Author Topic: Illusory peace  (Read 4586 times)

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2011, 10:34:06 pm »
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Therefore you may project onto what I am saying whatever you like. I don't care and I don't blame you for that.
Why?
1. Because I accept your condition.
2. I do not say that your way is wrong or that you are misrepresenting the teaching as it is.
There is no need for apologies and excuses
Was not meant as an excuse but as friendly gesture, showing that I understand you as you are.


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I just spoke about what I would like to refer to as "the higher teachings" of the Buddha
I am aware of what you are talking about and there is nothing to disagree, but there is no higher teaching if the base for it is not there, ...
This "base" is just an idea, a fabrication.
You do not have to show me that there is a lot of sophistry available to persuade others of being deer, sheep and goats. I know all these words. And I know that it is easy to lead others to the path of deer, sheep and goats.
I also know that it easy to be led on the path of the Buddha's higher teachings since it seems to be a short cut which appeals to the lazy.

The main difference between your view and mine seems to be that I rely on the wisdom of others whereas you may think that others are just fools.

Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2011, 10:34:47 pm »
Just noticed that it may appear that there is a contradiction of statemenmts:

1.
You are conditioned by tradition, Hanzze. Traditional delusional thinking pervades you.

2.
2. I do not say that your way is wrong or that you are misrepresenting the teaching as it is.

As far as the traditions do not add extra concepts/teachings to the words of the Buddha or modify the Buddha's words the "traditional delusional thinking" (see 1.) was meant to be the assumption (or "tenet") that all have to be treated like "deer, sheep and goats" and that there is no alternative to the way of "deer, sheep and goats". So they are teaching their followers permanently some sort of "You are like 'deer, sheep and goats' therefore you have to do {this and that}"

Kind regards
There is no contradiction in your statements, in your view. I think I understand them very well. *smile*

This is a very general view today and it's rooted in less respect of elders and tradition. The revolution thought at the back of one's mind. Engrained in "modern" society since we are young: "You can! You can!" Special the focus on individuality. Its not easy to break throw this delusion to devotion again. But its possible, in the moment you realize that the delusion of independence is pure fake and you know that it needs the whole universe to support so also equal in return.

Abstaining from taking what is not freely given, will cut this delusion away. Honest we always find the right way. The rest might be waste of merits to maintain a bubble till its end. *smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2011, 10:36:49 pm »
There is no contradiction in your statements, in your view. I think I understand them very well. *smile*

This is a very general view today and it's rooted in less respect of elders and tradition. The revolution thought at the back of one's mind. Engrained in "modern" society since we are young: "You can! You can!" Special the focus on individuality. Its not easy to break throw this delusion to devotion again. But its possible, in the moment you realize that the delusion of independence is pure fake and you know that it needs the whole universe to support so also equal in return.

Abstaining from taking what is not freely given, will cut this delusion away. Honest we always find the right way. The rest might be waste of merits to maintain a bubble till its end. *smile*

Sophistry and fabrications.

Kind regards

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2011, 11:04:50 pm »
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The main difference between your view and mine seems to be that I rely on the wisdom of others whereas you may think that others are just fools.


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I just rely on the Buddha and nothing or nobody else.


Actually there are always contradiction in personal views. Insight is always only ones own. There is no way to share, the precious advice to attain it is the eightfold path and it makes even clear what the idea of special beggars and vinaya is all about and why this advice even cloudy still exists. Its nothing but a save way guide through the jungle and even not reached in this very existence, we would not lose the path. *smile* Tradition is not what we like to reach, its our vehicle and maybe still some are carry rightly on.

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The Way to the Monastery

Virtue, concentration, and discernment: These three things the Buddha called a path. The path isn't the religion, and it's not what the Buddha really wanted, but they're the way we get there.

It's the same as your coming from Bangkok to Wat Nong Pah Pong. You didn't want the road coming here. You wanted to reach the monastery instead. But the road was needed for you to get here. The road coming here isn't the monastery. It's just the road to the monastery. You have to follow the road to get to the monastery.

Virtue, concentration, and discernment are the road to peace, which is what we really want.


