've never come here for that.  I have my guru and lineage teachers for that.  What I have learned is a bit more about patience and knowing when to keep my virtual mouth shut.  I'm not perfect in that regard.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 17, 2013, 07:45:30 am
Quote
Despite these criticisms, I believe I've learned quite a bit on this forum.  I haven't really learned a thing about the Dharma or practice, but I've never come here for that.  I have my guru and lineage teachers for that.  What I have learned is a bit more about patience and knowing when to keep my virtual mouth shut.  I'm not perfect in that regard.

Mind that...

I believe I've learned quite a bit on this forum.

I haven't really learned a thing about the Dharma or practice

Stick to the first one, and don't believe that you even have an idea of practice. It's the fist one that matters and makes effects, not your believe of how it would be nice.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: songhill on June 17, 2013, 08:24:58 am
A real family or a real community doesn't go around banning people. People have to accept the fact that people have differing POVs. I have a large circle of friends in Atlanta. In a way we are more like a tribe. You just don't go kicking people out of the tribe. Our strength is our love for each other despite all of our differences. As tribal members all of us really have to practice love and toleration in a major way. Western Buddhists are not good at love or toleration. It's very sad. I have been around Buddhist forums since they first began. I think more people have been banned from these forums than the numbers of non-banned members. E-sangha was a prime example.

I enjoy the debates. It is a chance for newbies to watch from the sidelines to see who has the facts on their side and who doesn't. But I know some hate debates. They want a mutual admiration community—everyone has to walk in lockstep. But that is not feasible. That would be good for North Korean, but not in the good ole USA.

A rich Buddhist community must have diversity. It must also be challenging and exciting. Controversy and debate must be tolerated. Newbies need to learn to be less sensitive. Going up the learning curve is not easy. A lot of old baggage has to be tossed out. That can be painful. But nevertheless it has to be done. Back to my tribal ideal: we all have to love each other and show toleration for our differences. On that note, we can have a kick-ass community.

Love ya all !!!
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 17, 2013, 08:43:33 am
So I guess one should ask one self a very important question: Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?

And that goes for the maintainer as well. And I guess I don't need which of both leads to freedom and and of suffering and which to an increasing of problems and pain. Love and hate is a wheel.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: ground on June 17, 2013, 09:18:09 am
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: ground on June 17, 2013, 09:21:51 am
Any thoughts on this? Or suggestions? Or criticism? :namaste:
Thoughts, suggestions or criticism are not likely to change anything ... just a thought.  :fu:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: songhill on June 17, 2013, 09:40:29 am
Any thoughts on this? Or suggestions? Or criticism? :namaste:
Thoughts, suggestions or criticism are not likely to change anything ... just a thought.  :fu:

You're right Ground, especially, if you're telling this to shrubbery or a piece of lawn furniture. But I believe the owner of this forum is a very sincere person—our thoughts, suggestions, and criticisms do matter at some point. Change, by the way, it not essential if it is change for the sake of change.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 17, 2013, 09:43:20 am
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Some did such and even 2600 years some do so. But not all meet for such purpose even they meet.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: ground on June 17, 2013, 09:48:21 am
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Some did such and even 2600 years some do so. But not all meet for such purpose even they meet.
Do they meet hear or listen?  :teehee:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 17, 2013, 09:50:45 am
Am I hear to practice and learn or am I hear to socialize?
Or am I listen to preach?  :fu:
Some did such and even 2600 years some do so. But not all meet for such purpose even they meet.
Seems you didn't get it ...  :teehee:
Who 'seems'es in this particular case?  :teehee:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Wonky Badger on June 17, 2013, 12:45:28 pm
Seems to me more as if somebody is searching for justification to execute his own preferences. Well, that will not have any impact on what really matters of results of actions and that is the intention.


Somebody?

And maybe you like to start to care about the bbc-code problem ... (look at the code in my post and how it appears) as this would be maybe a good side work as a admin.


I really don't understand what the problem is. What should it look like? I think it looks fine.

...

If, after time has passed, a beginner feels like looking into Mahayana teachings and practice, there should be nothing offered to discourage this.  FreeSangha is not the most Mahayana-friendly friendly place, as evidenced by most of the Mahayanists that have spend time here have left.  I don't think it's right or fair for people to be slinging personal biases about their particular affiliation at the expense of other traditions.  We need to keep in mind that Theravada and Mahayana are quite different in certain respects and those differences should be met with respect rather than criticism.

Moderation

Needs to be fair and consistent.  Some contentious threads are locked and others are left open.  People can talk smack about Mahayana or it's teachers but the seconds someone uses the word "Hinayana", all hell breaks loose and nobody does anything about it.  People are allowed to perpetrate outright lies in support of their positions and the posts are allowed to remain and the thread locked.  Obvious trolls are ignored.

There are also subjects that the mods shouldn't allow.  If they are going to moderate a general interest Buddhist forum, they must understand that there are certain topics that simply should not be available to the public.  I'm speaking of the more esoteric practices of the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.  Out here in the Real World discussions of things like Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Yidam and other practices are never conducted within earshot of those who have not been given permission to do those practices.  In many cases they aren't even allowed to see sadhanas or liturgies.  If our current staff doesn't have the background to moderate such topics in an appropriate manner, then someone should be recruited to do so (or maybe ask Caz to come back).  Allowing discussions of such practices to occur is just plain wrong and thumbs a collective nose at those traditions.

