Padmasambhava: Black Magician?

[Gesar]

Did Padmasambhava practice black magic?  This seems to be a touchy subject in some circles, and I don't know why. I thought it was an historical fact that he subdued the pesky evil Himalayan deities and turned them into Dharma protectors with his black magic. For this (among other reasons) he's considered a national hero.  And back in those days, according to several scholarly sources, tantra and black magic were part of the same package.  Some people feel there's a stigma against black magic, but Guru Rinpoche used his for compassionate ends, so I don't see a problem. Back then it was just a part of the culture in certain regions. (Still is, on the shamanic side of Mongol culture, but it doesn't ruffle any feathers to talk about it there.)  And no one is saying that black magic is still part of Tantric Buddhism today. Still,  there's no question black magic was around hundreds of years ago, because Milarepa studied it, then abandoned it.

How do others feel about this?

[Caz]

Black magic is not tantra.
Guru Rinpoche was a fully enlightened being.
There is no black magic in Tantra full stop.
Dont confised Siddhis with Black magic. 

[Gesar]

I agree there is no black magic in tantra today. I'm asking about back in medieval times. Are you saying that Padmasambhava subdued the deities via siddhis? I've never heard of such powerful siddhis. The Buddha discusses siddhis, but AFAIK, nothing like subduing wrathful deities.

[Caz]

I agree there is no black magic in tantra today. I'm asking about back in medieval times. Are you saying that Padmasambhava subdued the deities via siddhis? I've never heard of such powerful siddhis. The Buddha discusses siddhis, but AFAIK, nothing like subduing wrathful deities.

Padmasabhava was a fully accomplished Buddha, Such beings have incredible Siddhis. When you have an accomplished master like that and they teach you tantric practise what need could there be for Black magic ? Through the force of concentration and Mantra samsaric beings can be tamed or ejected to a pureland.
Only In greatly degenerate times would anyone have claimed that Black magic was genuine tantric practise no doubt such took route during the reign of Langdharma. The Bonpo where ones who where accused of practising black magic and various scrafices prior to Buddhist arrival In tibet so no doubt that some of the customs survived.

[incognito]

Apparently some people describe him as a white magician who subdued black magic,  others that he's stilll alive and living in a land of vampires. There was a widespread belief in Tibet that the paranormal powers of black magic could be acquired through mortification of the body, meditation and the practice of tantric rituals.

The stigmatism attached to black magic is because it's seen as destructive in nature, where the intent behind its use is typically used for a selfish or self-centered purpose. For example, it's also belived that Jetsun Milarepa spent six years in isolation, living in cave to atone for having used black magic to kill his family's enemies in the 11th century:

As the story goes, in approximately the year 1060 Milarepa sought vengeance on unscrupulous relatives for mistreating his mother and sister. Having been trained in sorcery, he commanded a rain of scorpions, snakes, and lizards to attack the villains. But when his teacher rebuked him for his evil deeds, Milarepa turned his back on black magic in order to seek mystic truth. He retreated to a cave where, after years of intense meditation, he acquired the power to change his body into any shape and fly across the sky like a bird. But most important, he achieved the greatest victory of all: mastery over his own self.

Also came across a thread in regard to Padmasambhava here:

http://tribes.tribe.net/chagdudgonpa/thread/430e22e1-084a-4ac0-9c9b-add72e1a7643

[t]

Subduing in Buddhism is nothing about bullying one into submission but rather about transforming one's ignorance into wisdom be it via peaceful or wrathful methods. There are many references in various Canons on how the Buddha did just that with all kinds of sentient beings like Alavaka the yaksha/yakkha who threatened to pounce on the Buddha if He did not respond correctly to his queries, subduing of the fiery dragon in the cave in the story of the 3 Kasyapa/Kassapa Brothers, dealing with the raksasa mother who ate the children of others, subduing of the proud Brahma devas with discourses, the famed story of taming the infamous murderer Angulimala and so forth...

I was even amused that in one similar thread elsewhere where one cited Jetsun Milarepa as being a practitioner of the dark arts but failed to cite how that was in his days before he had the tutelage of Marpa, and it was out of vengeance against his harmful family kindred. One can read in his life how his previous harmful actions manifested as obstacles in the Path later...     

[incognito]

Subduing in Buddhism is nothing about bullying one into submission but rather about transforming one's ignorance into wisdom be it via peaceful or wrathful methods.

That's very true, where the act of subduing would be no different than how the word "defeat" is used in this verse -- After six years of ascetic discipline he overcame mistaken views and defeated Mara by raising a single finger while meditating under the Bodhi Tree, achieving his great awakening -- but when it comes to Tibet (old Tibet) it can also reflect an entirely different pathos in rhetorical parlance, especially when one takes into account that such stories and legends have existed in one form or another for centuries, where if one were to cast the intended meaning in a different light it would probably require a substantial redaction of Tibetan history.

