Author Topic: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines  (Read 4941 times)

Offline landis

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 10:31:48 pm »
Love it!  Thanks Optimus.
Like a rock,
like a planet,
like a f**king atom bomb,
I'll remain unperturbed by the joy and the
madness
that I encounter everywhere I turn
I've seen it all before
in books and magazines
like a twitch before dying
like a pornographic sea
there's a flower behind the window
there's an ugly laughing man
like a hummingbird in silence
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
oh yeah, oh yeah, like the blood on my door
wash me clean and I will run
until I reach the shore
I've known it all along
like the bone under my skin
like actors in a photograph
like paper in the wind
there's a hammer by the window
there's a knife on the floor
like turbines in darkness
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
-Bad Religion, Generator

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2011, 04:25:59 am »
As general guidelines for a community this from the Patimokkha might be useful: Adhikaraṇa-Samatha: Rules for settling disputes

I guess it's originated or connected with the detail explaining in Sàmagàmasutta (MN 104)

In short the six appearances of disputes:

* You do not know this Teaching and Discipline, I know it.
* What do you know of it?
* You have fallen to the wrong method.
* I have fallen to the right method, with reasons.
* You say the first things last, the last things first.
* Your dispute is not thought out, is reversed and made up and should be rebuked. Go! dispute and find your way, if possible.

Attached to a disagreement he/she is
* merciless with hypocrisy
* ...re... jealous and selfish,
* re... crafty and fraudulent,
* ...re... is with evil desires and wrong view,
* ...re. holding fast to worldly matters
* and not giving up easily.

When he/she holds fast to worldly matters and does not give up easily:

he becomes unruly even towards the Teacher,
rebels against the Teaching and becomes unruly
rebels against the Community
becomes unruly
does not live complete in the training.

The four administrations:

* questions of disputes
* questions of censure
* questions of misconduct
* questions of duties

The seven ways to solve a dispute:

* Proceeings done in the presence of the accused
* appealing to the conscience of the accused
* acquittal on grounds of restored sanity
* agreement by a promise
* acquittal by a majority vote of the chapter
* acquital for evil desires
* covering up the whole thing without going to details

A Detail explaining of the seven ways to solve a dispute are to be found in the sutta.

Most important, the six things that promote unity, gladness and friendship, and dispel disputes:

he
* should be established in bodily actions of loving kindness towards co-associates in the holy life openly and secretly.
* should be established in verbal actions of loving kindness towards co-associates in the holy life openly and secretly.
* should be established in mental actions of loving kindness towards co-associates in the holy life openly and secretly.
* shares equally all rightful gains so far as the morsels put in the bowl, with the virtuous co-associates in the holy life.
* becomes equal in all virtues that are not spotted, fissured, free of blemish, and praised by the wise as conducive to concentration, with the co-associates in the holy life.
* shares the noble view that rightfully destroys unpleasantness,of one who logically thinks about it, with the co-associates in the holy life openly and secretly.

I guess there are huge inspirations to be found even in our "new" times and different environment.
*smile*
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:52:17 am by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2011, 10:14:07 pm »
In the Kinti Sutta, the Buddha gives us a guideline on when to speak up if there's a disagreement.

There are 4 variables for us to consider - whether:
- You will be troubled or not (because some people don't speak up because they know it'll be bothersome for them and it will give them trouble - even if it's for the greater good of all involved)
- They will be hurt (because they are prone to anger and resentment) or not
- They are firmly attached to their view or not AND whether you can change this firmly attached view or not

Basically the main criteria is whether you think there's a good chance of whether or not you can help them abandon the unwholesome and establish them in the wholesome - even if it troubles you, even if it hurts them (and causes anger and resentment in them) and even if they are firmly attached to their views.

So you reflect:
- It's a mere trifle that it troubles me or it hurts them and even if they are firmly attached to their views, if I can help them abandon the unwholesome and establish them in the wholesome, then it's worth it because that would be for the greater good.
- If on the other hand, the answer is no to all 4 variables, i.e., that I will be troubled, that they will be hurt, angry and resentful, that they are firmly attached to their view and it's unlikely you'll be able to change them - then it's best to observe equanimity.

Source:  http://www.yellowrobe.com/component/content/article/120-majjhima-nikaya/309-kinti-sutta-what-do-you-think-about-me.html


IMO trying to persuade others is manifestation of one's own attachment to views.
Of course one's own attachment to views can appear in self-persuading disguise ...as alleged noble or altruistic intentions.


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 10:17:52 pm by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2011, 03:32:20 am »
KALAHAVIVÂDASUTTA.

