Author Topic: Gaining merits on internet  (Read 4149 times)

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2011, 06:41:58 am »
That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free.


That is what I have been trying to convey but you keep on advocating the worldly.

Quote
Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahat, anusaya moha, is present;

Which also holds true for conceit.


Kind regards


So would there be a wholesome soil for people having reached some attainments to be involved in Dhamma discussions?

If they are losing their obsessions about "attainments", yes.

So why did Buddha send them to out in the forest and on secluded places, rather to encourage them to discuss on?

You asked and I replied "If ... then ... ".
Neither did I say that the Buddha recommended discussions nor did I say that discussions necessarily lead to abandonment of obsessions.

The Buddha certainly knew the conditions of his followers at that time.

On the other hand there have been dhamma discussions among the monks accordin to suttas.


I have doubts that somebody having attained fruits already would gain the losing the higher obsessions while being involved in discussions. Maybe he would gain more reasons to seek for further secluded practice, but there is for sure a danger to fall in love with this "job". *smile*

The speculations may be endless. But what's the use of speculations?


If so, in which kind of language would they discuss? *smile*

Conventional language. 

Would they? Why, if they had reached some transcendence?

Why not?
But may be there are other means of communication too, like gestures etc.
Why is this interesting for you?


Its always a matter of better, worse equal am I (mana) till the highest goal, that hinders to the highest goal.

If one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body that is impermanent, painful and subject to change, what else is it than not seeing reality? Or if one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness, what else is it than not seeing reality? If one does not regard himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body, the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness what else is it than seeing reality?

— SN 22.49

Conceit is overcome once there is nothing more to let go of.

If there is nothing more to let go of, why is there still taking and giving or is is balanced?

Don't know what you are referring to. What is "taking and giving" and "balanced" in this context?


Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.


BTW these are not the words of the Buddha. This is sectarian literature.

Better to stay with the sutta pitaka exclusively because one these are the transmitted words of the Buddha.


Kind regards

Yes, yes that is the discriminating mind or the comparative (mana) *smile* Wish you the sutta gives some release.

There is nothing wrong with discriminating mind. How would you discern right view with effluents and wrong view with effluents without it?

Kind regards

Is there a different between the discriminating mind of a ordinary person and one of already attained fruition?

Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on what concept of "discriminating mind" you are having in mind. Mere differentiation is most likely present in all but the "additions" may be different or lacking completely in the non-ordinary.


Its not wise (if it would be really possible) to give up mana before the other obsessions, if this happens synthetic it leads to *IDS and could push one even in very deep realms. *smile*

What is "giving up mana"? Abandonment is abandonment. If there is abandonment in the way taught by the Buddha and quoted above it is utterly impossible to have the results you are referring to with "*IDS and could push one even in very deep realms."


Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2011, 07:37:20 am »
That is the reason why it is useful to stay away form worldly issues till one is really free.


That is what I have been trying to convey but you keep on advocating the worldly.

Quote
Therefore, even at the moment of performing good deeds or wholesome actions before becoming an Arahat, anusaya moha, is present;

Which also holds true for conceit.


Kind regards


So would there be a wholesome soil for people having reached some attainments to be involved in Dhamma discussions?

If they are losing their obsessions about "attainments", yes.

So why did Buddha send them to out in the forest and on secluded places, rather to encourage them to discuss on?

You asked and I replied "If ... then ... ".
Neither did I say that the Buddha recommended discussions nor did I say that discussions necessarily lead to abandonment of obsessions.

The Buddha certainly knew the conditions of his followers at that time.

On the other hand there have been dhamma discussions among the monks accordin to suttas.

So maybe it was depending on the individual level of his disciples? I don't think that there is no red line but a dependency of what and how was taught. I don't think there was one time a call back from the seclude into involvement, the most suttas show us that there was the opposite what was forced. *smile*

Today of cause there is more self determination needed, as well as the understanding for it.

I have doubts that somebody having attained fruits already would gain the losing the higher obsessions while being involved in discussions. Maybe he would gain more reasons to seek for further secluded practice, but there is for sure a danger to fall in love with this "job". *smile*

The speculations may be endless. But what's the use of speculations?

So could you give some reasonable points how one could get ride of higher obsessions while being involved in discussions?

If so, in which kind of language would they discuss? *smile*

Conventional language. 

Would they? Why, if they had reached some transcendence?

Why not?
But may be there are other means of communication too, like gestures etc.
Why is this interesting for you?

As you had told before, there would be a need to lay down of wisdom to teach or speak in conventional language. If one is not at the high point, it could cost a lot of energy and its not sure it that would be the right effort according to the transcendent eightfold path.  So form my view it would need an amount of wrong view to do so. What should be the beneficial reason for it?

Its always a matter of better, worse equal am I (mana) till the highest goal, that hinders to the highest goal.

If one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body that is impermanent, painful and subject to change, what else is it than not seeing reality? Or if one regards himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness, what else is it than not seeing reality? If one does not regard himself superior or equal or inferior by reason of the body, the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness what else is it than seeing reality?

— SN 22.49

Conceit is overcome once there is nothing more to let go of.

If there is nothing more to let go of, why is there still taking and giving or is is balanced?

Don't know what you are referring to. What is "taking and giving" and "balanced" in this context?

If there is nothing more to let go of, there is no more intention. If there is no more intention there would no discussion arise. If there is a cause of being involved (intention leads to karma) there would be the need of keeping it in balance. Or do you believe that even wholesome actions do not have an effect and cause new things which must be given back (balance)?

Anusaya Moha and Pariyutthana Moha.


BTW these are not the words of the Buddha. This is sectarian literature.

Better to stay with the sutta pitaka exclusively because one these are the transmitted words of the Buddha.


Kind regards

Yes, yes that is the discriminating mind or the comparative (mana) *smile* Wish you the sutta gives some release.

There is nothing wrong with discriminating mind. How would you discern right view with effluents and wrong view with effluents without it?

Kind regards

Is there a different between the discriminating mind of a ordinary person and one of already attained fruition?

Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on what concept of "discriminating mind" you are having in mind. Mere differentiation is most likely present in all but the "additions" may be different or lacking completely in the non-ordinary.

Literary we know that a person who have not attained fruition will judge as unjust as there would mass of unwholesome deeds, while a person who had attained a fruition is no more able to set major unwholesome actions. So I guess there is a significant difference in judgement (discrimination).

Its not wise (if it would be really possible) to give up mana before the other obsessions, if this happens synthetic it leads to *IDS and could push one even in very deep realms. *smile*

What is "giving up mana"? Abandonment is abandonment. If there is abandonment in the way taught by the Buddha and quoted above it is utterly impossible to have the results you are referring to with "*IDS and could push one even in very deep realms."

Kind regards

Yes, I think so, but there is sometimes a tendency to create a synthetic non-attachment to compensate the wrong livelihood when trying to turn the wheel of the eightfold path. *smile* So on the advised way this mana is till the end a very good pointer that let us know where we are.

I guess it will need some good effort to make one quote pyramid out of this many branches again, but I guess we can do this. *smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2011, 08:16:10 am »
So could you give some reasonable points how one could get ride of higher obsessions while being involved in discussions?
Someone being obsessed with having attained stream entry experiencing the dukkha of  clinging to views.
Or someone being obsesses with having attained arhatship experiencing the dukkha of conceit.
The first may rid himself of the obsession of stream entry while the latter may rid himself with the obsession of arhatship.


As you had told before, there would be a need to lay down of wisdom to teach or speak in conventional language. If one is not at the high point, it could cost a lot of energy and its not sure it that would be the right effort according to the transcendent eightfold path.  So form my view it would need an amount of wrong view to do so. What should be the beneficial reason for it?
To help others to liberate themselves from delusions / obsessions.


If there is nothing more to let go of, there is no more intention. If there is no more intention there would no discussion arise. If there is a cause of being involved (intention leads to karma) there would be the need of keeping it in balance. Or do you believe that even wholesome actions do not have an effect and cause new things which must be given back (balance)?
You are comitting the error of assessing from an ordinary perspective. When the aggregates have ceased you cannot presuppose the aggregates and reason on that basis.


