Author Topic: Translation of rāgamudacchidā  (Read 1418 times)

Offline dadio

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« on: September 22, 2018, 10:57:51 am »
I've been reading sutta's on and off for a few years now. Of course I found all kind of translated sutta's. Going from very strict translations (and a bit weird/boring) to very loos translations linguistically more pretty and as diverse in results as there are translators. So then I remember the good advice not to accept everything for being true just because...

So I took a Pali version of the sutta's and the "The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary" from the internet. Next I did a bit research on Pali. To be clear, I definitely not a Pali expert! I just wanted to look into some words and phrases.

I'm starting with the Uragasutta. Easy sentences, clear language... Should be a nice easy start right?

Verse 2 has this word: rāgamudacchidā

So I guess I understand raga: Literally - colored, more freely Passion, or even enchantment. I'm sticking to passion for now...
I guess I follow chida: Cut off, breaking.

Most translators translate this as such: '(who has) cut off passion' (https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.01.than.html)

So far so good...

But... Most/all translators seem to forget muda? Or I'm probably not up to speed in translating Pali :-)

As I can find, Muda (or mud) stands for pleasure... In a very literal (and naive) translation, shouldn't it say something like 'who has enjoyably cut off passion'? Or 'who has cut off the passion he enjoys'? Or even 'who has cut off the passion for joy'? Don't know if the muda refers to raga or chida...

Can someone give me some insight on this?

Thanks in advance.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2018, 03:31:20 pm »
rāgamudacchidā = raga + udacchidā

ucchindati
u + chid + ṃ-a
breaks; destroys; cuts off.
cuts off, cuts out; extirpates, destroys.

https://suttacentral.net/define/udacchid%C4%81
https://suttacentral.net/define/ucchindati


rāga
masculine
colour; hue; dye; lust; attachment.

for terminations with letter 'a' ending: "" is added to a masculine noun in the Accusative case (book page 18 PDF page 20 https://host.pariyatti.org/plc/EngPaliGrammar_w.audio.pdf)

accusative case: - indicates the object of action, motion, the duration or space in which an action takes place, it is governed by transitive verbs

Verbs can be transitive, intransitive and both. A transitive verb takes an object: to drink, eat;…… an intransitive verb does not take an object: to die, to go;

from book page 15 Buddho vihāra gacchati The Buddha goes to the monastery

vihāra
masculine

the "m" appears added to the noun "vihāra" in respect to the verb "gacchati" ("goes")

similarly "m" appears added to the noun "raga" in respect to the verb "udacchidā " ("cuts out")

 :namaste:

note: I am only guessing the grammar rules above however there are only two words raga + udacchidā

while not always perfect, use Sutta Central and activate the Pali-English function https://suttacentral.net/snp1.1/pli/ms

click on and scroll across the attachment below

https://imgur.com/a/wx1plhn
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 08:12:42 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline dadio

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 08:48:44 pm »
@VisuddhiRaptor, thanks for your clear explenation. Can I bother you with an other one?

Same sutta, vers 6

'itibhavābhavatañca'

First part 'itiphava' = 'thus becoming'

The second part is unclear for me...

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 09:41:06 pm »
Thanks Dadio. It looks too difficult for me. Possibly, there are four words here, namey, iti (thus), bhava (noun; state of being/existence), bhavati (verb; becoming) and ca (and). Thus it would translate: "becoming into this state of existence and becoming into that state of existence". Otherwise, the words are bhava (becoming) and abhava (not becoming); thus the translation is "this being and not-being".

I recommend to ask your question on Sutta Central or at Dhammawheel.

Regards  :namaste:

The translations on the internet of Snp 1.1 and Ud 2.10  are:

Yassantarato na santi kopā,
Itibhavābhavatañca vītivatto;
So bhikkhu jahāti orapāraṃ,
Urago jiṇṇamivattacaṃ purāṇaṃ.

Who keeps no grudges inwardly
but this “being-not being” has gone beyond;
a bhikkhu such leaves here and there
as a serpent sloughs its worn-out skin.

In whom exist no inner stirrings,
Having passed beyond being this or that,
Free from fear, blissful and sorrowless,
The devas are not capable of seeing him.

From whose heart
there is no provocation,
& for whom becoming & non-becoming
   are overcome,
he — beyond fear,
   blissful,
   with no grief —
is one the devas can't see.

“For he who has no agitations inside the mind,
Who has thus completely transcended continuity of existence,
The devas are unable to see
He who is without fear, happy, and griefless.”

The monk with no inner anger,
who has thus gone beyond
becoming & not-,
   sloughs off the near shore & far —
   as a snake, its decrepit old skin.

He who bears no grudges in his heart,
transcending all this "thus" and "otherwise,"
 — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 09:44:49 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline dadio

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 08:40:57 am »
Again many thanks for your insight. You don't have to be to humble. What you wrote, doesn't seem to be all that wrong...

I have a realy trustworthy dutch translation from a non buddhistic scolar. And he also had to be creatif in finding a translation that made some sense. He translated the term(s) as 'uncertain rebirth'.
Which I find remarkable creative for a non buddhist translator who tries to translate more to te letter in staid of trying to mimic the poetic metrum...

I intentionally don't have an opinion about rebirth, so I feld I wanted to have a more suitable translation than 'uncertain rebirth'...

I'll probably will take some time pondering on your contribution ;-)

It'll give me something to do, right?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 03:07:27 am »
Its not "rebirth". "Bhava" means for the mind to become a self-identity due to craving & attachment.

Regards  :namaste:

Quote
"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

Offline dadio

  • Member
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of rāgamudacchidā
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 06:16:40 am »
Right. Thanks.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal