Padmasambhava: Black Magician?

[Blue Garuda]

I think the Dunhuang text illustrates that with the arrival of Buddhism, the monks took on the role of the old shamans.  The new order replaced the old.  Humans have always needed counsel and problem-solving for day-to-day samsaric issues. Back in those days, that problem-solving took the form of magic. In a Buddhist society, the monk, as the accepted spiritual authority, would fill that role.

Or that with the arrival of Buddhism, the shaman took on the role of the monk, probably a bit of both involved in the process.

If we are talking of Tibet than it is more likely that the 'white sangha' Ngagpa (Ngakpa) of non-monastic Lamas either emerged from within the shamans as the Nyingma grew, or has become of a higher status, leaving the shamans to perform at village level.

[Gesar]

I think the Dunhuang text illustrates that with the arrival of Buddhism, the monks took on the role of the old shamans.  The new order replaced the old.  Humans have always needed counsel and problem-solving for day-to-day samsaric issues. Back in those days, that problem-solving took the form of magic. In a Buddhist society, the monk, as the accepted spiritual authority, would fill that role.

Or that with the arrival of Buddhism, the shaman took on the role of the monk, probably a bit of both involved in the process.

If we are talking of Tibet than it is more likely that the 'white sangha' Ngagpa (Ngakpa) of non-monastic Lamas either emerged from within the shamans as the Nyingma grew, or has become of a higher status, leaving the shamans to perform at village level.

It's true that the shamans (if we consider Bon as former shamanism) took on the role of the monk, assimilated to Buddhism.  And I've always wondered if shamanism was still practiced in Tibet, alongside Buddhism, but as you say, Yeshe, at the village level, like it is in Mongolia.  But no one ever writes about that, I haven't seen it researched. The only sign I've seen of that is the film, "Oracles of Ladakh". The traditional oracles are all women, and their trance ritual is identical to Siberian/Inner Asian shamanism.  From what little I've heard of the Ngagpas, it sounds like they've carried on aspects of the shamanic tradition, but I don't know much about it.

[Blue Garuda]

This book is an excellent piece of investigation, 'Himalayan Dialogue':

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Himalayan-Dialogue-Tibetan-directions-anthropological/dp/029911984X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311935673&sr=8-1

And a more personal commentary, 'Magic & Mystery in Tibet:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magic-Mystery-Tibet-Alexandra-David-Neel/dp/0285637924/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311935748&sr=1-1

I think it is difficult to separate out the attitudes of the monastics, the Ngagpa and the villagers in the way they regard each other.   I think a shaman may be a Buddhist in motivation, use some shared practices, and would perhaps see working with nature and with spirits as compatible with Refuge in the 3 Jewels.   In a similar way, we see Buddhists like HHDL using oracles etc. and monks who use herbal remedies and deal with spirits as part of their practice.   I guess a certain divide would be identified if a villager or shaman took refuge only in the local spirits.

Civilisations are complex things and I guess there will always be a 'belt and braces' appoach, such as when Buddhist Sherpas climb and get a blessing from both Buddhist and shamanic sources, and make offerings to the spirits and Buddhas.   I understand Japan has a similar mix of Shinto, Daoism and Buddhism.  It's hard to split out what is 'non-Buddhist' .

[Gesar]

Good post, sensible stuff. Funny that you referred me to Alexandra David-Neel.  It's back to the basics! That and "Way of the White Clouds" were the books that turned me on to TB in the first place. But I've been meaning to re-read David-Neel, thanks for the reminder.

Yes, sometimes it's not possible to disentangle the different elements of and influences into a culture.  I didn't know Tibetan doctors appeal to the spirits sometimes. The Tib. doctors I've known don't do that. They disapprove of anything remotely resembling shamanism.

[Blue Garuda]

Good post, sensible stuff. Funny that you referred me to Alexandra David-Neel.  It's back to the basics! That and "Way of the White Clouds" were the books that turned me on to TB in the first place. But I've been meaning to re-read David-Neel, thanks for the reminder.

Yes, sometimes it's not possible to disentangle the different elements of and influences into a culture.  I didn't know Tibetan doctors appeal to the spirits sometimes. The Tib. doctors I've known don't do that. They disapprove of anything remotely resembling shamanism.

Treatment of illnesses, both physical and mental, may make use of a variety of techniques.

I've seen the doctors more as medical herbalists, and whilst I've not gone into it much, it seemed similar to Ayurveda.  I only ever got stomach ache once in India, a long time ago,  and it was cured by chewing some leaves given to me by an Indian friend.  It turned out to be Neem Tree, which is the latest fad in health food shops now that aloe vera isn't sexy any more. LOL

The Geshe who is my teacher at the moment seems to offer remedies every now and again, but he has also told me that Tibetans have problems with high blood pressure, heart disease etc. due to the high level of fat and salt they consume.

[incognito]

It's true that the shamans (if we consider Bon as former shamanism) took on the role of the monk, assimilated to Buddhism.  And I've always wondered if shamanism was still practiced in Tibet, alongside Buddhism, but as you say, Yeshe, at the village level, like it is in Mongolia.  But no one ever writes about that, I haven't seen it researched. The only sign I've seen of that is the film, "Oracles of Ladakh". The traditional oracles are all women, and their trance ritual is identical to Siberian/Inner Asian shamanism.  From what little I've heard of the Ngagpas, it sounds like they've carried on aspects of the shamanic tradition, but I don't know much about it.

Well, there's the female oracle that the Dalai Lama consulted in regard to the Shugden controversy, so it would appear that it still exists.

[tsultrim]

I must admit i havent read every post in this thread so may have missed something... What exactly is black magic? what is white magic? are we bringing in terms  familiar to us in a western christian  tradition without understanding other cultural contexts. I remember describing chod practice to a friend who  immedietely said " oh your practicicng the dark side"...!!!! Any comments??

[santamonicacj]

I must admit i havent read every post in this thread so may have missed something... What exactly is black magic? what is white magic? are we bringing in terms  familiar to us in a western christian  tradition without understanding other cultural contexts. I remember describing chod practice to a friend who  immedietely said " oh your practicicng the dark side"...!!!! Any comments??

IMHO:
"Black Magic" would be something which has a negative motivation, harmful result, and negative karmic consequences. (See Milarepas revenge on his uncle's family.)
"White Magic" would be the opposite, but still within samsara. (In this context I use "samsara" to mean the arrangements of circumstance, or the realm of appearances as seen by the delusional mind.)
"Dharma Siddhis" would be methods for bringing oneself or others to spiritual realization. (See Milarepa's marvels after his realization of Buddhahood.)

[Lobster]

What exactly is black magic?

Daka (wizards) and dakini (witches) following the Buddhist path, practice magic for the benefit of beings. How so? Well for example Tonglen
http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/A1045784

Most magicians are self orientated, not other orientated. It is intention that is important 

May all beings benefit (Buddhist)
But mostly me (black magic)

[Hanzze]

Maybe somebody like to read this story:

The Healing of the Bull

*smile*