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Introductions / Re: Returning to the cushions
« Last post by Anemephistus on Today at 08:24:23 pm »
I wish you the very best!
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:r4wheel:
Say you were well versed in martial arts before you became a Buddhist and someone was attacking your wife with intent to rape her and she has neither buddhist training or martial art training..

Should you just sit there and let your wife be raped?

By the time you call the police and they show up.. she could already be raped..

I know this is a bit of devils advocate..

But i dont think its as absolute as the buddha taught..

I would like to warn anyone who might be made upset by a rather graphic mental depiction of a situation as it evolves stress-fully and violently and includes sexual assault as a parameter to skip this please, and please, others, if you post any piece of this, please I request you post it entirely including this sentence.

I suggested calling the police as a measure to help with liability.

Let's keep the details of your thought experiment, and extend it onward using the wonderful teaching that Elder Ron shared.  To be clear, I actually deal with rapists and murderers and child molesters, feel free to look at my other posts, so I want you to know that I am speaking with only a small model of hypothesis in this. I have arrived on scenes and witnessed horrible things, which I will not be sharing but which give rise to the limited insight I wish to share for what value it may have.  You have chosen a person close to us for this thought in order to increase the magnitude of the stress in the situation, I will address this a little later because there is a certain inherent trait about that which I think might be of interest. Lastly...This comes from experience with violence on my part, as a last and final note, the mental image is ugly and unlovely if you sensitive to such things there is no shame in that at all please, skip this.

So we become aware of this situation: 

Lets give ourselves, the person who's wife is about to be raped, good fighting ability. We see what is happening.
Unless we are at one with our surroundings, we will be moving before we completed our first O.O.D.A loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) we will move in the process of orienting because that's what humans do, especially with training.

Now since the example has made it clear that we know our wife is about to be raped, there is a posture to the situation as we become aware of it, our senses take in information about this scenario and we begin to build a plan, mind you this will take less than a second, with training, far less. We have observed what is happening, we have oriented to the surroundings, now we must decide. This is where the Buddha has spoken in what Elder Ron has shared. We are already in motion. Since it is unlikely that the person is attempting this directly next to us lets give ourselves ten feet to contact, about one second.

Depending on the scenario, what happens in our mind, how resistant our wife is, how aggressive the attacker is and how surprised he is to see us and how surprised we are,  the situation may take on a variety of endless traits.  We could evaluate this forever in a hypothesis, and it would be an ugly evaluation which I would not want to participate in so I will hedge it in a little and we will have the choice of our action since our skill is high and the discussion is about the skills which will give us the ability to make these choices anyway. 

So we get to decide, lets look at two of the ways we could make our decision.

Without the influence of the teaching as a reflex:

We see a person who is trying to take something from someone we love, we feel fear, rage and hate, we love our wife, we want her to be safe. This less than human thing is now attacking her trying to insert himself into her and defile her, and our rage grips us, we give no warning and run at the aggressor blind with fury and we kick him, he is bent down and the swing is full force to his face, exactly where we wanted to place it. We are glad it landed where we wanted it too, it's good, because that will hurt him badly. We are no longer thinking, we can no longer think, our anger is all we are and we look at him and we see our wife crying, screaming, he looks up at us and yells an obscenity and now we stomp on his face several times to make certain he can never do this again because we hate him and he has gone so far that we know he deserves this. We call the police, perhaps we go to prison, perhaps we do not, it will depend on where we live but we will live with what happened either way. In my opinion if we cannot see ourselves in this position from hate then I am not certain we have ever really felt it.

With the teaching as a reflex:
 
We see a person who is trying to harm our loved one and we run at them with the desire to make them stop. Our mind is racing, We scream "STOP!" (perhaps this will make him run, it often does and we are done) he does not stop and we see that this persons face is open to an attack but so are his ribs, his face might kill him and out of pity for his life we strike him in the ribs and break them. He falls and we pull our wife away. We hold her and we call the police, the attacker is gasping for air and trying to move we tell him to stay down and get away, we may place several more blows to him if he attempts to move in our direction at all yelling at him to stay away, each careful and aimed in a way that he will recover so that he does not die and cannot hurt anyone. We wait for law enforcement to arrive, if he runs, we are still safe and we know this, eventually he can no longer fight. He goes to trial and gets judged and he goes to prison. We will not sleep okay for awhile, but we can live with what has happened.

I mentioned that I might say something about using a person close as an example. There is a limited spectrum of emotions, all of us by the time we get to a certain point have felt them I think. We might think they will be stronger for this person or that person, but honestly, once we hit "hate" or "love" we are pretty much maxed out. Full hatred in action, I've seen it, murderous rage, over cake...one piece of prison cake...the same rage that we would feel when our wife is being raped and we kill the person doing it...it's all just hate. We judge it's validity but as I understand it, the teaching which the Buddha gave left no room for having hate, only removing it. Using love like that which we have for our spouse, to fuel concepts about what might bring us closer to hate because of threats to what we love seems exactly the opposite of what should be done, but I wanted to fully explain he main point before I offered this for contemplation as a side note.
 
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The Dharma Express / Re: The Ultimate Truth of Amida Buddha
« Last post by Dharma Flower on Today at 07:56:15 pm »
While Zen is more well-known in the West, Jodo Shinshu is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan. This sect was founded by Shinran Shonin, the most well-loved religious figure in Japanese history, who left the monastic life to marry and have children.