Literary we know that a person who have not attained fruition will judge as unjust as there would mass of unwholesome deeds, while a person who had attained a fruition is no more able to set major unwholesome actions. So I guess there is a significant difference in judgement (discrimination).
It is most likely the volitional formations that delude assessments in the ordinary.


Yes, I think so, but there is sometimes a tendency to create a synthetic non-attachment to compensate the wrong livelihood when trying to turn the wheel of the eightfold path. *smile* So on the advised way this mana is till the end a very good pointer that let us know where we are.

You seem to not take the teachings of the Buddha seriously.

When abandonment of all sense bases and consciousnesses and objects/ideas of these consciousnesses is taught by the Buddha then He means what He is teaching. And when I refer to these higher teachings I am seriously meaning what I am saying.
There is nothing to compensate because if there would remain something to compensate then this would be a sign of abandonment having failed.
And if there would be fabricated "synthetic non-attachment" then this would be just attachment to a mere thought and again a sign of abandonment having failed.

You are conceptually limiting "abandonment" to what you conceive of as "wholesome" ideas that are a means to subdue "unwholesome" ideas. Therefore when you think "abandonment" your next thought is of unwholesome ideas prevailing since there is lack of wholesome counter-ideas due to abandonment. But this thinking of yours is limited to your object of attachment which are wholesome ideas. Abandonment taught by the Buddha however refers to all kinds of ideas, both wholesome and unwholesome. Therefore negative effects are utterly impossible if abandonment is practiced as taught by the Buddha.


Now if we refer to the failure of abandonment I mentioned, this of course has to be discerned and one becomes aware of it through distriminating mind and one maybe alters one's practice of abandonment to accomodate to this failure. This then is the activity of discriminating mind and if this is what you refer to with "mana is till the end a very good pointer that let us know where we are" then I agree ...

BUT ...

There is no need for trying to gain some merit or pursue the worldly way you are advocating, if there is failure of abandonment.
Why?
Because one may focus one's practice exclusively on the abandonment as taught by the Buddha.

Now you may say: But someone may simply not have the capacity to know how to go about, how to approach this abandonment.
To this I say: Then teach him exactly that but do not teach him the worldly way of gaining merits instead.

Then there may arise the question: But who teaches that? Where are the teachers?

And here we arrive at my critique of traditions who first persuade their followers to accepting that they are like deer, sheep and goats and then they teach them worldly ways of gaining, gathering, buiding up, collecting, worldly ways of hope and fear.
They teach them vipassana techniques as if they could find a push buttom to cause liberation when pushed. In actuality they will just find that what they have been taught before.


Actually it is the Satipatthana Sutta that conveys all techniques/objects required for pracicing the abandoment as taught by the Buddha. There is no need to practice anything else, especially the "dhammas with reference to the five clinging-aggregates" and "dhammas with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media" are sufficient. Of course study is needed because otherwise the reference to the five clinging-aggregates and the sixfold internal & external sense media cannot be made.



Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:00:16 am by TMingyur. »

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2011, 09:04:37 am »
deleted ... quoting error
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:06:15 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2011, 07:00:20 pm »
So could you give some reasonable points how one could get ride of higher obsessions while being involved in discussions?

Someone being obsessed with having attained stream entry experiencing the dukkha of  clinging to views.
Or someone being obsesses with having attained arhatship experiencing the dukkha of conceit.
The first may rid himself of the obsession of stream entry while the latter may rid himself with the obsession of arhatship.

That was not the question, as I am not sure if a person having attained fruition would gain further fruition while being involved in discussions. That does not mean that he would find reasons while involved in discussions for work on to get rid of other obsessions. Therefore the question: "Could you give some reasonable points how one could get ride of higher obsessions while being involved in discussions?" Maybe additional: In which state of mind is one able to get rid of higher obsessions?
Further I am not sure what a completed being (I didn't used Arahntship, because it gives rise to deflecting attachments if one is attached to sectarian) should get rid of.

As you had told before, there would be a need to lay down of wisdom to teach or speak in conventional language. If one is not at the high point, it could cost a lot of energy and its not sure it that would be the right effort according to the transcendent eightfold path.  So form my view it would need an amount of wrong view to do so. What should be the beneficial reason for it?