Despite these criticisms, I believe I've learned quite a bit on this forum.  I haven't really learned a thing about the Dharma or practice, but I've never come here for that.  I have my guru and lineage teachers for that.  What I have learned is a bit more about patience and knowing when to keep my virtual mouth shut.  I'm not perfect in that regard.


I'm sorry if you feel that Mahayanists have a tough time here. As you know, I myself fit into the Mahayana slot. Our mod team is volunteering their time for free and I think they're doing a good job, and I know that they are doing the best they can. What more can I ask? I went to the Buddhist Forum Moderator Recruitment Center but they were fresh out of Buddhas and emotionless robots so we currently have normal humans tending the boards, and as I said, they volunteer quite a bit of their time for free.

Some of you might remember www.buddhist-community.com (http://www.buddhist-community.com). And you might remember how horrible it was without any moderation. I remember, as I was one of those that tried to get it shut down, which we finally succeeded with after showing the site's host what was going on there.

If anyone would like to help moderate the boards, feel free to let me know. You should have the patience of an angel, preferably time to log in and moderate every day, expect very little appreciation and understanding from the ones you moderate and of course, you should be willing to do this for free.

A real family or a real community doesn't go around banning people. People have to accept the fact that people have differing POVs. I have a large circle of friends in Atlanta. In a way we are more like a tribe. You just don't go kicking people out of the tribe. Our strength is our love for each other despite all of our differences. As tribal members all of us really have to practice love and toleration in a major way. Western Buddhists are not good at love or toleration. It's very sad. I have been around Buddhist forums since they first began. I think more people have been banned from these forums than the numbers of non-banned members. E-sangha was a prime example.

I enjoy the debates. It is a chance for newbies to watch from the sidelines to see who has the facts on their side and who doesn't. But I know some hate debates. They want a mutual admiration community—everyone has to walk in lockstep. But that is not feasible. That would be good for North Korean, but not in the good ole USA.

A rich Buddhist community must have diversity. It must also be challenging and exciting. Controversy and debate must be tolerated. Newbies need to learn to be less sensitive. Going up the learning curve is not easy. A lot of old baggage has to be tossed out. That can be painful. But nevertheless it has to be done. Back to my tribal ideal: we all have to love each other and show toleration for our differences. On that note, we can have a kick-ass community.

Love ya all !!!


I agree with most of what you say, but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive. Many are expecting a warmer welcome than they sometimes get. Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: bloominRose on June 17, 2013, 07:03:13 pm
i appreciate you wonky, thank you very much for the work you do! :namaste:
as a beginner, i felt free to wander through any and all subjects that i chose, and i intend to continue to do so. ive got a fairly thick skin, after the life ive had, so i will try not to take rudeness personally.
i will endeavor to ignore any behaviour that i find detracts from the study of whatever topic im perusing, and quickly scroll through, until the topic becomes clear and clean once again.....thats one of the things that keyboards are good for, so i will apply that function  ;D
thank you again, i am grateful for the knowledge ive had access to here!
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 17, 2013, 07:07:19 pm
Quote
but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive
And you really think that you could see of whom is a beginner... Maybe there is a lot of "I think (that) it looks fine."
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: songhill on June 17, 2013, 07:51:34 pm

I agree with most of what you say, but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive. Many are expecting a warmer welcome than they sometimes get. Unfortunately.

I was around lots of Buddhist beginners in the 1980s. They are not unlike freshman—in fact, both are very much the same. In a university, it is normal to teach freshman proper social skills, that is, how to interact with others (which they ain't good at doing, believe me). When you get to the graduate level, everything is much different. You can actually have a good conversation with a graduate student. But until the graduate level is reached. Freshman are not that much fun to be around.

Sorry, but this is the way I see Buddhist beginners. It's not a judgement it's a call from actual experience.

No forum has adequately resolved the problem with beginners, and may never.  But one thing this forum does right that no forum has done since the creation of Netscape, it shows a huge amount of toleration seeing also that such forums are more like an eco-system of sorts and will eventually balance themselves out, in time, with more of a hands-off approach than a forceful hands-on approach.

When you think of a forum as a mix of faculty, graduate students and undergraduates who can't tell who is who, it is not that difficult to see problems arising.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Wonky Badger on June 17, 2013, 09:52:25 pm
i appreciate you wonky, thank you very much for the work you do! :namaste:
as a beginner, i felt free to wander through any and all subjects that i chose, and i intend to continue to do so. ive got a fairly thick skin, after the life ive had, so i will try not to take rudeness personally.
i will endeavor to ignore any behaviour that i find detracts from the study of whatever topic im perusing, and quickly scroll through, until the topic becomes clear and clean once again.....thats one of the things that keyboards are good for, so i will apply that function  ;D
thank you again, i am grateful for the knowledge ive had access to here!

That's the spirit. :) I hope you're able to find some good information here. Much of it can, of course, be personal opinions and assumptions.

Quote
but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive
And you really think that you could see of whom is a beginner... Maybe there is a lot of "I think (that) it looks fine."

It was silly of me to forget that also experienced Buddhists can be sensitive. Thank you for correcting me.