Times will come, when there is no more road, as less and less will walk on it and the jungle wins it back. *smile*

Maybe this story is useful (in context with the Vinaya road):

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In the village of Macala, there lived a man Magha by name, who was native of the country of Magadha. One day there was an open air assembly of the villagers, who turned up to formulate their plan with regards to the general outlay of the village. Magha was in the crowd and as it was his habit, he prepared a clean spot where he stood and listened to the village headman who was addressing his fellowmen on matters concerning the welfare of the village. A man came and pushed Magha aside and stood on the clearance of his ground. Magha did not refute nor appeared annoyed, but moved quietly to another place and having made it clean, he stood there. Another man again took up his position and he moved ungrudgingly to the next vacant spot which he swept clean. Again and again, he was made to go from one stand to another. He was heedful of not causing annoyance to people around him, for he realised that any man wanted to choose a clean place for himself.
On the following day, Magha set out from his home and prepared and cleaned a big area of land to serve the purpose of a playing field. He raked out the weeds and whatever rubbish that was scattered on the land. When the work was completed, he kept himself busy in attending to road repairs, which was in a bad state due to heavy usage. He remetalled the damaged portion and leveled up the holes and cracks. A man who happened to pass, enquired of him about his work and he told him that he was in the course of making a safe road to lead him to heaven. The man on learning of his good work, joined him. More men appeared on the scene and they all joined in to assist Magha in the hope of sharing the same merits with him. In all his fellowworkers numbered thirty-two and they toiled diligently with him.
An overseer of the king who looked after the maintenance of the roads and highways, observed with curiosity this gang of workers happily engaged in making a road-way with their free labour. It came to his mind that if would be more practical for them to employ their time to the brewing of intoxicants, which was of course illegal and thereby he could earn a portion for himself by way of bribery once he tipped them off. But Magha could not be pursuaded to fall in with his project though the overseer argued at great length, the uselessness of his work which could be more profitably employed in brewing intoxicants or wild game hunting. This infuriated the overseer and he conceived on a plan to revenge himself on Magha and his fellow workers.
The overseer was not slow in communicating to the king that a gang of robbers were operating on the highways. He named Magha and his men as the robbers and they were caught and brought before the king. The misguided king, eager to mete out punishment to the unfortunate men did not make any enquiry as to their guilt. Whereupon the prisoners were made to lie on the ground and the king’s elephants were immediately released and led to trample on their prostrate bodies. Magha seeing that their death was imminent addressed all this men, “There is left only one course for us and that is to protect our purity of action. May we at this hour extend our loving kindness to the king, his officials, and to the elephants. Let no hatred spring from our hearts; instead, let them be filled with thoughts of love for our fellowmen like the same love that feel for ourselves.”
Somehow the elephants when released in their direction stopped abruptly on approaching the prostrate figures. The king though that his elephants were afraid on being confronted by so many men lying on the ground, so he instructed his men to cover the prisoners with mats, and to lead the elephants to trample on them. But again the elephants refused to do so. The king, noticing the unusual behavior of his elephants, ordered his prisoners to stand before him. The king said, “You men, being daring highway robbers, and caught in your den, what would you all expect me to do as my last resort for your punishment.”
Magha stood forward and bowed in deep respect before the king. He then said, “O! King, it is interesting to know why we were branded as robbers from the highways. We are only peaceful villagers laboring for our own interest to make a road to lead us to heaven. Your overseer, tough not interested in our project, is the principal witness of our activity before you arrest.” The king hearing this said, “I, who am your king and a human being as well do not know your virtue, whereas my elephants although dumb animals themselves, know your true virtue. I now ask your forgiveness.” The king, in order to punish the wicked overseer ordered that the overseer and his family were to work as personal attendants to Magha and have him and his men their village free from taxation and their freedom to live from the king’s rule and also allowed the elephants to work for them.


Today there are many, just taking devoted care of the road. *smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2011, 11:17:41 pm »
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The main difference between your view and mine seems to be that I rely on the wisdom of others whereas you may think that others are just fools.

Quote
I just rely on the Buddha and nothing or nobody else.

Actually there are always contradiction in personal views.
There is no contradiction here since I rely that others are able to see the truth of the Buddha's teachings as I am able to see it. And even if the seeing is a bit obscured and the outlook a bit foggy initially there is already a glimpse which is becoming clearer and clearer the longer you keep focus and avoid being distracted, i.e. patiently and steadfastly resist being led on the path of deer, sheep and goats, resist the suggestions of Mara.


Kind regards

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 11:25:09 pm by TMingyur. »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2011, 12:30:06 am »
Avoiding the way the Buddha had advised still means not seeing his teachings in whole. Seeing the path of the goat as the path of the lion and the path of the lion as the path of the goat, still remains.