For example, the photo below is of the first page of a Dunhuang manuscript at the British Museum (IOL Tib J 401), a Tibetan book composed in the 9th or 10th century by a Buddhist monk who incribed his name on it with big letters, that it's the Sadhana of Bhiká¹£u Prajnaprabha (kru prad nya pra ba 'i no pyi ka).



Only one problem... it's not your typical sadhana, but a very extensive collection of ritual magic, including one particular ritual that would allow the adept to cast spells for the following purposes:

- If you want a prophecy
- To bring demons under your power
- To pacify malignant people
- To overcome wild animals
- To cause a spring to come forth to alleviate thirst
- To sharpen your insight
- To create various valuable objects
- To find a treasure
- To cure an illness
- To cure a severe illness up to the point of death
- To cure an illness-ghost with a trap
- To cut off curses and bad births
- To reverse water, making it flow upwards
- To make it flow downhill again
- To cure madness
- To avoid being bitten by a dog
- To divide two lovers
- To reconcile two friends
- If you are unable to talk to others
- If you want to be friendly with another person
- To bind someone

It also includes complicated rituals that accomplish a single aim, such as a fire puja which cures insanity, with the exception that our friendly neighborhood monk and adept of the magical arts also calls for the throwing of metal filings into the fire nine times and then five ritual daggers are stabbed into the ground as if one were pinning down a demon.

[Blue Garuda]

Not sure what bearing the monk's ramblings have on Padmasabhava, but a lot of what is listed can be achieved by conjuring tricks and by such skills as dowsing, which could easily be done with accompanying mumbo-jumbo, cold reading etc.

I've just seen a magician on TV walk on water and I'm pretty sure he could turn water into wine.

If Padmasabhava used any magical powers it would be classed as White magic because of the intention.  Magic itself has no morality attached to it.

I've not explored why, but one set of vows include a promise not to use my miracle powers and another asks me to promise to use them.

Modern examples of similar extraordinary powers include mirror divination by Lama Dawa and the Nechung Oracle whose trances and predictions guide HHDL's most important decisions.   The thing is, as long as these activities produce helpful results, people will continue to use them, which IMHO is perfectly logical.

If Padmasambhava bound sprits and created Dharmapalas, then there would still be no reason for the Dharmapalas to enjoy current propitiation unless they are deemed to be helping practitioners. 

Padmasambhava was from Oddiyana, not Tibet.  There is an abiding presence of Black magic practice in India.  I knw one young man whose family were engaged in a feud. His father was killed and at the funeral the son smashed the skull of his dead father to rpevent it being used for black magic by his killers.  This was around 10 years ago in Mumbai.

I have also assisted a Geshe in the UK in removing poltergeit-type spirits from the home of some very frightened people. The ritual was immediately effective.  It came from a Sanskrit sadhana translated into Tibetan by Je Tsongkhapa. The mind of Compassion was essential at all times so I can't perceive that as 'back' in any respect.  Maybe powers were at work on the spirits and perhaps powers were at work on the realities within the minds of those affected. No matter - it worked.

Remember, Tantra is all about moving our minds through changing reality.  There is an inherent danger in that, as someone could use it to prey on the gullible.  A practitioner may indeed use it to harm others.  Plunging into Vajra Hell is certainly a possibility for those of the left-hand path, but the path is not one of obscuration and trickery, it is one of revelation and  development.

[Blue Garuda]

I agree there is no black magic in tantra today. I'm asking about back in medieval times. Are you saying that Padmasambhava subdued the deities via siddhis? I've never heard of such powerful siddhis. The Buddha discusses siddhis, but AFAIK, nothing like subduing wrathful deities.

Such rituals exist in Tantra today, prefaced by putting on 'armour' and sanctifying the area where the practice is to be conducted.

In performing Phowa for a deceased person, in calling their bardo being one runs the risk that other beings may attend.

The practice of Tsog is a feast which also includes the spirits.

In Chod you are  inviting such beings to feast on your body.

That is to say, this is what an outsider may observe or conclude from the sadhanas.  The true meaning is that of destroying maras and delusions, cutting through pride etc.

It's a complex non-duality in the sense that one must truly believe in the reality of what one is performing in order for it to train the mind.   One can't stand aside and 'pretend' to be a meditational diety or 'pretend' that ghosts exist etc. if the mind is to move.

[incognito]

Not sure what bearing the monk's ramblings have on Padmasabhava, but a lot of what is listed can be achieved by conjuring tricks and by such skills as dowsing, which could easily be done with accompanying mumbo-jumbo, cold reading etc.

I've just seen a magician on TV walk on water and I'm pretty sure he could turn water into wine.

If Padmasabhava used any magical powers it would be classed as White magic because of the intention.  Magic itself has no morality attached to it.