No forum has adequately resolved the problem with beginners, and may never.  But one thing this forum does right that no forum has done since the creation of Netscape, it shows a huge amount of toleration seeing also that such forums are more like an eco-system of sorts and will eventually balance themselves out, in time, with more of a hands-off approach than a forceful hands-on approach.

When you think of a forum as a mix of faculty, graduate students and undergraduates who can't tell who is who, it is not that difficult to see problems arising.

This forum certainly works as an eco-system and it has it's seasons as well. It's changed a lot during the years, and it will certainly keep changing.

There is always the risk of believing that someone knows or understands more (or less) than they do but even the Buddha said that we should not believe everything he says without scrutiny, so it is a good rule of thumb to have here as well.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Lobster on June 18, 2013, 12:28:26 am
Quote
If anyone would like to help moderate the boards, feel free to let me know. You should have the patience of an angel, preferably time to log in and moderate every day, expect very little appreciation and understanding from the ones you moderate and of course, you should be willing to do this for free.

I have the patience of the devil, who is still waiting to be forgiven for falling . . .
Also I would start by giving myself a warning for moderating and possibly a temp ban.
Other than that I meet the criteria, not the first time I have moderated, normally seems to involve deleting spam for Viagra, from what I remember . . . :matrix:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 18, 2013, 12:45:13 am

Quote
but it is problematic that beginners often give up one the forum before they have become less sensitive
And you really think that you could see of whom is a beginner... Maybe there is a lot of "I think (that) it looks fine."
Well I am aware that in some "traditions" its usual to teach people to get lesser sensitive rather than to increase sensitivity but to the frame of reference. So its actually not a sensitivity problem at the first place but the place to observe. Or do you hope that somebody can do this for you or for your "new comers"?

Reflecmatisms is of cause often disregarded as been taught by the Buddha and is of cause balanced with "love" as a compensation.

So as Buddhism a forum does not have an own intention... that is basic confidence in cause and effect.

Maybe its good to make a sum about the own effort and then one would see the possible merit and no need to wonder at all. Change is good and possible all the time.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Wonky Badger on June 18, 2013, 02:42:05 am
Quote
If anyone would like to help moderate the boards, feel free to let me know. You should have the patience of an angel, preferably time to log in and moderate every day, expect very little appreciation and understanding from the ones you moderate and of course, you should be willing to do this for free.

I have the patience of the devil, who is still waiting to be forgiven for falling . . .
Also I would start by giving myself a warning for moderating and possibly a temp ban.
Other than that I meet the criteria, not the first time I have moderated, normally seems to involve deleting spam for Viagra, from what I remember . . . :matrix:

You checked out OK in our comprehensive, complex and and very secret security program and since everyone else on the mod team happens to be out of office I conferred with myself and made you a mod. :D
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: former monk john on June 18, 2013, 02:51:03 am
Wow, that's exciting news, I hope this isn't some kind of joke, and I hope the new moderator's new platform doesn't entirely consist of jokes/lobster yarn, congratulations.
Title: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 03:15:30 pm
and since everyone else on the mod team happens to be out of office I conferred with myself and made you a mod. :D

I should go on vacation more often. Maybe you will hire a whole team!
Title: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 03:48:03 pm
These topics sit very heavy with me. I enjoy FreeSangha the most when a beginner asks a beginner question, and members of this community come together to offer resources from different traditions that help to answer the question. I like this forum the least when people are debating each other in a heated and aggressive manner. Most of these debates seem really misguided, in my humble opinion, but the authors of the debate posts vehemently claim that debates are important for Dharma growth. (Are they the majority of our members or a very vocal minority?)

I don't know the answer. I want to trust that each member can decide for themselves what is worth reading and what would be best ignored. (No moderator intervention.) However, we have repeatedly heard feedback that FreeSangha is too permissive when it comes to trolls and meta-discussion, and people are leaving the forum because of the distracting side conversations. (More moderator intervention is requested.)

I agree with something GoGet said. (I will pause and let the shocked gasping settle down.) There are whole sections of FreeSangha that I never read, because they do not relate to my background or experience. But if I am not reading posts in those sections, I'm not certain if any other moderator is. They come to my attention when someone pushes the "Report Post" button, but almost always the negative posting has gone on for several posts and it is difficult to repair. I would feel more comfortable if we had more moderators with a Mahayana and Vajrayana background.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: former monk john on June 18, 2013, 04:21:23 pm
I was the moderator of a violin website out of the UK, and a pretend moderator on another site, my title was wannabee moderator, I considered myself on the violin forums the BS detector, when ever anyone said something bad or stupid that would damage or ruin a violin, i would step in, the problem is a lot of amateurs on the forum wanted to ruin violins, and didn't know how to add to their value but rather devalued violins when they repaired them, which made me very unpopular with the amateurs, and something of a hero to the professionals, but in the end they got more anti comments from the amateurs and not enough pro comments from the professionals and I was banned, and since I left the site has gone way down, I was the one answering half the beginner questions, and now no one answers them so readership is way down, that and people like to watch fights, even if they don't join in. A forum with no arguements(Im not saying this is a good idea here) can be quite boring

Anyway I would like to apply for a position as a moderator in no less than 2 or 3 years of good behaviour, of which we have about 2 days so far. I started out primarily interested in climbing Mt Everest, read 7 years in Tibet, then every single book I could find about Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism, finally I found a Buddhist temple in LA, received refuge and the Manjushri initiation from Sakya Dhezhung zRinpoche, the only tibetan lama allowed to leave Tibet after years of incarceration by the Chinese, he converted to communism, fooled the chinese, offered to go to Nepal undercover to fight Dalai Lamaism, and the minute he crossed the border to Nepal, changed into monk clothes and joined the Sakya Monastery in Nepal, amazing man, Then because there were no Sakya centre in LA I studied with a Gelugpa Geshela Gyaltsen in Santa Monica for about a year.

Fast forward several years, Im sick of driving to LA, all the local temples are Therevada, so I begrudgingly start studying at Therevada temples, as the "next best Thing" to Mahayana, in the end I came to the realization its really all the same, Kind of like being Catholic and Protestant at the same time. My point being I have almost equal training in Mahayana and Therevada.

Back to the original topic, I came onto this forum trying to play BS detector like I did on the violin forums, problem was I don't know as much about Buddhism as I do about Violins. Im not an expert, Im presently a lousy meditator, I haven't been attending my temple, as a manic depressive I've had a lot of experiences getting much more manic from meditating and going to the temple, not so much from forums. On top of that, its come to my attention, though I may have found the virtual cure to suffering for myself, Im really a lousy Buddhist, not loving, not compassionate, anger issues, still basically swimming in samsara.

So all in all I'm a person who you shouldn't take to seriously as a rule, I know a fair amount, and theres a lot more I don't know, Read what I say and if I make sense, get a second opinion from an expert, as that I am not.
Title: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 04:34:12 pm
I really can't fathom why someone would deliberately ruin a good violin, but we have the same problem here. Some people show up and want to ruin a perfectly good Buddhism practice and are completely closed to any decent guidance about that...
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: former monk john on June 18, 2013, 05:12:48 pm
Well actually ruining a good violin and ruining a good buddhist practise, very often have the same reason, the person is ignorant about violins or buddhism, and the person is incompetent about fixing violins or practising buddhism.

The good thing is that ignorance and incompetance are not permanent, and that through education, meditation and practice people can grow.

What I know from the violin forum is ignorant and incompetent people don't need to be insulted or ridiculed, not that I didn't do that sometimes!, they need to be educated or corrected about doing things a better way.

In Buddhism, ignorance and ignorance about Buddhism are not sins, but claiming to have higher knowledge or be enlightened when you're not is a major sin.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: GoGet on June 18, 2013, 05:18:13 pm
These topics sit very heavy with me. I enjoy FreeSangha the most when a beginner asks a beginner question, and members of this community come together to offer resources from different traditions that help to answer the question. I like this forum the least when people are debating each other in a heated and aggressive manner. Most of these debates seem really misguided, in my humble opinion, but the authors of the debate posts vehemently claim that debates are important for Dharma growth. (Are they the majority of our members or a very vocal minority?)

I don't know the answer. I want to trust that each member can decide for themselves what is worth reading and what would be best ignored. (No moderator intervention.) However, we have repeatedly heard feedback that FreeSangha is too permissive when it comes to trolls and meta-discussion, and people are leaving the forum because of the distracting side conversations. (More moderator intervention is requested.)

I agree with something GoGet said. (I will pause and let the shocked gasping settle down.) There are whole sections of FreeSangha that I never read, because they do not relate to my background or experience. But if I am not reading posts in those sections, I'm not certain if any other moderator is. They come to my attention when someone pushes the "Report Post" button, but almost always the negative posting has gone on for several posts and it is difficult to repair. I would feel more comfortable if we had more moderators with a Mahayana and Vajrayana background.

We used to have them.

What do you suppose happened to them.

and just WTF is this supposed to mean:

Quote
(I will pause and let the shocked gasping settle down.)

 :lmfao:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: former monk john on June 18, 2013, 05:35:39 pm
Well just an observation, but it appears to me, not in number of posts but in sheer volume of printed material, 50% of the printed text lately are from people who turn out to be either direct followers or strong supporters of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, the guy everyone is trying to say is "good" for buddhism.

And when I post Video and articles by a much higher lineage, and more respected in tibetan circles, Rinpoche, Sakya Trizin, practically no comments at all.

What we have here is a lot of people that don't want to follow traditional buddhism, that don't want to follow all the precepts, they don't care if their guru slept with nuns. Which is their right, its a free sangha, but then these same people want to be the big players teaching buddhism on this forum, and every time someone tries to put a more  conservative, traditional viewpoint on the teaching, its attack, attack, attack, then we wonder why are we loseing members. just my opinion
Title: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 06:36:54 pm
We used to have them.

What do you suppose happened to them.

Impossible to generalize for all of them, but most of them came to the same realization: One can engage in Buddhist practice or on can engage in arguments about Buddhist practice, but it is not really skillful to do attempt to do both.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: GoGet on June 18, 2013, 06:48:04 pm
What we have here is a lot of people that don't want to follow traditional buddhism, that don't want to follow all the precepts, they don't care if their guru slept with nuns.

That nun, John, only one we know of, so only one we can talk about.

Think about this.  Beginners will come in her thinking you're dealing straight stuff, when in fact what you're doing is lying when you post stuff like that.

People want to follow precepts John.  Most of them aren't as good at it as you are.  In some cases the precepts are taken as vows whuch a practitioner can viw to abide by.  You don't have to agree John but you have no right to treat those whose view of the path differs from yours, like they were something smelly stuck to the sole of your shoe.