Unlike other Buddhist sects, Jodo Shinshu doesn’t require abstinence from meat and alcohol. Ascetic practices are unnecessary (optional) if we are already Amida Buddha in our true nature. Reciting the Nembutsu is a way of acknowledging and awakening to our innately enlightened true self.

It's not discouraged in Jodo Shinshu to be vegetarian or abstain from alcohol. It's just that Jodo Shinshu was one of the first Buddhist sects to accept people who had to kill meat to earn a living, like hunters and fishermen.

Another thing is that many people aren't able to follow the traditional prohibition of intoxicants because they're chronically addicted, no matter how many times they try to stop. Jodo Shinshu gave these people a path to enlightenment as well.

Can you tell us, specifically and by name, which sects prohibit meat and alchohol.  It might be helpfull for newcomers to know what these sects are so if they have issues with such probibitions they can avoid contact or commitment with such groups.

Perhaps Taiwanese, Chinese and Vietnamese Pure Land Buddhism? Then again, it's only optional that lay people observe the five precepts in these traditions, though strongly encouraged.

Perhaps?  Really?  You made a raqther positive statement that there were Buddhist sects that actively prohibit meat and alcohol.  To say "perhaps" is a direct contradiction to that.  Then you say it's optional.  Seems like you're coming up short on facts and such.

Y'know, if you're going to activly promote Jodo Shinshu by pointing to specific shortcomings in certain, unnamed sects, you should be prepared to name them specifically, when asked for clarification.

Since I am vegetarian, I don't consider teaching vegetarianism a shortcoming. Please read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Chinese,_Korean,_Vietnamese,_and_Taiwanese_traditions
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Anemephistus
« on: Today at 04:15:53 pm »
Quote
"I thought on this for awhile".......

No doubt:  Great wisdom from great pain. :dharma:

You honor me sir  :namaste:
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Fitness and Martial Arts / Re: Diet
« Last post by BlackLooter on Today at 05:26:40 pm »
I fulfil all my urges and I feel great.. i have positive chi flow etc..

Maybe its the way you look at the food.. if you see it as a negative then you might have bad karma attached to eating those specific things..
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 :r4wheel:
Say you were well versed in martial arts before you became a Buddhist and someone was attacking your wife with intent to rape her and she has neither buddhist training or martial art training..

Should you just sit there and let your wife be raped?

By the time you call the police and they show up.. she could already be raped..

I know this is a bit of devils advocate..

But i dont think its as absolute as the buddha taught..
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Anemephistus
« on: Today at 04:15:53 pm »
Quote
"I thought on this for awhile".......

No doubt:  Great wisdom from great pain. :dharma:

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Fitness and Martial Arts / Re: Diet
« Last post by Anemephistus on Today at 04:17:22 pm »
I am on the obligatory coffee and doughnuts diet of my people.  :cheesy:
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I thought on this for awhile when last you shared it. I really appreciate that by the way. It helped a lot and was very relevant!

 I am not very wise and the Dharma is very wise, but it seems to me like It speaks of not harboring Ill will,  and instructs us to keep our minds full of kindness and pity for those who wish to do us harm and who are unkind to us.   We should love them and have great wishes for their well being. We should not ever let their ill will and evil make us think that they deserve less than loving kindness.

I have not attained this to the fullest, or even a majority extent but as one who uses force more regularly as a tool than others might, I think it is completely true.

Forgive the distinction, but I feel like wishing to harm someone is not the same as being able to stop them from causing harm to themselves or others. We say "self" defence but what about the defense of others, of those who wish to do harm to themselves?

Martial arts can give a person a weapon or a tool. If the world were a place where people did not try and slice themselves to death, we might not need a shotgun sock round to knock them over in order to save them and to reduce the risk of them either dying or killing. The important thing is the mindset of the person who is holding the tool. Do they have a desire to save the people involved, are they trying to preserve life and do they feel love for others...have they tried everything they can to avoid using any physical  force to control the situation and when they did was it motivated by a feeling of concern for everyone involved? 

There are those who are eager to use force and to cause hurt. In my experience we think that if we fight better we will be ready to fight them and then we will prevail in some way. This is not a correct way to do this in my opinion.  If we learn how to save others and we care about people and we act out of a concern for others and try to help them and understand the need for actions under the right circumstances which do not involve anger or hatred then maybe this is more proper. If you live in the United States, call the police and carefully exit the situation.

I have never used force out of anger, I have been frustrated by the need to do it, but not at the person who is subject to it, they are mostly a subject of pity for me...and of contemplation and and understanding, some of the men I work with are not as good at this though and that is difficult.

So I guess I would say that it is a matter of intentions to the OP. Will you lose your loving kindness, your pity and your concern, will others anger and hate drive you to create reasons for "defense" or is your understanding such that when faced with the evil hatred of the world your intentions can maintain the proper integrity of a Buddhist despite the outward look of violence, will your actions save the subject of the force as well as the person they threaten? Be careful there can be repercussions for actions in life that are not desirable for getting involved without authority.

I hope you live in a way where such a thing will never matter to you, if such a thing becomes a concern, keep your mind calm, look and speak if there is time, use your understanding of the teaching and try to bring peace with every fiber of your being and engage your heart fully. If that fails do your best to keep your actions in control and motivated out of the desire to genuinly help.

Personally.... Talk.... And call the police... And try to exit the situation.






 
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I wonder what Buddha meant when he taught this?

You don't know?
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