Author Topic: Illusory peace  (Read 4495 times)

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 04:57:19 pm »
Lot of emos, good to observe.

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress.

...Lonaphala Sutta: The Salt Crystal


*smile*

The consequences of wrong view...

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."

— AN 10.103

« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:23:21 pm by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 07:57:56 pm »
I fully agree with you, holy man :wink1:

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 09:14:51 pm »
Wouldn't there be the twinkle and the hole man you would have made may day *smile* Thanks Buddha, we have real better resources that the branch grasping of a monkey.

What should I say, just another illusory peace. *smile* Like always thanks for the communication.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 09:23:30 pm by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 09:31:33 pm »
Wouldn't there be the twinkle and the hole man you would have made may day *smile*

C'mon ... I know you as the one and only relentless preacher of the true Hanzze-dharma who appeares in all buddhist internet forums I came across so far.

If holiness isn't the cause for your agenda then what other cause may it be? :wink1:



It is not that your Hanzze-dharma is not part of the Buddha dharma. No it is part of it ...  but it is a sample/selection of it.

I do not critizise your views because they are right views (with effluents).
But what I do critizise is that you are unable to accept the right view of others if it does not match the your preferred sample/selection of right view.


Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 09:48:57 pm »
Could I change them? *smile*

And I didn't know that there are different right views.

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 10:40:29 pm »
Could I change them? *smile*

No but you could change your perspective of "I" and "mine" in terms of dharma.


And I didn't know that there are different right views.


As I said already above there are many right views with effluents and only one right view without effluents.

You are not a friend of sutta study ...

As to right views with effluents just read the Sammaditthi Sutta where it reads e.g.
Quote
...
In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."


and different "ways" of right view with effluents are actually different views regarding terms and terminologies, are dependent on terms and terminologies, are dependent on volition and consciousness, are dependent on vedana and perception as "this is this" or "this is not that".


Or you read MN 117
Quote
"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html


Quote
"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.



Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 10:47:30 pm by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 11:21:26 pm »
Quote
No but you could change your perspective of "I" and "mine" in terms of dharma.

*smile* well than I would not have anything to criticize, isn't it. Who criticizes?

Let me try to make a bridge to the OP again. Sometimes it is not rice that makes illusory peace, there is also the possibility to give food to the biggest mouth. Sometimes we can reach illusory peace also with philosophy and sutta studies. There is plenty food of it. *smile*

Lets look how it happens to come to illusory peace, illusory right view.

"In a person of illusory right view, illusory resolve comes into being. In a person of illusory resolve, illusory speech. In a person of illusory speech, illusory action. In a person of illusory action, illusory livelihood. In a person of illusory livelihood, illusory effort. In a person of illusory effort, illusory mindfulness. In a person of illusory mindfulness, illusory concentration. In a person of illusory concentration, illusory knowledge. In a person of illusory knowledge, illusory release.

"This is how from illusory comes failure, not success."


So actually nobody could change this except one self. Even with much intellectual knowledge it can happen that we can not develop the whole path.
It seems like all ants are following each other, there traditional livelihood, they way they used to live. But even there we can see some leaving the track, walking alone, taking the "risk".

What ever food comes along, it could easily lead us to illusory peace. *smile* Transcendence is something we would not need to speak of if it is already reached. But thinking of it its could give more effort in following the path. By thinking alone speech, action and livelihood do not change. But maybe its still the wrong thinking. So what should/could be changed?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:47:01 pm by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 11:56:57 pm »
Let me make one thing clear: I do not believe that there is something that can be validly called "illusion".

Why?

Because the affirmative thought "illusion" presupposes that there is something that can be validly regarded as "non-illusion".

Therefore be informed that I am applying the term "illusion" here simply because you offered it as a means of communication. But my applying this term does not mean affirmation.
 

Okay then ...

Let me try to make a bridge to the OP again.
Actually I felt I was re-approaching the topic with my last post.

Why?


Because of this:
What ever food comes along, it could easily lead us to illusory peace. *smile*
And this is the case with attachment to right view with effluents. Attachment to right view with effluents may lead to "illusory peace" but it will never lead to liberation.


By thinking alone speech, action and livelihood do not change. But maybe its still the wrong thinking. So what should/could be changed?
Nothing. Please investigate carefully into the meaning of "nothing should/could be changed".


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:59:47 pm by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 12:29:36 am »
Can you see the circle? *smile* Some less of the ants just changed there livelihood out of this occasion. Most of them have not been aware at all. Many re-developed illusory thought even they had some moments of mindfulness to walk on as usually.

Some less ants will find the possibility to develop some degrees of real transcendent view. Why is that so, because they did not change there views to there habits, but had changed there habits to some degrees of right view. Even you can not look into there minds, you can see the different in their new way of live. *smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 12:54:57 am »
Can you see the circle? *smile*
There is none. It may appear as a circle to you because of being caught up in language.

Some less of the ants just changed there livelihood out of this occasion.
There is no livelihood change can be acted upon although language has "livelihood".


Why is that so, because they did not change there views to there habits, but had changed there habits to some degrees of right view. Even you can not look into there minds, you can see the different in their new way of live. *smile*
There are no beings that change anything. There are clusters of experience being impressed by experiencing. And even my saying "there are no" (in the negative) and "there are" (in the affirmative) is just linguistic expression being the manifestation of experience. Not more and not less.

Where do the volitional formations directed to "change" arise from? From ignorance. Ignorance and  volitional formations entail consciousness, consciousness entails name-and-form, etc the whole mass of suffering and lamentation


Kind regards
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 12:57:47 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2011, 01:08:24 am »
Well this realization is sometimes very useful, sometimes does it pull the rug out from every near future development. But nothing to worry the the tree pulls itself down. Even some develop very strong branches, wind and weather will come. *smile* So long, it still grows and produces seeds.
One could mean that being a strong old tree is a peaceful life not seeing where it was going through and will go through again and again.

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2011, 01:16:32 am »
Well this realization is sometimes very useful, sometimes does it pull the rug out from every near future development.

Attachment to thoughts of "future" and "gain" - the latter often being verbally disguised as "development" - forming and re-inforcing intentions and activities (habits) is what ...
... grows and produces seeds

and ensures that "it" ...
... will go through again and again

 :)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 01:18:42 am by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2011, 01:19:04 am »
*smile* Maybe we can write an additional "Sutta induced delusion syndrome SIDS" - article. Your English is very well, don't you like to give it a try?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 01:25:56 am by Hanzze »

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2011, 01:38:41 am »
Quote
Whatever pleasantness and pleasure arises on account of the mind is its satisfaction. The mind is impermanent, unpleasant and subject to change, is the danger of the mind. Taming interest and greed for the mind and dispelling interest and greed for the mind is the escape from the mind.

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta4/34-Salayatana-Samyutta/02-Yamakavaggo-e.html


Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2011, 02:09:57 am »
What about the defuse/indifferent? Actually that is the red line in this tread. *smile*
Therefor aware of the danger of SIDS Buddha gave a couple of advices how, to whom and in which kind to recite suttas. One important point was, not to split parts out of it.

It was not proposed to tam the effort on develop virtue and right livelihood till its perfection step by step. Maybe that sutta was directed to people having a good amount of perfection developed already in it.

The problem of the ants is that there are to much defuse/indifferent mind states, so they could be leaded just to an illusory peace. *smile* Even easier bearable, seeding and fruition goes on and grows.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:15:10 am by Hanzze »

 


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