Quote
Which is their right, its a free sangha,

In that case you have no right to speak disparaging of them.

Quote
just my opinion

Everybody's got one.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: GoGet on June 18, 2013, 06:51:21 pm
We used to have them.

What do you suppose happened to them.

Impossible to generalize for all of them, but most of them came to the same realization: One can engage in Buddhist practice or on can engage in arguments about Buddhist practice, but it is not really skillful to do attempt to do both.

I don't think that's it at all, but if it is, why don't the mods do something about it?  Are you that powerless?  John just posted something that was not only untrue but is probably presented with the idea of stirring something up.  You guys want Right Speech, frikkin enforce it!
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 07:13:45 pm
I don't think that's it at all...
Many of them I consider to be my friends. I don't want to accidentally spill any confidential information, but I think it is acceptable to say most of them wanted to focus on their practice, and FreeSangha was a distraction from that. I think you could agree that practice is a noble calling.

Quote
but if it is, why don't the mods do something about it?  Are you that powerless?  John just posted something that was not only untrue but is probably presented with the idea of stirring something up.  You guys want Right Speech, frikkin enforce it!

I think Wonky answered this question very well on the first page of this thread. I don't want to enforce anything, and it would be impossible to enforce everything. Having said that, I winced when I read FMJ's post and I am weighing the pro's and cons of intervening versus ignoring it. I'm not sure the post will survive the night...
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 18, 2013, 07:20:34 pm
Quote
I'm not sure the post will survive the night...
So who is responsible if such survives or not? Or is there anybody a "poor" executor with no self responsibility?
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 07:42:06 pm
Hanzze, I encourage you to read our Terms of Service statement. You have gifted us with many snide remarks and criticisms, all the while proclaiming yourself to be a superior practitioner. These are the teachings of Mara. I suggest you focus on your own practice, and let me be responsible for mine.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Monkey Mind on June 18, 2013, 07:44:48 pm
It was not my intention to dominate this thread. I will abstain from further comment, and let others offer Wonky feedback.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 18, 2013, 08:00:42 pm
Hanzze, I encourage you to read our Terms of Service statement. You have gifted us with many snide remarks and criticisms, all the while proclaiming yourself to be a superior practitioner. These are the teachings of Mara. I suggest you focus on your own practice, and let me be responsible for mine.


And do you think that terms of services will take over your responsibility and take care of your vipaka?

That's basic. If you would start to read what is posted and talked, you would start to understand, maybe: Dhanañjani (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/news-and-announcements/time-for-some-change/msg60851/#msg60851) but since you prefer to continue to do wrong for the sake of this an that, you will not meet the point.

And when it becomes hot: "It was not my intention to dominate this thread. I will abstain from further comment, and let others offer Wonky feedback." giving up ones responsibility to Wonky, TOS, laws, wife, monks, Buddha...
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: ground on June 18, 2013, 08:09:43 pm
Funny buddhists. :teehee:

Never mind. Just sit.  :fu:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 18, 2013, 08:13:03 pm
Sure "never mind" is of cause a beloved "non - buddhist" label
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: reef on June 18, 2013, 11:27:09 pm
I joined this forum with the hope of learning and gaining knowledge and hopefully a few friends ...instead of a loving good living atmosphere i find to my horror that this forum can be the same as many other non buddhist forums i have joined (and since left) and that disappointed me how can i learn about the five precepts when some members on here who are well versed in them seem unable to practise them themselves .....i will hang about and learn as i can but feel my time here would be better spent elsewhere ...
yours all with disappointment
Phil :(

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Lobster on June 19, 2013, 12:25:52 am
I joined this forum with the hope of learning and gaining knowledge and hopefully a few friends ...instead of a loving good living atmosphere i find to my horror that this forum can be the same as many other non buddhist forums i have joined (and since left) and that disappointed me how can i learn about the five precepts when some members on here who are well versed in them seem unable to practise them themselves .....i will hang about and learn as i can but feel my time here would be better spent elsewhere ...
yours all with disappointment
Phil :(

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2


Hi Phil,
New moderator, dharma troll, weakly human and question answering crustacean here . . .  :namaste:

You can and it is good practice set your preferences to ignore posters who do not measure up. I personally will not delete or moderate their examples of wrong or unskillful being - have enough of my own . . . and will be reporting any tendencies to delete the unskilful . . . usually beginning with my self . . .
You should not be surprised or disappointed that Buddhists are trying . . . in every sense of the word.