Not avoiding the way the Buddha had advised and patiently work on the basement to walk it one day is seeing the teaching as a whole. Seeing the path of the goat as the path of the goat and the path of the lion as the path of the lion, even the path of the lion is not yet attained.

I guess that its very possible that one sees the way of the lion like the way of a wild goat. As a domesticated goat, the life as a wild goat is for sure often the intention to leave on house to join another. But that is still not the lions way. How ever, the lion will always live among goats and deers. Its not the surrounding that makes him be a goat himself. Even goats do not realize that lions are walking there way, joining the caravan through the dry season when water bounds are very rare.

Tradition (in this case the Vinaya) has its cause, it protects at the beginning, in the middle and at the end. Arrived it would be nothing but naturally.

Saddha *smile* and regarding the others its like

Quote
The Millipede

When lots of us come to live together, it's easy to practice if our views are correct and in line with one another. When we're willing to bend and abandon our pride in the same way, we all come together at the level of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. You can't say that having a lot of monks interferes with your practice. It's kind of like a millipede. A millipede has lots of legs. When you look at it, you think that it's sure to get all confused with so many legs. But it walks. It walks back and forth, and there's really no confusion. It has its rhythm, its order.

It's the same with the Buddha's teachings: If you practice like a disciple of the Buddha, it's easy. In other words, you practice rightly, practice straightforwardly, practice to gain release from suffering, and practice correctly. Even if there are hundreds of us, thousands of us, however many of us, it doesn't matter. We can all fall into the same current.


*smile*

Offline ground

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2011, 12:57:25 am »
It's been a refreshing communication. Thanks. :)

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2011, 01:15:19 am »
Thanks also for the communication. And special for being patient and leaded by firm good will regarding all others all of your time. *smile*

And thanks for the provider of this forum for sharing space and patient for so many word!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 01:39:56 am by Hanzze »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2011, 05:04:12 am »
Avoiding the way the Buddha had advised still means not seeing his teachings in whole. Seeing the path of the goat as the path of the lion and the path of the lion as the path of the goat, still remains.......


Saddha *smile* and regarding the others its like

Quote
The Millipede

When lots of us come to live together, it's easy to practice if our views are correct and in line with one another. When we're willing to bend and abandon our pride in the same way, we all come together at the level of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. You can't say that having a lot of monks interferes with your practice. It's kind of like a millipede. A millipede has lots of legs. When you look at it, you think that it's sure to get all confused with so many legs. But it walks. It walks back and forth, and there's really no confusion. It has its rhythm, its order.

It's the same with the Buddha's teachings: If you practice like a disciple of the Buddha, it's easy. In other words, you practice rightly, practice straightforwardly, practice to gain release from suffering, and practice correctly. Even if there are hundreds of us, thousands of us, however many of us, it doesn't matter. We can all fall into the same current.


*smile*


Hi, Hanze.  Thanks for this.

Could you provide a link for "The Millipede", please.

Thanks,

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline dhammaseeker51

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2011, 05:37:32 am »
Most interesting thread!

with Metta

:anjali:

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Illusory peace
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2011, 08:27:17 am »
Avoiding the way the Buddha had advised still means not seeing his teachings in whole. Seeing the path of the goat as the path of the lion and the path of the lion as the path of the goat, still remains.......


Saddha *smile* and regarding the others its like

Quote
The Millipede

When lots of us come to live together, it's easy to practice if our views are correct and in line with one another. When we're willing to bend and abandon our pride in the same way, we all come together at the level of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. You can't say that having a lot of monks interferes with your practice. It's kind of like a millipede. A millipede has lots of legs. When you look at it, you think that it's sure to get all confused with so many legs. But it walks. It walks back and forth, and there's really no confusion. It has its rhythm, its order.

It's the same with the Buddha's teachings: If you practice like a disciple of the Buddha, it's easy. In other words, you practice rightly, practice straightforwardly, practice to gain release from suffering, and practice correctly. Even if there are hundreds of us, thousands of us, however many of us, it doesn't matter. We can all fall into the same current.


*smile*


Hi, Hanze.  Thanks for this.

Could you provide a link for "The Millipede", please.

Thanks,

_/\_Ron

Its in the heading of the quote, sorry not very evident. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms.html

*smile*

 


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