    The origin of contentions, disputes

   1. 'Whence (do spring up) contentions and disputes, lamentation and sorrow together with envy;
and arrogance and conceit together with slander, whence do these spring up? pray, tell me this.' (862)

   2. 'From dear (objects) spring up contentions and disputes, lamentation and sorrow together with envy; arrogance and conceit together with slander; contentions and disputes are joined with envy, and there is slander in the disputes arisen.' (863)

   3. 'The dear (objects) in the world whence do they originate, and (whence) the covetousness that prevails in the world, and desire and fulfilment whence do they originate, which are (of consequence) for the future state of a man[1]?' (864)

   4. 'From wish[2] originate the dear (objects) in the world, and the covetousness that prevails in the world, and desire and fulfilment originate from it, which are (of consequence) for the future state of a man.' (865)

   5. 'From what has wish in the world its origin, and resolutions[3] whence do they spring, anger and falsehood and doubt, and the Dhammas which are made known by the Samana (Gotama)?' (866)

   6. 'What they call pleasure and displeasure in the world, by that wish springs up; having seen decay and origin in (all) bodies[4], a person forms (his) resolutions in the world. (867)

   7. 'Anger and falsehood and doubt, these Dhammas are a couple[5]; let the doubtful learn in the way of knowledge, knowingly the Dhammas have been proclaimed by the Samana.' (868)

   8. 'Pleasure and displeasure, whence have they their origin, for want of what do these not arise? This notion which (thou mentionest), viz. "decay and origin," tell me from what does this arise.' (869)

   9. 'Pleasure and displeasure have their origin from phassa (touch), when there is no touch they do not arise. This notion which (thou mentionest), viz. "decay and origin," this I tell thee has its origin from this.' (870)

   10. 'From what has phassa its origin in the world and from what does grasping spring up? For want of what is there no egotism, by the cessation of what do the touches not touch? ' (871)

   11. 'On account of name and form the touches (exist), grasping has its origin in wish; by the cessation of wishes there is no egotism, by the cessation of form the touches do not touch.' (872)

   12. 'How is one to be constituted that (his) form may cease to exist, and how do joy and pain cease to exist? Tell me this, how it ceases, that we should like to know, such was my mind[1]?' (873)

   13. 'Let one not be with a natural consciousness, nor with a mad consciousness, nor without consciousness, nor with (his) consciousness gone; for him who is thus constituted form ceases to exist, for what is called delusion has its origin in consciousness[2].' (?) (874)

   14. 'What we have asked thee thou hast explained unto us; we will ask thee another question, answer us that: Do not some (who are considered) wise in this world tell us that the principal (thing) is the purification of the yakkha, or do they say something different from this[1]?' (875)

   15. 'Thus some (who are considered) wise in this world say that the principal (thing) is the purification of the yakkha; but some of them say samaya (annihilation), the expert say (that the highest purity lies) in anupâdisesa (none of the five attributes remaining)[2]. (876)

   16. 'And having known these to be dependent, the investigating Muni, having known the things we depend upon, and after knowing them being liberated, does not enter into dispute, the wise (man) does not go to reiterated existence[3].' (877)


from The Sutta-Nipâta - Translated from the Pâli by V. Fausböll

Offline landis

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2011, 11:49:48 pm »
This is the best thread I've ever seen on a Buddhist forum. 
Thank you.
landis
PS: anyone out there ever heard of the book, Mindful Mediation: A Handbook for Buddhist Peacemakers?  NOTICE, that's medIAtion, not medITation.
Like a rock,
like a planet,
like a f**king atom bomb,
I'll remain unperturbed by the joy and the
madness
that I encounter everywhere I turn
I've seen it all before
in books and magazines
like a twitch before dying
like a pornographic sea
there's a flower behind the window
there's an ugly laughing man
like a hummingbird in silence
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
oh yeah, oh yeah, like the blood on my door
wash me clean and I will run
until I reach the shore
I've known it all along
like the bone under my skin
like actors in a photograph
like paper in the wind
there's a hammer by the window
there's a knife on the floor
like turbines in darkness
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
-Bad Religion, Generator

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 12:30:01 am »
Mediation is about 7-8 years very popular in parts of Europe as conventional dispute solving (on laws) has less and less satisfactions results. Private disputes are mostly solved over the way of mediation today. Actually its 100% the Buddhist way. Is good to see that this ways get even more interest among Buddhists also. *smile*
A mediator need to be a meditator as a meditator will always be a good mediator. We have to develop peace in our self first.

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 12:52:56 am »
There are two books of a special peacemaker:

Step by Step by Maha Ghosananda

and his story by Bhikkhu Santidhammo

The Buddha of the battlefield

The simple words do not only give an inspiration out of his person, but are a simply tool for everyone to follow and become a peacemaker step by step. *smile*

I thought you might be interested.