 :grouphug:

Ask your questions, be friendly and remember if you want it easy and friendly and superficial . . . is that real?
Maybe this heavily moderated forum is more to your inclination?
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php (http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php)

Good luck
Be kind :dharma:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: reef on June 19, 2013, 12:31:03 am
thank you lobster :D i am already a member of the forum mentioned  and am aware it is heavily moderated lol i am simply wondering why some people cant self moderate ;)
i will attempt to intergrate myself into more posting and interactions whilst i am here

with metta
phil
Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: former monk john on June 19, 2013, 12:32:20 am
Sorry if I've failed you, i've started a thread on the 4 noble truths, it didn't go far, I keep mentioning the huge importance of the 5 precepts, did you see my thread under therevada "a visit to the Cambodian Buddist temple" thats the words of a really great cambodian teacher, not me, on the most important things for a beginner. I'll bump the thread for you. hang on Im tryng to bring some basics to this "over the top of your head" buddhist forum. sincerely John. Ive got a two year old thread on another forum of the 5 precepts, Ill try to copy paste it, or rewrite it, your sincerity makes me want to cry, they know not what they do.....
Title: Re: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: reef on June 19, 2013, 12:47:13 am
Sorry if I've failed you, i've started a thread on the 4 noble truths, it didn't go far, I keep mentioning the huge importance of the 5 precepts, did you see my thread under therevada "a visit to the Cambodian Buddist temple" thats the words of a really great cambodian teacher, not me, on the most important things for a beginner. I'll bump the thread for you. hang on Im tryng to bring some basics to this "over the top of your head" buddhist forum. sincerely John. Ive got a two year old thread on another forum of the 5 precepts, Ill try to copy paste it, or rewrite it, your sincerity makes me want to cry, they know not what they do.....
John
You have not failed me or anyone ;D my aim was to join a forum where i could learn and make friends ...i am learning every day ....i learnt today that people can take responsibility for thier actions and try to change something that may nit be quite how or who they wish to be ....i only wish to be able to leave bickering wrong speech and unkind thoughts in the real world whilst i try to walk in Buddhas world ......i am a simple man trying to follow a simple life .....maybe computers are not a good idea lol i much prefer to see the people i chat toobut its not always an option .....i hope you dont feel my post was aimed speciffically at you it was not my intention

enjoy your day
much metta
Phil

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: dazzle.ment on June 19, 2013, 01:26:02 am

Maybe this heavily moderated forum is more to your inclination?
[url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url] ([url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url])



Thanks for your comments, Lobster. Weren't you banned from Dharma Wheel recently, by the way ?

 I prefer to finance and run a website which is well moderated - and if people don't like it then there are at least 6 other Buddhist websites to choose from as well as this one.

Have a lovely day  :pray:
Title: Re: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: reef on June 19, 2013, 01:31:58 am

Maybe this heavily moderated forum is more to your inclination?
[url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url] ([url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url])



Thanks for your comments, Lobster. Weren't you banned from Dhamma Wheel recently, by the way ?

 I prefer to finance and run a website which is well moderated - and if people don't like it then there are at least 6 other Buddhist websites to choose from as well as this one.

Have a lovely day  :pray:


No offence meant ...my sincere apologies if any taken
regards
Phil

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 19, 2013, 06:46:18 am
I joined this forum with the hope of learning and gaining knowledge and hopefully a few friends ...instead of a loving good living atmosphere i find to my horror that this forum can be the same as many other non buddhist forums i have joined (and since left) and that disappointed me how can i learn about the five precepts when some members on here who are well versed in them seem unable to practise them themselves .....i will hang about and learn as i can but feel my time here would be better spent elsewhere ...
yours all with disappointment
Phil :(

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Actually you already have learned something... maybe it was simply not that you like to learn and know, but just seeking "friends".
That is no problem here as well. Just join a opinion, and you will have "friends" like every else in this universe.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: reef on June 19, 2013, 07:13:37 am
Hanzze if you are implying that i am not intersted in learning buddha s teachi gs but simply looking for friends then i can inform you that is not the case .....in the interests of right speech i will tell you that you are an angry man who is ignorant and arrogant and seem to take great delight in upsetting people and trolling .....this will be my last input to you or any topic you may raise so i can live my life without the need to add you to my suffering ....
regards and all the best for your life
Phil

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: songhill on June 19, 2013, 09:55:56 am

Maybe this heavily moderated forum is more to your inclination?
[url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url] ([url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url])



Thanks for your comments, Lobster. Weren't you banned from Dharma Wheel recently, by the way ?

 I prefer to finance and run a website which is well moderated - and if people don't like it then there are at least 6 other Buddhist websites to choose from as well as this one.

Have a lovely day  :pray:


What is the difference between a form that censors and a "well moderated" forum? Here is an example from a well moderated forum. The moderator obviously has it in the for this person and acts more like a censor (North Korean perhaps?). This would never happen on an academic Buddhism forum.

Quote
"You have been allowed to express your screwed up (as far as I am concerned) views but you took advantage of people by using references to materials that you have translated to suit your screwed up (as far as I am concerned) views. You got called on that. Then you had the audacity to refer people to your screwed up (as far as I am concerned) site whilst pretending it was not you (ie you tried to take advantage of the anonimity you thought you possessed). Now you have been called on that too."


Reminds me of E-Sangha.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Lobster on June 19, 2013, 10:10:22 am

Maybe this heavily moderated forum is more to your inclination?
[url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url] ([url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/forum.php[/url])


Thanks for your comments, Lobster. Weren't you banned from Dharma Wheel recently, by the way ?


Yes one moment I was eating cyber popcorn  :popcorn:
The next I was deemed to be talking nonsense . . . something I do to keep myself in practice, I speak fluent gibberish . . .

I was warned, judged and banned - I think for about a week.
I was trained by the dervish Nasrudin to talk nonsense . . . it is a methodology not familiar to some Buddhists . . .