To help others to liberate themselves from delusions / obsessions.

To sacrifice virtue and own possibilities for the sake of liberating others is a sectarian view and was not taught by the Buddha. Further not liberated him self, he would not be able to help others. That would be always in the best case a taking on one hand and giving on the other hand, if its performed good till the amount of balanced, usually worse if there is no constantly improvement and change of livelihood (if karmic possible) *smile*


If there is nothing more to let go of, there is no more intention. If there is no more intention there would no discussion arise. If there is a cause of being involved (intention leads to karma) there would be the need of keeping it in balance. Or do you believe that even wholesome actions do not have an effect and cause new things which must be given back (balance)?

You are comitting the error of assessing from an ordinary perspective. When the aggregates have ceased you cannot presuppose the aggregates and reason on that basis.

As well as you would not have intentions which are not according to you achievements.

Literary we know that a person who have not attained fruition will judge as unjust as there would mass of unwholesome deeds, while a person who had attained a fruition is no more able to set major unwholesome actions. So I guess there is a significant difference in judgement (discrimination).

It is most likely the volitional formations that delude assessments in the ordinary.

Yes, so what is the right intention on the transcendentally noble eightfold path?
Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Yes, I think so, but there is sometimes a tendency to create a synthetic non-attachment to compensate the wrong livelihood when trying to turn the wheel of the eightfold path. *smile* So on the advised way this mana is till the end a very good pointer that let us know where we are.


You seem to not take the teachings of the Buddha seriously.

When abandonment of all sense bases and consciousnesses and objects/ideas of these consciousnesses is taught by the Buddha then He means what He is teaching. And when I refer to these higher teachings I am seriously meaning what I am saying.
There is nothing to compensate because if there would remain something to compensate then this would be a sign of abandonment having failed.
And if there would be fabricated "synthetic non-attachment" then this would be just attachment to a mere thought and again a sign of abandonment having failed.

Compensation happens aware or unaware. One happens out of bearing the situation like it is without knowing the reason and one happens with knowing the situation and still not having found a way out.

You are conceptually limiting "abandonment" to what you conceive of as "wholesome" ideas that are a means to subdue "unwholesome" ideas. Therefore when you think "abandonment" your next thought is of unwholesome ideas prevailing since there is lack of wholesome counter-ideas due to abandonment. But this thinking of yours is limited to your object of attachment which are wholesome ideas. Abandonment taught by the Buddha however refers to all kinds of ideas, both wholesome and unwholesome. Therefore negative effects are utterly impossible if abandonment is practiced as taught by the Buddha.

How could there be "abandonment" if there are still effects? While it is natural that there are effects if there is no "abandonment" but a sublime dislike.
Abandonment is the way the Buddha had taught (we can call it also the improvement while turning the eightfold path), but there is no dwelling in abandonment till the highest goal is reached and it is also not taught for being an excuse for still arising effects in a manner: they have no results.

Now if we refer to the failure of abandonment I mentioned, this of course has to be discerned and one becomes aware of it through distriminating mind and one maybe alters one's practice of abandonment to accomodate to this failure. This then is the activity of discriminating mind and if this is what you refer to with "mana is till the end a very good pointer that let us know where we are" then I agree ...

*smile*


BUT ...

There is no need for trying to gain some merit or pursue the worldly way you are advocating, if there is failure of abandonment.
Why?
Because one may focus one's practice exclusively on the abandonment as taught by the Buddha.

Now you may say: But someone may simply not have the capacity to know how to go about, how to approach this abandonment.
To this I say: Then teach him exactly that but do not teach him the worldly way of gaining merits instead.

A worldly livelihood needs worldly letting go of. Its not possible to let go oft mind possessions, if not trained material first. From the rawly to subtle. It the tasks are not done step by step, they are hindrances and hurtful later and may end in disorder. There is a lot of responsibility and therefore even a serious journeyman would taught just the way it was taught be the master and not a compromise way.

Then there may arise the question: But who teaches that? Where are the teachers?

And here we arrive at my critique of traditions who first persuade their followers to accepting that they are like deer, sheep and goats and then they teach them worldly ways of gaining, gathering, buiding up, collecting, worldly ways of hope and fear.
They teach them vipassana techniques as if they could find a push buttom to cause liberation when pushed. In actuality they will just find that what they have been taught before.


