Author Topic: Gaining merits on internet  (Read 4150 times)

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 02:29:03 am »
So what about just excepting duality for the time of posting and return to the OP? *smile* Should be no problem with so much understanding.

"Duality"? What makes you think this ?

"duality", "merit", "holy life"
Just intellect & ideas.
There is no end of these ... and you are right "there is no problem with so much understanding".


So whats the intention of being involved in Dharma discussions beside making Dana (letting go of with wholesome side effects)?

Exactly ... dana is letting go of ... letting go of expecting "wholesome side effect". The merit is letting go of "merit", letting go of "holy life" ... this then is "holy life" after having let go of everything ... even of "life".


Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 02:48:43 am »
Just beware that is not quite an illusion. As long in worldly field its good to be attached in this previous life, even after as a raft and as a good sample and gain the best of it, the rest comes one time by one self. Nihilism is a pretty danger, as well as there is no need of it till the real cessation of suffering. *smile*
Letting go of live is not Dana, but even the Buddha is (in some strange Jatakas) told of had done so, while still an unenlightened being.

So let us talk about "ordinary" meritorious deeds of the OP, once we are secure of SIDS as well we make small steps forward to real inside naturally. Right concentration with a balanced right effort, pushed by uprising Saddha attaining more and more wisdom, dwelling on the unsinkable ferry of mindfulness. *smile*
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 02:50:42 am by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 03:04:53 am »
Just beware that is not quite an illusion.

Ah .. you did not listen earlier ...

Let me make one thing clear: I do not believe that there is something that can be validly called "illusion".

Why?

Because the affirmative thought "illusion" presupposes that there is something that can be validly regarded as "non-illusion".


http://www.freesangha.com/forums/practice-tools/illusory-peace/msg45341/#msg45341


Nihilism is a pretty danger, as well as there is no need of it till the real cessation of suffering. *smile*

"Nihilism" is a meaningless symbol. What do you fear ... the meaningless symbol compounded of meaningless characters or the meaning you are fabricating upon eye contact and the reification caused by unwise attention?


So let us talk about "ordinary" meritorious deeds of the OP, once we are secure of SIDS as well we make small steps forward to real inside naturally. Right concentration with a balanced right effort, pushed by uprising Saddha attaining more and more wisdom, dwelling on the unsinkable ferry of mindfulness. *smile*

If you desire affirmation of your ideas then I am not the one to do you that favor.
Your kind of argument can be encountered at many places. It goes like that: "So let's put aside wisdom for the time being and talk about {XYZ}"


But do not be discouraged.

All that communication is perfect.

Why?

Through being your teacher you are being mine and vice versa.  :)


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:11:19 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 03:16:17 am »
Could it be that we often carry things with us, which hinder us to stay on topic? *smile* For sure it would be a great thing to create a back hole (central topic) where we can take all with us and in there it would disappear. Sometimes its better to let go just step by step. This carry on is hardly to bear and we rotate always around the same point. Not that it is useless, as all is from use as long as we learn from it.

So what? Throw it away or carry on asks the mirror? *smile*
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:17:59 am by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 03:21:42 am »
Initially the Buddha was reluctant to teach.

Why?

Because He knew that He would have to put aside wisdom in order to teach and that people would erroneously perceive His "putting aside wisdom" as wisdom.


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Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 03:29:06 am »
That's a good branch to follow, but let me indicate another perspective.

Even the Buddha still remains on being involved in Dhamma discussions (well for sure in another way and on the soil of an harmless environment for thirds). Why?

An complete being beside the self awakening sometimes continue to be involved and sometimes not. Why?

What would a Paccekabuddha do, if lacking of the talent to teach?

*smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 03:34:13 am »
Look for the answers here:

Quote
SN 35.23 The All
At savatthi. "Bhikkhus I will teach you the all. Listen to that. ...
"And what, Bhikkhus is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all.
"If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: 'Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast on his part.  If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further he would meet with vexation. Because bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.
Translation by B. Bodhi

And here:

Quote
SN 35.27 Full understanding
...
"And what bhikkhus is the all ...?
The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness. The ear and sounds and ear-consciousness and things to be cognized by ear-consciousness. The nose and odours and  nose-consciousness and things to be cognized by nose-consciousness. The tongue and tastes and tongue-consciousness and things to be cognized by tongue-consciousness. The body and tactile objects and body-consciousness and things to be cognized by body-consciousness. The mind and mental phenomena and mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness.
...
This, bhikkhus, is the all without by directly knowing and fully understanding which, without developing dispassion towards which and abandoning which, one is incapable of destroying suffering.
...


And here:

Quote
SN 35.28 Burning
...
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what bhikkhus, is the all that is burning?
The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion. Burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say ...
The ear is burning, sounds are burning, ear-consciousness is burning, ear-contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with ear-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion. Burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say ...
The nose is burning, odours are burning, nose-consciousness is burning, nose -contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with nose -contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion. Burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say ...
The tongue is burning, tastes are burning, tongue-consciousness is burning, tongue -contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with tongue -contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion. Burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say ... 
The body is burning, tactile objects are burning, body-consciousness is burning, body -contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with body-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion. Burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say ... 
The mind is burning, mental phenomena are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant - that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion. Burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say ... 

Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye, towards forms, towards eye-consciousness, towards eye-contact, towards whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant;
experiences revulsion towards the ear, towards sounds, towards ear-consciousness, towards ear-contact, towards whatever feeling arises with ear-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant;
experiences revulsion towards the nose, towards odours, towards nose-consciousness, towards nose-contact, towards whatever feeling arises with nose-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant;
experiences revulsion towards the tongue, towards tastes, towards tongue-consciousness, towards tongue-contact, towards whatever feeling arises with tongue-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant;
experiences revulsion towards the body, towards tactile objects, towards body-consciousness, towards body-contact, towards whatever feeling arises with body-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant;
experiences revulsion towards the mind, towards mental phenomena, towards mind-consciousness, towards mind-contact, towards whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor- pleasant.
Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge 'It's liberated.' He understands: 'Destroyed s birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'"
...

Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2011, 03:40:20 am »
Its not easy to speak with beings in the celestial realms... *smile* if you do on in that way you could even create a www-Buddhafield.

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2011, 03:42:00 am »
I do not expect that anything can stop your papanca :lmfao:

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2011, 03:48:01 am »
It could be a sign of heavy attachment *smile* and vedana accrues. Let me give you a link to the two kinds of moha: Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.

That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free. Even this sublime moha can effect much heavy akusala karma. *smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2011, 03:55:30 am »
That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free.

That is what I have been trying to convey but you keep on advocating the worldly.

Quote
Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahat, anusaya moha, is present;
Which also holds true for conceit.


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:57:05 am by TMingyur. »

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2011, 04:03:08 am »
Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.


BTW these are not the words of the Buddha. This is sectarian literature.

Better to stay with the sutta pitaka exclusively because only these are the transmitted words of the Buddha.


All traditions have their Abhidhammas and commentaries.


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 04:06:18 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 04:07:02 am »
That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free.


That is what I have been trying to convey but you keep on advocating the worldly.

Quote
Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahat, anusaya moha, is present;

Which also holds true for conceit.


Kind regards


So would there be a wholesome soil for people having reached some attainments to be involved in Dhamma discussions? If so, in which kind of language would they discuss? *smile*

Its always a matter of better, worse equal am I (mana) till the highest goal, that hinders to the highest goal.

If one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body that is impermanent, painful and subject to change, what else is it than not seeing reality? Or if one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness, what else is it than not seeing reality? If one does not regard himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body, the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness what else is it than seeing reality?

— SN 22.49


Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.


BTW these are not the words of the Buddha. This is sectarian literature.

Better to stay with the sutta pitaka exclusively because one these are the transmitted words of the Buddha.


Kind regards

Yes, yes that is the discriminating mind or the comparative (mana) *smile* Wish you the sutta gives some release.

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 05:05:40 am »
That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free.


That is what I have been trying to convey but you keep on advocating the worldly.

Quote
Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahat, anusaya moha, is present;

Which also holds true for conceit.


Kind regards


So would there be a wholesome soil for people having reached some attainments to be involved in Dhamma discussions?

If they are losing their obsessions about "attainments", yes.

If so, in which kind of language would they discuss? *smile*

Conventional language. 


Its always a matter of better, worse equal am I (mana) till the highest goal, that hinders to the highest goal.

If one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body that is impermanent, painful and subject to change, what else is it than not seeing reality? Or if one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness, what else is it than not seeing reality? If one does not regard himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body, the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness what else is it than seeing reality?

— SN 22.49

Conceit is overcome once there is nothing more to let go of.


Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.


BTW these are not the words of the Buddha. This is sectarian literature.

Better to stay with the sutta pitaka exclusively because one these are the transmitted words of the Buddha.


Kind regards

Yes, yes that is the discriminating mind or the comparative (mana) *smile* Wish you the sutta gives some release.

There is nothing wrong with discriminating mind. How would you discern right view with effluents and wrong view with effluents without it?

Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 05:07:15 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 05:41:02 am »
That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free.


That is what I have been trying to convey but you keep on advocating the worldly.

Quote
Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahat, anusaya moha, is present;

Which also holds true for conceit.


Kind regards


So would there be a wholesome soil for people having reached some attainments to be involved in Dhamma discussions?

If they are losing their obsessions about "attainments", yes.

So why did Buddha send them to out in the forest and on secluded places, rather to encourage them to discuss on? I have doubts that somebody having attained fruits already would gain the losing the higher obsessions while being involved in discussions. Maybe he would gain more reasons to seek for further secluded practice, but there is for sure a danger to fall in love with this "job". *smile*

If so, in which kind of language would they discuss? *smile*

Conventional language. 

Would they? Why, if they had reached some transcendence?

Its always a matter of better, worse equal am I (mana) till the highest goal, that hinders to the highest goal.

If one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body that is impermanent, painful and subject to change, what else is it than not seeing reality? Or if one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness, what else is it than not seeing reality? If one does not regard himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body, the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness what else is it than seeing reality?

— SN 22.49

Conceit is overcome once there is nothing more to let go of.

If there is nothing more to let go of, why is there still taking and giving or is is balanced?

Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.


BTW these are not the words of the Buddha. This is sectarian literature.

Better to stay with the sutta pitaka exclusively because one these are the transmitted words of the Buddha.


Kind regards

Yes, yes that is the discriminating mind or the comparative (mana) *smile* Wish you the sutta gives some release.

There is nothing wrong with discriminating mind. How would you discern right view with effluents and wrong view with effluents without it?

Kind regards

Is there a different between the discriminating mind of a ordinary person and one of already attained fruition?
I don't think that right view is better "visible" but could be starched by just turning the eightfold path one more time. For the "ordinary" man, I guess its very important to discriminate as long as he is involved in worldly livelihood and ordinary dependency. Its not wise (if it would be really possible) to give up mana before the other obsessions, if this happens synthetic it leads to *IDS and could push one even in very deep realms. *smile*

 


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