Author Topic: The two Karmapas  (Read 682 times)

Offline Gibbon

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The two Karmapas
« on: October 11, 2018, 05:04:51 pm »
What a joyous, unprecedented event has just taken place -- the two Karmapas meeting in the free realm of the West.  May the holy Karma Kagyu school heal and grow even stronger to benefit the multitudes of living beings who have a connection with it.  Congratulations to Kagyu practitioners everywhere!

It brought tears to my eyes reflecting that things are not hopeless and can sometimes be put right.  If the two Karmapas can do it, maybe with a bit of goodwill the other rifts in Tibetan Buddhism can be healed, too.  One can certainly hope and pray for that.

Here is the article from Tibet Sun https://www.tibetsun.com/news/2018/10/11/first-meeting-of-karmapa-ogyen-trinley-dorje-and-trinley-thaye-dorje, which includes their amazing joint statement, and the one in Tricycle https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/karmapas-meet/.


Online Chaz

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2018, 08:57:06 am »
I've managed to steer clear of this controversy, despite the fact I've practiced in the Kagyu lineage for 15 years.  My guru, as well has his family, support Ogyen Trinley Dorje.

That said, I'm happy the two have finally met and opened a dialog.  I'm not certain that anything can or will come of the meeting, but talking is better than not.

I have nothing against Trinley Thaye Dorje, or people referring to him as the 17th Karmapa.

I've felt for years that there wasn't a legitimate reason why we couldn't have 2 Karmapas at the same time.

Online Chaz

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 04:54:54 pm »
I can't help but wonder if the the two Karmapas are Nephews of the 16th?   :teehee:

Offline Gibbon

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 12:43:57 pm »

I enjoyed reading this comment to the Tibet Sun article, seems to be appropriate:


Where their “God-fathers” failed the two “throne-holders” seem to be succeeding. Perhaps by being sensible and courageous enough to catch the bull by horn in doing away the unfortunate schism in the 17th lineage-holder of Karma Kagyu.

When you peel off all sorts of arguments and justifications, it is a man-made division and therefore it should be possible to resolve this ugly schism by a determined and sincere human efforts. This is exactly what HH Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje are trying to do though they are not in any way responsible for the mess in the first place. Yet they are made to face the consequences. Unfair? Yes. But then high place of power has its own price.

I have no knowledge of the presence of other players or the terms and conditions in leading up to the joint statement which, I feel, deserves to be welcomed!

By birth I belong to this tradition and I respect it though not a chest-beating follower. My appreciation lies in the fact that two highly-held public personages like the Two Trinley Dorjes use common sense to resolve a difference in a practical manner for the common interest.

It is a happy news, especially when the Tibetan nation is chained down in darkness and the Tibetans are feeling down and out.

What about the others!? Are they willing to try this EXAMPLE?

Online Chaz

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 02:21:20 pm »

I enjoyed reading this comment to the Tibet Sun article, seems to be appropriate:


Where their “God-fathers” failed the two “throne-holders” seem to be succeeding. Perhaps by being sensible and courageous enough to catch the bull by horn in doing away the unfortunate schism in the 17th lineage-holder of Karma Kagyu.

When you peel off all sorts of arguments and justifications, it is a man-made division and therefore it should be possible to resolve this ugly schism by a determined and sincere human efforts. This is exactly what HH Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje are trying to do though they are not in any way responsible for the mess in the first place. Yet they are made to face the consequences. Unfair? Yes. But then high place of power has its own price.

I have no knowledge of the presence of other players or the terms and conditions in leading up to the joint statement which, I feel, deserves to be welcomed!

By birth I belong to this tradition and I respect it though not a chest-beating follower. My appreciation lies in the fact that two highly-held public personages like the Two Trinley Dorjes use common sense to resolve a difference in a practical manner for the common interest.

It is a happy news, especially when the Tibetan nation is chained down in darkness and the Tibetans are feeling down and out.

What about the others!? Are they willing to try this EXAMPLE?

That's a great read.

I'll stand by my previous suggestion:  What's wrong with 2 Karmapas?

Offline Gibbon

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 02:25:51 pm »
Nothing wrong with that!  "The Karmapas" also sounds like a good name for a band (Sorry for being tongue-in-cheek, this is a serious issue, but some levity is probably not harmful, right?)

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2018, 09:20:12 am »
Nothing wrong with that!  "The Karmapas" also sounds like a good name for a band (Sorry for being tongue-in-cheek, this is a serious issue, but some levity is probably not harmful, right?)

For me, I don't see things changing much apart from a dialog.

Would one or the other be required to give up his position?  That's not likely to happen.  Until it does, the Kagyu is still going to be split and that might be okay.  The lineage seems to be doing just fine with the status quo and if it ain't broke no need to try to fix it.

I can't even think of what they'd have to talk about.  They have their followers and matters relating to that probably don't cross over very much.

I suppose they could work out something with the Black Hat.  Perhaps only one of these two branches can/should lay claim to it's continued use.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:47:09 am by IdleChater »

Offline Gibbon

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Re: The two Karmapas
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2018, 01:12:32 pm »

Here is an article on the political implications of this from ThePrint.in:

https://theprint.in/opinion/2-karmapas-are-uniting-and-its-time-for-india-to-deal-with-it-in-a-mature-way/134917/

I practice in the Gelugpa school, which is going through a major rift of its own, lasting over twenty years now.  Who knows if it will ever be put right.  Therefore it is so encouraging to see that elsewhere, young lamas are making efforts to heal a problem within their tradition.  And it's especially nice to see this hopeful development in the great, holy Karma Kagyu lineage.

 


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