I kind of suspected that would be the case with no morality attached to the ritual or the casting of spells, just like the Wiccan and others out here say that magic is magic, that it's neither black or white.

[Gesar]

Incognito, I came across the same site as you posted a link to, before I started this thread. Notice that the lama who contributes to the posts starts out by saying "Yes", Padmasambhava knew black magic.  Then in the next paragraph he says "No", he didn't use it. (Or at least not in Tibet.)  I think what the lama is saying is that Padmasambhava was an adept of black magic, but he didn't use it, at least, not after he entered Tibet. I'm not convinced, though, that this isn't a whitewashed version of history. This is what I'd hoped to explore here. My vague recollection from academic study of TB is that Padmasambhava's black magic was discussed openly.

Yes, precisely, Yeshe. Padmasambhava was from Oddiyana, where tantra, which at the time included black magic, was extremely popular. Even today in India,  tantra carries a stigma, because it's associated with black magic. I would assume, though, that contemporary Tantric Buddhism has left black magic behind. It's been almost 1400 years since Padasambhava's day, after all.

If we define the difference between black and white magic by the intent behind it (compassion vs. harm), then a couple of the items in the Dunhuang book could fall in the  black magic category: "to bring demons under your power", and "to divide two lovers".

And didn't the Buddha say monks aren't supposed to engage in soothsaying and other occult practices? Or at least, they weren't supposed to charge for those services.  I think the Dunhuang text illustrates that with the arrival of Buddhism, the monks took on the role of the old shamans.  The new order replaced the old.  Humans have always needed counsel and problem-solving for day-to-day samsaric issues. Back in those days, that problem-solving took the form of magic. In a Buddhist society, the monk, as the accepted spiritual authority, would fill that role.

Interestingly, though, in Mongol regions, the people use both; they go to both a shaman and a monk for divination and healing, hedging their bets by relying on both traditions. 

[Blue Garuda]

Not sure what bearing the monk's ramblings have on Padmasabhava, but a lot of what is listed can be achieved by conjuring tricks and by such skills as dowsing, which could easily be done with accompanying mumbo-jumbo, cold reading etc.

I've just seen a magician on TV walk on water and I'm pretty sure he could turn water into wine.

If Padmasabhava used any magical powers it would be classed as White magic because of the intention.  Magic itself has no morality attached to it.

I kind of suspected that would be the case with no morality attached to the ritual or the casting of spells, just like the Wiccan and others out here say that magic is magic, that it's neither black or white.

Magic is often linked to the natural forces we experience - the seasons, the weather etc.  Some claim either to control it, or to harness the energy of it.

Depending on how we interpret relics and archaeological evidence such as Stonehenge, we may have lived with shamanism for as long as we held fear about hunting, harvests, disease etc.   But I doubt that it would have survived without a belief in its efficacy.

It is possible that Padmasambhava was a highly skilled trickster, or a sincere but misguided charismatic figure, or that he actually did what scripture says that he did.  We are then left to interpret the stories. 

I would add the caveat that 'hell hath no fury like a shaman scorned' so stories of back magic etc have always been a good way to descredit a rival.   

[Blue Garuda]

If we define the difference between black and white magic by the intent behind it (compassion vs. harm), then a couple of the items in the Dunhuang book could fall in the  black magic category: "to bring demons under your power", and "to divide two lovers".

I could ascribe compasisonate intent to both thise actions.  Padmasambhava bound spirits and they became Dharmapalas. there ares everal Tantric rituals for bringing demons and maiclious spirits under one's control.  At a more general elvel, one could one not conduct Tsog, Phowa or other ceremonies if malevolent spirits were disrupting it, so again it is acceptable to subdue and control them.

Dividing two lover because their sexual union is harmful is also fine in terms of intent.

[Gesar]

I could ascribe compasisonate intent to both thise actions.  Padmasambhava bound spirits and they became Dharmapalas. there ares everal Tantric rituals for bringing demons and maiclious spirits under one's control.  At a more general elvel, one could one not conduct Tsog, Phowa or other ceremonies if malevolent spirits were disrupting it, so again it is acceptable to subdue and control them.

Dividing two lover because their sexual union is harmful is also fine in terms of intent.

Right. I can think of situations in which those two "requests" could have benevolent intent. I could also think of situations in which they could have malevolent intent. What we don't know is if the monk-magician was selective about his "client's" intent.

[incognito]

I think the Dunhuang text illustrates that with the arrival of Buddhism, the monks took on the role of the old shamans.  The new order replaced the old.  Humans have always needed counsel and problem-solving for day-to-day samsaric issues. Back in those days, that problem-solving took the form of magic. In a Buddhist society, the monk, as the accepted spiritual authority, would fill that role.

Or that with the arrival of Buddhism, the shaman took on the role of the monk, probably a bit of both involved in the process.