Offline landis

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2011, 12:10:52 am »
Thanks again Hanzze.
I've a masters degree in conflict resolution.  The book I asked about was a text book the instructor used for our advanced mediation training, and was also my introduction to the paticasamupadda.
landis
Like a rock,
like a planet,
like a f**king atom bomb,
I'll remain unperturbed by the joy and the
madness
that I encounter everywhere I turn
I've seen it all before
in books and magazines
like a twitch before dying
like a pornographic sea
there's a flower behind the window
there's an ugly laughing man
like a hummingbird in silence
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
oh yeah, oh yeah, like the blood on my door
wash me clean and I will run
until I reach the shore
I've known it all along
like the bone under my skin
like actors in a photograph
like paper in the wind
there's a hammer by the window
there's a knife on the floor
like turbines in darkness
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
-Bad Religion, Generator

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 12:56:40 am »
*smile* That sounds incredible. How does a masters degree in conflict resolution work on field? It would be great if you could introduce it more and but it into relation to the simply eightfold path.

Yesterday I was hardly searching for a sutta I come across in overfly some times ago. It was about how to solve an dispute of two people. Disagreements can be out of different views (contently) or out of different interpretations (terminology). In an "heedless" discussion sometimes we do not recognize that we often agree with the dispute partner on one or the other aspect, but are just attached to our disagreement. In this sutta there was a great explaining how and whom to approach in such a discussion and how to turn it in to right direction whit the right words.

Maybe somebody remember it. *smile* Its a great peacemaker sutta.

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 04:39:25 am »
Thanks turning a round  :wacky: and finding some amount of mindfulness again, I found it here in a link again  :smack: *smile* and I was wondering why the googlyana did not work in this case. Ohh this grasping when actually already given...

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2011, 05:33:09 am »
My experience has been that the underlying reason for disagreement is important for each individual, who enters into it, to discern for themselves.  Unfortunately, those who enter into to disagreements sometimes don't care, because they have crossed the lines of reason, etiquette, common courtesy, harmonious speech, and have abandoned harmonious view for the sake of winning the debate.

Compounding these aforementioned difficulties some traditions encourage debate, and "official" disagreements with the hope that it will improve one's knowledge of The Dhamma.  This is sometimes beneficial until one seeks "winning" and/or the resulting status of winning more than deeper penetration of the dhamma.

When one refuses to review and consider honestly the arguments of others, but only looks for weaknesses upon which to capitalize, then it is clear what one's intentions are for entering into the debate, and imho should abandon it, upon consideration that it may be an attachment that can only lead to disharmony and suffering for all involved.

In any event, thanks for this thread, and for all those who have provided input.  I found it very beneficial and intend to use it as a frequent reference.  If it isn't already pinned, my recommendation would be that it should be.

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2011, 09:14:41 am »

Offline landis

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 06:58:33 pm »
How does a masters degree in conflict resolution work on field?
I don't understand. <3
Like a rock,
like a planet,
like a f**king atom bomb,
I'll remain unperturbed by the joy and the
madness
that I encounter everywhere I turn
I've seen it all before
in books and magazines
like a twitch before dying
like a pornographic sea
there's a flower behind the window
there's an ugly laughing man
like a hummingbird in silence
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
oh yeah, oh yeah, like the blood on my door
wash me clean and I will run
until I reach the shore
I've known it all along
like the bone under my skin
like actors in a photograph
like paper in the wind
there's a hammer by the window
there's a knife on the floor
like turbines in darkness
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
-Bad Religion, Generator

Offline Hanzze

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 07:18:39 pm »
How is the implementation in practice, in exercise? A master degree is a worldly header and I guess given by proving intellectual attainments.
A master degree in conflict resolution compared according the Buddha Dharma would be liberation and the highest fruition, which for sure enable to best success.

What are the limits or the problems of an ordinary master degree, would should not mean that it is not possible to do it hand in hand. *smile*

Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: How to approach disagreements - the Buddha's guidelines
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 07:37:20 pm »
Landis,

There is one more Sutta that is very useful for conflict resolution - the Abhaya Sutta.

Here, someone comes to stir the Buddha up, trying to defeat him in a debate but ends up losing.  The question that he posed to the Buddha was, "Does the Buddha speak things which are disagreeable to hear?"  If the Buddha replied Yes or No - the guy already had an answer upon which to pin the Buddha with.

But the Buddha replied that there was not a simple, categorical Yes or No to that question.  The Buddha continued that there were several factors to consider as to what would be worth saying:

1.  Whether what is said is true and are the details correct.
2.  Whether what is said is beneficial or not.
3.  Whether what is said is pleasing or displeasing to hear.

And the Buddha goes through the various permutations and combinations of these 3 things to show when you should say something and when not to.

The basic points are that the Buddha will say only things which are true and beneficial.  And if something needs to be said that is displeasing for someone to hear, then the Buddha will know the proper time and place for saying those things (time and place is also important when saying true and beneficial things).

 


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