It seems that the Master of Mirth and Chief of the Dervishes, Nasrudin, was once called to pontificate on the 'Nature of Allah' in the local mosque. Present were the many Imams and Doctors of the Islamic Law. Out of courtesy and because Nasrudin could not be counted on saying anything worthwhile, these illustrious guests explained and inspired the audience with their eloquence and wisdom.
Finally it was Nasrudin's turn to explain 'the Nature of Allah'.
"Allah ...", started Nasrudin impressively "is ..."
Nasrudin removed and held up an ovoid mauve vegetable from the folds of his turban, " ... an aubergine."
There was uproar at this blasphemy. When order was finally established, Nasrudin was reluctantly asked to explain his words.
"I conclude that everyone has spoken of what they do not know or have not seen. We can all see this aubergine. Is there anyone who can deny that Allah is manifest in all things?"
Nobody could.
"Very well," said Nasrudin, "Allah is an aubergine."

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin)

 :namaste:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on June 19, 2013, 11:05:03 am
Hanzze if you are implying that i am not intersted in learning buddha s teachi gs but simply looking for friends then i can inform you that is not the case .....in the interests of right speech i will tell you that you are an angry man who is ignorant and arrogant and seem to take great delight in upsetting people and trolling .....this will be my last input to you or any topic you may raise so i can live my life without the need to add you to my suffering ....
regards and all the best for your life
Phil

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Did you ever consider that such could be simply your personal idea? Somebody tells you something that you don't like does not mean that he is angry or filled with ill will put simply may show you that you dislike something, which is at least an unwholesome mind-state for you. But would not touch me anyway.

I really do not suffer with you. If you like to suffer, do it. If you like to learn to find a way out of it, it might be a chance here. Of course avoid external influences as good as possible is the very first step of every trauma therapy as well, but that does not fix the problem. It will enter your mind form behind or from another side.

A good talk by the way:
Cutting New Paths in the Mind (http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17591) kindly transcripted by fivebells
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: GoGet on June 19, 2013, 11:27:46 am
Reminds me of E-Sangha.

Was it?

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Transition on July 05, 2013, 01:13:20 pm
I am a new member here, but not new to practice...I have come here to learn and share...I am one of three administers of a pro-life, suicide prevention forum of 3000 members, over a million posts...we have reduced our 3 page guidelines to one phrase, "be kind" when judging if a thread/post should be deleted or a person be banned.  Clearly our members come with issues that might impede this; and we think our mission is to practice and model kindness.  Usually it is not the 'what' that is being bantered, it is the 'how', the way the person has presented the information.  Periodically, I post in our Information Section a request for kindness...I have found this to be very helpful

When reading the information of this forum, I find the archive system difficult, but not knowing Simple Machines (we are V-Bulletin with an adnon chat) I do not know your system. As a point of information, we started our dictionary in a permanent thread and members added to it.  That way the responsibility did not fall on any one person

Thank you for your generous sharing of your knowledge and understanding...it was quite helpful to me
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Spiny Norman on July 06, 2013, 02:43:14 am
Third, since the Buddha Basics subforum is meant to benefit beginners, I would suggest that we use clear language there. No speaking in koans or replying to a half-page post in only three words without, in that case, explaining it properly. Also I would like to see that members would abstain from fighting and bickering in the Buddha Basics forum.

 :Approval:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Transition on July 07, 2013, 09:02:44 pm
I thought of something else which might be helpful, providing mentorship...this might vary according to what a member is seeking, but establishing these types of relationships benefits both parties
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Hanzze on September 08, 2013, 10:35:03 pm
I have a suggestion for your "problem" and I do it in similar way.

Set up a "choose-able" Membergroup, selectable for everybody. Make the deleted Posts into one forum visible for Amdins, Mods and those who take up this membership.

In this way you can prevent to have posts public visible which should not public visible (copyright, law-breaking stuff, clear harmfull stuff). For those who like to keep their posts (at least it is a work to write a post) nothing is lost. For those who like to look if something was right or wrong, they can take up the membership if they like.

As for the mods, they should provide always a like to the "moved" post. So there is no more deleting necessary and no harm on a raw level necessary. Just moving.

I called this forum "dunghill" right next to the kitchen where the sensual excesses will go on. Sometimes its good to pick up something which was trow on the "dunghill" again and mostly not. How ever, if there is no "dunghill" how could you ever nourish the plants?
That is needed.

As for banner members, I would totally abstain from such. There are many tools of moderation given by the software you have. You can limit them to certain forums or moderate their posts. But no killing. There is no justification for such. NO.

You can put them under moderation just as a sign in their avatar so everybody knows that the mods and admins do not support their ways.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Lobster on September 09, 2013, 01:36:32 am
I second the vote for the dunghill forum. In fact my name for it was 'red room' but dunghill sounds better . . .
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 09, 2013, 01:41:05 am
I second the vote for the dunghill forum.

Isn't flushing better to save embarasment? :wink1:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: namumahaparinirvanasvaha on September 09, 2013, 01:42:59 am
I second the vote for the dunghill forum. In fact my name for it was 'red room' but dunghill sounds better . . .

"red room"  :teehee:

Womens Feet :jinsyx:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: namumahaparinirvanasvaha on September 09, 2013, 01:48:04 am
I second the vote for the dunghill forum.