Actually it is the Satipatthana Sutta that conveys all techniques/objects required for pracicing the abandoment as taught by the Buddha. There is no need to practice anything else, especially the "dhammas with reference to the five clinging-aggregates" and "dhammas with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media" are sufficient. Of course study is needed because otherwise the reference to the five clinging-aggregates and the sixfold internal & external sense media cannot be made.

Kind regards

There is nothing wrong, but the failures are still everywhere the same, virtue. Seeing that the whole eightfold path can not be developed in the right amount, the Buddha did not really teach Satipatthana Sutta or other Inside Meditation to someone who has not developed the worldly eightfold path to a good amount, but he was engaged to encourage ordinary people to work on their liberation where they are, explained them the value of the very fist step of letting go, of Dana and the value of virtue and further the other ten kinds of wholesome actions to reach the possibility to enter the transcendent eightfold noble path after having completed the worldly eightfold path. Fore sure there are situations (out of past merits) that one could suddenly enter the transcendent eightfold noble path there where he/she is, but even that is based on the merits of the past.

Maybe this short explaining is useful on this point:

Quote
from "Who is a lay person?" on dhammadana.org

Finally, among the people who adhere to the dhamma, all those who are not bhikkhus, or sāmaṇeras, or nuns are laity. We can divide lay people into three categories:

* There are some laity who, although approving Buddha's word, only dedicate their life a little, or not at all, to the practice of the dhamma. They like to claim that they are Buddhists, but do little else than run after pleasures and engage in business activities; if they observe one or two precepts, it is only because it is easy for them; they don't want to dedicate any effort to the rest. Even though they claim to be inclined to meditation, they convince themselves that they never have any time to practice it.

*   There are also lay people who try to dedicate more time and effort to follow a way suitable to the development of knowledge (of reality). They more or less observe the five precepts (sometimes the eight), they like everything that concerns the dhamma aesthetically (monuments, statues, ceremonies), they readily spend time reciting texts dealing with Buddha's teaching, watching the quality of their actions, regularly making donations, attending meditation sessions, and sometimes, taking ordination for a short period.

*   Finally, there are laity who, within their possibilities, try their best to progress quickly and effectively on the path to the cessation of suffering. These ones very regularly train in being generous, in being vigilant and in applying full mindfulness. Their observance of the five precepts, if not eight, is scrupulous. Some of them even intend to lead a monastic life permanently.

Although they all point to a sole aim, the objectives of Buddha's teaching are very diverse. They consist, among others, in:

->    Inducing the first category of laity to improve their way of life so as to become laity of the second category.

->    Encouraging the laity of the second category to maintain the positive aspects of their way of life and inciting them to improve on this so as to become laity of the third category.

->    Encouraging the laity of the third category to maintain the positive aspects of their way of life and suggesting them the experience of complete renunciation.


(please try to be not attached by lay or monastic in the usual level, the real different is to be found in the livelihood)

*smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2011, 10:02:54 pm »
Therefore the question: "Could you give some reasonable points how one could get ride of higher obsessions while being involved in discussions?" Maybe additional: In which state of mind is one able to get rid of higher obsessions?

You just have to be mindful of sankharas. You catch them when they arise and then you let them go.


To sacrifice virtue and own possibilities for the sake of liberating others is a sectarian view ...

"sacrifice virtue" is your fabrication which does not follow from what I said.


As well as you would not have intentions which are not according to you achievements.

Abandonment leads to non-intentions.

Yes, so what is the right intention on the transcendentally noble eightfold path?
Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Letting go of intentions is letting go of effluents. Of course you may cultivate effluents which seems to be the way you prefer.

Compensation happens aware or unaware. One happens out of bearing the situation like it is without knowing the reason and one happens with knowing the situation and still not having found a way out.

You don't seem to have experienced the meaning of mindfulness.

How could there be "abandonment" if there are still effects?

If there are effects there is no abandonment and the practice of adandonment is to be continued. That is the practice of continuous mindfulness.

A worldly livelihood needs worldly letting go of. Its not possible to let go oft mind possessions, if not trained material first.

This is your obsession. I cannot do anything about your obsessions.


There is nothing wrong, ...

Although that sounds good when being attached to harmony it is not right that nothing is wrong in all contexts  :)

Your way is not wrong if taken simply by terms and terminology. Actually most of it (not all) was taught by the Buddha and the Buddha is right.
It seems however that you have cultivated severe obsessions about some ideas of yours.

Be that as it may. Sooner or later you will encounter abandonment, either before death or after death.

Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 10:06:16 pm by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2011, 10:20:25 pm »
When reading you arguments once more after a while, do you see that they mostly seem that there is a lot of attached to comparison ("you", "I", better, worse, equal)?

Also you start to let go of previous quotes. Its not easy to carry them on as it needs much mindfulness to do not mix the different pyramids and needs patients. Concentration and effort need to be balanced. If the concentration is to strong and effort to weak, laziness arises. If effort is to strong and concentration is to weak, restlessness arises.

What do you think, should be carry on or give it another tread later? *smile* Or do you think it is good and we have the origin of every answer still in mind.

Sometimes we can go back to the OP again.

Maybe a story to refresh it and the cause why we have to work on the simple things first:

Quote
kamma and the pāramīs from dhammadana.org

In a prison cell lived four men. The first was ignorant and lazy, the second was ignorant and hard working, the third was skilful and lazy, and the fourth was skilful and hard working. Each had the possibility to work and earn a little money.

The lazy ignoramus had a thoroughly miserable existence; he did nothing at all during the day, was terribly bored and never obtained anything more than the bare minimum for his subsistence.

The hard-working ignoramus enjoyed a more comfortable life, because his work allowed him extra food and small treats such as a bottle of wine or magazines.

The skilful lazy person did not have a very pleasant existence. As he did not put any effort in his work, he did not earn the money needed to buy things that would have allowed him to enjoy a better quality of life. However, knowing how to think, he suffered less than the lazy ignoramus, because he knew how to manage his condition better. Thus, he succeeded more easily in being satisfied with little. However, his incorrigible laziness eventually prevented him from thinking properly.

The skilful worker was competent in his work. Knowing how to think properly, he knew how to manage his money wisely. He learnt to content himself with little to save most of the money he earned. He had nothing good to drink or eat, or pleasant readings to offer himself. Nevertheless, after a while, having endured the necessary time, he was able to pay off the bail to get out of prison.

To make the analogy of this story, we can say that:

The prison represents the continual dissatisfaction of existence (dukkha), with its "ups and downs", the cycle of rebirths (saṃsarā).

    Ignorance represents ignorance.
    Skill represents wisdom.
    Laziness represents the lack of motivation to cultivate wholesome actions.
    Work represents effort (the effort to develop and maintain what is beneficial, the effort to practice properly).
    The money represents the consequence of positive actions, merit (kusala).
    The release represents liberation (from any form of dissatisfaction).

Conclusion: To develop merit, it is necessary to perform positive actions, to make efforts of generosity, honesty and concentration.

Nevertheless, if this is done with ignorance, merit will be badly used and, so to speak, "wasted". Thus, it remains profitless. For this merit to be beneficial, it must be cultivated with wisdom, that is, positive actions should be performed with the intention to take care of and develop the dhamma (for one's own progress and that of others).

Comment: More than positive actions, the more profitable actions are simply abstinences from destructive or worthless actions.

This explains why it is essential to understand clearly the actions that we perform and know how we have to carry them out if we wish them to be really profitable.

The prison story also shows us that wisdom is useless without effort, which is indispensable for the development of wisdom. Thus, only the development of pāramīs does allow us to progress on the path to liberation, at whatever level one may be.

If someone benefits from all the elements which allow him (her) to make of his (her) existence a training in the dhamma (birth as human being, in a favourable environment, in a place and time when the teaching of a Buddha (sāsana) is accessible, understanding the value of such a training, urge to embark in it, lack of serious obstacles such as a poor health, etc.), this means that he (she) has already developed numerous pāramīs in the past. If, besides these conditions, someone devotes himself (herself) with ease to "meditation" (training into satipaṭṭhāna), it means that he (she) has developed even more pāramīs. If a person opts for the life of renunciation by joining, in a most natural way, the monastic community (saṃgha), it means that even more pāramīs have been developed. Finally, when our pāramīs reach complete maturity, we cannot but experience nibbāna, the cessation of all suffering.

