Author Topic: Action  (Read 1347 times)

Offline humanitas

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Action
« on: April 02, 2010, 04:33:38 pm »
Patrul Rinpoche discusses the ten negative actions to avoid and how they become karma (I think it's on page 115 or thereabouts in Words of my Perfect Teacher),  the Sutra of a Hundred Actions is mentioned:

The joys and sorrows of beings
All come from their actions, said the Buddha.
The diversity of actions
Creates the diversity of beings
And impels their diverse wanderings
Vast indeed is this net of actions!
[..]
And in the Treasury of Precious Qualities we find the following:
When the eagle soars up, high above the earth,
Its shadow for the while is nowhere to be seen;
Yet bird and shadow are still linked. So to our actions:
When conditions come together,
Their effects are clearly seen.



So my questions are the following:

HOW does the action carry over like the shadow of one's "life"?  I know that it IS karma that amasses over the course of a being's sentience and ignorance.   But how does this karma move between aggregates coming together and coming apart?  How does this action survive the body's death death?  Is it more like a mental state that is subject to the kind of perception that many actions taken have shaped and when reborn, what is it that carries this memory? into the next life?  

From what I've studied action itself is empty, it is not a solid concrete tangible entirely quantifiable object, for example I snap my fingers and once I'm finished where is the action to be found?  Action is like time it is finite, it arises and falls away. I don't know, I'm asking, this is really kicking around in my head and has been for three days.  There is no "substance" no mono-object that is this one action.  For example fingers snapping you need object-finger then linking to object-other-finger, and object-air for object sound.  But action itself is this illusion of one object, like everything else I guess, which is its inherent emptiness.  YET it's still measurable.   It is quantifiable by its intent or effect, or both, or sometimes neither if the conditions aren't correct for the action to be visible to (who?)the naked eye looking at it.  Not only, but if there is a sentient being around it is BEING measured as the being experiences phenomena rise and fall away, right?  Whether it's a bee looking for a flower to get pollen or a person helping another person out, whatever is taking place in one's experience is constantly being evaluated (therefore quantified) and measured.  So when we die, and the Sutra of Instructions to the King says:

When the moment comes to leave, O King
Neither possessions, friends nor family can follow.
But wherever beings come from, wherever they go,
Their actions follow them like their own shadow.

(Rinpoche's commentary: The effects of our positive or negative actions may not be immediately evident and identifiable; but nor do they just fade away.  We will experience each one of them when the right conditions come together.)


Even after a hundred kalpas
Beings actions are never lost
When the conditions come together
Their fruit will fully ripen.



So this clearly states that actions are never lost and last longer than bodies.  Can anyone who might be more educated than myself perhaps shed a bit of light on what it is that is never lost exactly and how it moves from one state of awareness to another we call lives?

And of course if you DON'T ascribe to (literal) rebirth but prefer to envision it as a hyperbole of the mind, then your answers probably don't accord with the premise of the question.  Up to you whether to respond or not, but I'm primarily seeking input with rebirth being an underlying accepted assumption.    

Thank you for any help!
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Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Action
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 12:31:45 pm »
I'll answer your question with a question:

How does consciousness carry over from moment to moment?

Does it have (need) a vehicle?

Does it have (need) a form or substance?

Is it infinite?  Is it unchanging?

Through what medium does it move?

Where does it come from?  Where does it go?

I like the simile of the candle found in the Milindapanha (The questions of King Milinda).  I'll summarise it for you:  You have a lit candle in your left hand and an unlit one in your right hand.  When you light the right hand candle using the flame from the one in the left hand is it the same flame?

So even with physical phenomena a continuity exists but even there, there is not anything solid, unchanging, definable from moment to moment so why look, or try to define something for, karma vipaka?

Where is the outcome of popping a ballon with a pin?  In the pieces of the balloon?  In the pin?  In the sound that was made?  In the gas that was released? Is the outcome just the outcome itself?  If you remove all the physical evidence of the outcome does that mean that nothing happened (no outcome)?

Practice more, think less!  That's my (ill) advice to you! ;D
 :namaste:



"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline humanitas

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Re: Action
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2010, 03:11:59 pm »
I'll answer your question with a question:

How does consciousness carry over from moment to moment?

Does it have (need) a vehicle?

Does it have (need) a form or substance?

Is it infinite?  Is it unchanging?

Through what medium does it move?

Where does it come from?  Where does it go?

I like the simile of the candle found in the Milindapanha (The questions of King Milinda).  I'll summarise it for you:  You have a lit candle in your left hand and an unlit one in your right hand.  When you light the right hand candle using the flame from the one in the left hand is it the same flame?

So even with physical phenomena a continuity exists but even there, there is not anything solid, unchanging, definable from moment to moment so why look, or try to define something for, karma vipaka?

Where is the outcome of popping a ballon with a pin?  In the pieces of the balloon?  In the pin?  In the sound that was made?  In the gas that was released? Is the outcome just the outcome itself?  If you remove all the physical evidence of the outcome does that mean that nothing happened (no outcome)?

Practice more, think less!  That's my (ill) advice to you! ;D
 :namaste:





Why try to define it, I'm being silly. You've sufficiently demonstrated to me that this question was a waste of time, and needless thinking.  Thank you.  You have directly and positively contributed to (my) practice but allowing me to get rid of something that was chewing at my attention.  Now I can just go back to less thinking and more critical intelligence application (dharma in motion). :namaste:   

:headbow:
Ogyen.
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Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Action
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 03:41:27 am »
You're welcome!

May your practice lead you directly to enlightenment in this lifetime (do not pass go, do not collect 200 rebirths)!
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline humanitas

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Re: Action
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 12:07:24 pm »
do I get a "get outta jail free" pass?  :lmfao:
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Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Action
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 12:14:18 pm »
I'll answer your question with a question:

How does consciousness carry over from moment to moment?

Does it have (need) a vehicle?

Does it have (need) a form or substance?

Is it infinite?  Is it unchanging?

Through what medium does it move?

Where does it come from?  Where does it go?

I like the simile of the candle found in the Milindapanha (The questions of King Milinda).  I'll summarise it for you:  You have a lit candle in your left hand and an unlit one in your right hand.  When you light the right hand candle using the flame from the one in the left hand is it the same flame?

So even with physical phenomena a continuity exists but even there, there is not anything solid, unchanging, definable from moment to moment so why look, or try to define something for, karma vipaka?

Where is the outcome of popping a ballon with a pin?  In the pieces of the balloon?  In the pin?  In the sound that was made?  In the gas that was released? Is the outcome just the outcome itself?  If you remove all the physical evidence of the outcome does that mean that nothing happened (no outcome)?

Practice more, think less!  That's my (ill) advice to you! ;D
 :namaste:



[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

 


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