Isn't flushing better to save embarasment? :wink1:

I have read this entire conversation here and conected to other threads and I still dont have a clue what is being talked about.........the only thing I understood was "red room" and I didnt know we had a "hidden section based on festishes" and im kinda upset nobody here informed me about it.  :huffy:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Dharmakara on September 09, 2013, 02:00:32 am
I second the vote for the dunghill forum. In fact my name for it was 'red room' but dunghill sounds better . . .

The problem for such a subsection is that we would probably need to create an indexing structure mirroring the over-all forum itself, otherwise posts would go into the subsection by date only with no reference to subject or section of the forum from which it was moved --- it would literally be a dunghill, a heep of posts on various topics.

I have read this entire conversation here and conected to other threads and I still dont have a clue what is being talked about.........the only thing I understood was "red room" and I didnt know we had a "hidden section based on festishes" and im kinda upset nobody here informed me about it.  :huffy:

He's actually referring to the admin/mod section where posts are reported.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: namumahaparinirvanasvaha on September 09, 2013, 02:12:09 am
I second the vote for the dunghill forum. In fact my name for it was 'red room' but dunghill sounds better . . .

The problem for such a subsection is that we would probably need to create an indexing structure mirroring the over-all forum itself, otherwise posts would go into the subsection by date only with no reference to subject or section of the forum from which it was moved --- it would literally be a dunghill, a heep of posts on various topics.

I have read this entire conversation here and conected to other threads and I still dont have a clue what is being talked about.........the only thing I understood was "red room" and I didnt know we had a "hidden section based on festishes" and im kinda upset nobody here informed me about it.  :huffy:
He's actually referring to the admin/mod section where posts are reported.

Oh okay.........soooo ummmm about that "red room" am I to understand we dont have a
"secret thread for fetishes" called the "red room".........you know like the ones they have in germany?

I understand if we dont  :wink1:

But I would love if you send me an invite to the "dunghill" or whatever you guys are calling it :wink1:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Dharmakara on September 09, 2013, 02:21:31 am
No, there is no red room or secret thread for fetishes... his comment about "fetishes" is reference to the moderators here, that we remove posts on personal whims.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Atanavat on February 25, 2014, 08:52:36 am
Hello everyone here at freesangha  :namaste: I am new to this forum, and a member at a couple of other forums related to Buddhism. I have also been "lurking" for quite a while on forums - I have not had any bad experiences here or anywhere, but I see myself as very laid back and not easily offended, hurt by words or annoyed at disagreements, and I prefer the "dangers" of an accepting mildly moderated forum to one with a heavy handed moderation (I do not have a specific one in mind).

One thing that bothers me (on behalf of others) in many threads I have read around the forums is the often superior and nonconstructive reaction and style "senior" members with a self image of "higher expertise" have to self-claimed beginners who have good and sound questions who seek answers and/or guidance from people who might be more well-versed than them in the topics in question.

So many times I have read the following, which seems almost like a mantra: "This or that problem you face, is due to clinging, attachment and delusion on your part - go meditate" or something very similar. To me that defeats the very reason for joining and being a member of a forum. That is my  :twocents:

Metta.
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Dharmakara on February 25, 2014, 10:44:44 am
So many times I have read the following, which seems almost like a mantra: "This or that problem you face, is due to clinging, attachment and delusion on your part - go meditate" or something very similar. To me that defeats the very reason for joining and being a member of a forum. That is my  :twocents:

I understand what you mean. but what if such advice is the best that can be offered at the time? There's an old adage that applies to any question that's being asked, namely that the person might not like the answer they receive LOL

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on February 25, 2014, 11:10:03 am
Quote
Atanavat:  So many times I have read the following, which seems almost like a mantra: "This or that problem you face, is due to clinging, attachment and delusion on your part - go meditate" or something very similar. To me that defeats the very reason for joining and being a member of a forum. That is my  :twocents:


Suggest you "carefully" read this : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html)

On a Buddhist website what did you expect for advice to such a question?  Perhaps you could tell us why you object to hearing such advice given it is exactly what The Buddha taught?. If you wanted to hear what Astronauts would do, wouldn't you find it better to go to The NASA Website? :curtain:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Atanavat on February 27, 2014, 01:49:45 am
As there is no example-question in my post - the "advice to such a question?" link and example is not very interesting to me.

My statement was general and not about outlawing this type of answer to any question (strange that you interpret it this way). That is self-evident if you read my post "very carefully"  :wacky:

If your opinion is the general concensus, instead of a forum there should be a website with one front-page saying "This or that problem you face, is due to clinging, attachment and delusion on your part - now p*ss off" 

(and maybe a link to the NASA website)  :D



Maybe that is one for the suggestion box  :lmfao:
Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on February 27, 2014, 07:55:53 am
NASA Website:

http://www.nasa.gov/ (http://www.nasa.gov/)

I would never suggest that any fellow board member "p**s off".  :lipsseald: That would be an example of "wrong" speech. 

Sorry if you found my suggestion and response to your question offensive.  Apologies given.   :hug:

Buddhists usually focus on "What Buddha Taught" and the link I provided you in which you have no interest is what he taught:  "The Four Noble Truths", which is the basis for the kind of responses you will receive when asking for advice on Buddhist forums.

Hope this clarifies my reply to your question. :dharma:

Title: Re: Time for some change?
Post by: Atanavat on February 27, 2014, 10:47:41 am
Yes it does  :namaste: and i apologize for my harsh response as well.
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