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2011, 10:39:15 pm »
When reading you arguments once more after a while, do you see that they mostly seem that there is a lot of attached to comparison ("you", "I", better, worse, equal)?


It was you who applied the terms "better, worse, equal".

As to "I" and "you" that is the effect of applying language in communication

Quote
[Deva:]
He who's an Arahant, his work achieved, Free from taints, in final body clad, That monk still might use such words as "I." Still perchance might say: "They call this mine." ... Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]
Bonds are gone for him without conceits, All delusion's chains are cast aside: Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1] That monk still might use such words as "I," Still perchance might say: "They call this mine." Well aware of common worldly speech, He would speak conforming to such use.[2]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.025.wlsh.html

That is just a quote. I do not claim any "attainments" with this :teehee:

What do you think, should be carry on or give it another tread later? *smile* Or do you think it is good and we have the origin of every answer still in mind.

Why would you carry on? Is there any gain you are expecting?
Let occasions arise and pass away ... just so.

Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 10:41:09 pm by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2011, 11:05:29 pm »
As long as the top of the roof is not reached its a good way to train. *smile* Or like you have quoted:

Quote
You just have to be mindful of sankharas. You catch them when they arise and then you let them go.
Staying on the object, or coming back all the time is necessary to gain right concentration. Staying mindful we could reach the top also on a single occasion. That would be a pretty good use of discussions. But to come to this level we need to gain the requires first.

Quote
It was you who applied the terms "better, worse, equal".
Does a thought of the need for an excuse arise without the comparison "better, worse or equal" am I is he? The question was:
"When reading you arguments once more after a while, do you see that they mostly seem that there is a lot of attached to comparison ("you", "I", better, worse, equal)?"
It was not about a judgment, it was about what do you think if you read them after a while again. How could I read your mind? *smile* Improvement can be made only by one self.

 

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 12:08:54 am »
Quote
It was you who applied the terms "better, worse, equal".

Does a thought of the need for an excuse arise without the comparison "better, worse or equal" am I is he?

Neither is there excuse nor perception of need for excuse. I don't know what you are referring to.
I just showed you that you are chasing your own thoughts.

The question was:
"When reading you arguments once more after a while, do you see that they mostly seem that there is a lot of attached to comparison ("you", "I", better, worse, equal)?"
It was not about a judgment, it was about what do you think if you read them after a while again. How could I read your mind? *smile* Improvement can be made only by one self.

It is mere expression in terms and terminology. What these terms and terminologuies cause in the sphere of "others" aggregates cannot be known and depends on their mindfulness.
But it is not that I do not care at all about the effects in others because that is why I am communicating. So I communicate with you to make you understand but if you do not want to understand then I cannot do anything about it.


Why read it again? Due to attachment to thoughts about thoughts?

The past is gone, it can never be reconstructed. What is important is the knowing just when expression occurs. When expression has occured (is past) knowing in this specific context of expression occuring has occured (is past) but cannot be re-fabricated.

It is about mindfulness resting "in the gap between past and future.

Quote
And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html



Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:31:17 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 12:41:11 am »
Quote
So I communicate with you to make you understand but if you do not want to understand then I cannot do anything about it.
That tought is full of "compassion" as "compassion" often needs the thought of "better, worse or equal" am I. If I think I can teach I need somebody who need to be taught. If I think I need to be taught I need somebody who teaches.
What could be the equal am I thought lead to and vici versa? And how would somebody without any conceit act?

Quote
Why read it again? Due to attachment to thoughts about thoughts?
That is the third way of improving as Buddha taught to Rahula. Before the action, during the action and its longtime effects. So reflecting on the past is a tool given by the Buddha to improve. For sure if we are perfect already we do not need to improve it any more as we are constant in the present. *smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 12:46:00 am »
Quote
So I communicate with you to make you understand but if you do not want to understand then I cannot do anything about it.
That tought is full of "compassion" as "compassion" often needs the thought of "better, worse or equal" am I. If I think I can teach I need somebody who need to be taught. If I think I need to be taught I need somebody who teaches.
What could be the equal am I thought lead to and vici versa? And how would somebody without any conceit act?
What is your intention? To prove that I am not an arhat? :lmfao:


Quote
Why read it again? Due to attachment to thoughts about thoughts?
That is the third way of improving as Buddha taught to Rahula. Before the action, during the action and its longtime effects. So reflecting on the past is a tool given by the Buddha to improve. For sure if we are perfect already we do not need to improve it any more as we are constant in the present. *smile*
[/quote]
And the 4th way of improving the Buddha taught is to abandon the all.
So if thoughts about the past or future arise accompanied by volitional formations just notice that abandonment has failed and continue practicing abandonment as taught by the Buddha.

Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:47:50 am by TMingyur. »

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:54 am »
Quote
"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...

"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...

"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...

"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...

"The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

"He grows disenchanted with the ear...

"He grows disenchanted with the nose...

"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...

"He grows disenchanted with the body...

"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the 1,000 monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html


Kind regards

Offline ground

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2011, 01:00:39 am »
Quote
So I communicate with you to make you understand but if you do not want to understand then I cannot do anything about it.

That tought is full of "compassion" as "compassion" often needs the thought of "better, worse or equal" am I. If I think I can teach I need somebody who need to be taught. If I think I need to be taught I need somebody who teaches.
What could be the equal am I thought lead to and vici versa? And how would somebody without any conceit act?

What is your intention? To prove that I am not an arhat? :lmfao:


Putting aside the joking ... in what is called "present" I had a thought about the past  :wink1: and recalled what I have taught you before and since you do not cultivate thoughts about the past although you want others to cultivate thoughts about the past I would like to remind you:

But do not be discouraged.

All that communication is perfect.

Why?

Through being your teacher you are being mine and vice versa.  :)

This was the teaching given to you here

Of course speaking about "me giving teaching to you" is just motivated by good intentions and any distortion that may occur in your mind due to this should be resolved by the quoted statement itself.


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 01:06:49 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Gaining merits on internet
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2011, 01:03:58 am »
Quote
So I communicate with you to make you understand but if you do not want to understand then I cannot do anything about it.
That tought is full of "compassion" as "compassion" often needs the thought of "better, worse or equal" am I. If I think I can teach I need somebody who need to be taught. If I think I need to be taught I need somebody who teaches.
What could be the equal am I thought lead to and vici versa? And how would somebody without any conceit act?
What is your intention? To prove that I am not an arhat? :lmfao:
Why should I have such an intention and what would be the benefit of it. How do you say often, this are just personal fabrications. *smile* Try it, without bringing your or another person into it, this are just questions.


Quote
Why read it again? Due to attachment to thoughts about thoughts?
That is the third way of improving as Buddha taught to Rahula. Before the action, during the action and its longtime effects. So reflecting on the past is a tool given by the Buddha to improve. For sure if we are perfect already we do not need to improve it any more as we are constant in the present. *smile*
[/quote]
And the 4th way of improving the Buddha taught is to abandon the all.
So if thoughts about the past or future arise just notice that abandonment has failed and continue praticing abandonment as taught by the Buddha.

Kind regards
[/quote]
Yes, but that only helpful and from benefit when we live the holy life already otherwise it can lead to *IDS.

Maybe you remember school time. We learned to calculate from the very roots. In our new times there are serial auxiliary material to bypass lackings, so many children do not really understand the foundations. Even if they are able to do many things with all those auxiliary material, if they face a situation where this surrounding is missing they would suddenly know that they just thought that they understand the roots.
Having understood and improved the roots well, one can go everywhere with ease.

The same is here, sometimes our past merits allow us to make "believed" big jumps but actually we just consume previous gains, others gains.

If people which are used to auxiliary material come together they usually share this stuff to each other, there are less with the effort to teach or to learn the very roots for a secure going on. *smile*

To be reach the sate of genius (real understanding) does not require auxiliary material or high studies or high teachings but putting much effort in the very roots. The higher comes alone and the lower is once real own.

 


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