Author Topic: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana  (Read 3584 times)

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« on: December 25, 2009, 06:44:51 pm »
Tibetan Buddhism IS Vajrayana?  Vajrayana is not Tibetan Buddhism but it is practiced by Tibetan Buddhists?  Are lineages Nyingma,Kagyu,Sakya,Gelug all synonymous with Vajrayana practice or do only some members of these lineages practice Vajrayana? Can someone explain this to me?  It might be so obvious I've missed it...  :daydream:
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Chaz

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2009, 07:16:27 pm »
Tibetan Buddhism IS Vajrayana?  Vajrayana is not Tibetan Buddhism but it is practiced by Tibetan Buddhists?  Are lineages Nyingma,Kagyu,Sakya,Gelug all synonymous with Vajrayana practice or do only some members of these lineages practice Vajrayana? Can someone explain this to me?  It might be so obvious I've missed it...  :daydream:

Well, not all members of those lineages are Vajrayana practitioners. Some students don't have the capacity or the inclination to undertake the practices of Vajrayana and don't go beyond Mahayana practices.

Just because you're practicing in a Vajrayana lineage doesn't always mean you'll be a Vajrayana student.

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2009, 07:50:35 pm »
So Mahayana and Vajrayana are not the same practice then...?
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Jangchup Donden

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2009, 08:21:59 pm »
So Mahayana and Vajrayana are not the same practice then...?

Nope.  Vajrayana takes the result as the path.

I think Guru Rinpoche had a quote somewhere along the lines of "The difference between Hinayana and Mahayana is Bodhichitta.  The difference between Mahayana and Vajrayana is visualizing yourself as a deity."

Even within Vajrayana there are different levels of practice.  But generally, practice isn't Vajrayana without visualizing yourself as a deity, which in turn requires a guru for empowerment, transmission and instruction.

TMingyur

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2009, 08:23:57 pm »
So Mahayana and Vajrayana are not the same practice then...?

That is why Vajrayana is called "uncommon Mahayana". And IMO it is good that it is "uncommon".

Kind regards

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2009, 07:18:07 pm »
That is why Vajrayana is called "uncommon Mahayana". And IMO it is good that it is "uncommon".

How is that?
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

TMingyur

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2009, 11:43:55 pm »
That is why Vajrayana is called "uncommon Mahayana". And IMO it is good that it is "uncommon".

How is that?

If Vajrayana would become "common" then it would no longer be Mahayana but Mahayana would disappear.

Kind regards

Chokyi Wangpo

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 03:10:52 am »
Remember also that Shingon is Vajrayana but it arrived in Japan via different lineages. So Tibetan Buddhism belongs in the category of Vajrayana, which falls in the category of Mahayana.

Offline santamonicacj

  • Member
  • Posts: 2271
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 04:39:40 am »
So Mahayana and Vajrayana are not the same practice then...?
The Vajrayana is a subset of, and contained within the Mahayana. It is a specific form of Mahayana.

All the major traditions of Tibet contained all three level of practice; Therevada, Mahayana, Vajrayana. However they all saw the Vajrayana as the pinnacle of practice.

There was Japanese Vajrayana too, but I forget the name of the school.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 10:57:55 am »
Shingon is the Vajrayana incorporated into Tendai (I think...)

I've seen some conflicting information, that's why I had to ask, so Vajrayana is a tradition WITHIN Mahayana and is one of the practices of Tibetan Buddhism...?
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline caritas

  • Member
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 04:36:08 pm »
Ignoring the etymology and the history of linguistic usage (as tangents) - Vaj is a set of teachings designed for practitioners who have already directly comprehended the prajna paramita and thus no longer need to rely on teachings designed for development of the first six paramitas per se. These days any person with the opportunity to receive these teachings can do so, but they are most properly applicable to the conditions of advanced practitioners - those with direct insight into sunyata. While anyone can benefit from Vaj practise, practitioners without a strong foundation in the details of Mahayana thought are likely to retain mistaken notions, leading to an unbalanced approach, a sort of problem like subtle nihilism or subtle eternalism, which would ideally be sorted out before use of Vaj methods. In this sense Vaj is like Mahayana Engineering - Mahayana is a philosophical distinction based on the definition of some Hinayana (ptu) which is conceived to be philosophically limited. Vaj is then the application of the clarity of that philosophical distinction, with the assumption that some materials necessary to a thorough application in daily life are to hand. So you can say that Vaj traditions are technically a subset of Mahayana philosophical constructs, increasingly directed toward modifications of praxis rather than view, as one examines the 'line' of increasingly esoteric models.

Chokyi Wangpo

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2009, 06:26:50 pm »
Ignoring the etymology and the history of linguistic usage (as tangents) - Vaj is a set of teachings designed for practitioners who have already directly comprehended the prajna paramita and thus no longer need to rely on teachings designed for development of the first six paramitas per se. These days any person with the opportunity to receive these teachings can do so, but they are most properly applicable to the conditions of advanced practitioners - those with direct insight into sunyata. While anyone can benefit from Vaj practise, practitioners without a strong foundation in the details of Mahayana thought are likely to retain mistaken notions, leading to an unbalanced approach, a sort of problem like subtle nihilism or subtle eternalism, which would ideally be sorted out before use of Vaj methods. In this sense Vaj is like Mahayana Engineering - Mahayana is a philosophical distinction based on the definition of some Hinayana (ptu) which is conceived to be philosophically limited. Vaj is then the application of the clarity of that philosophical distinction, with the assumption that some materials necessary to a thorough application in daily life are to hand. So you can say that Vaj traditions are technically a subset of Mahayana philosophical constructs, increasingly directed toward modifications of praxis rather than view, as one examines the 'line' of increasingly esoteric models.

What is your source(s) for this? In particular the assertion that Vajrayana is for practioners who have directly comprehended the prajna paramita and no longer need to rely on on the six paramitas?

Offline caritas

  • Member
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 07:10:15 pm »
What is your source(s) for this? In particular the assertion that Vajrayana is for practitioners who have directly comprehended the prajna paramita
Designed for. That is a specific point. There are countless references to this, maybe I can dig one up for you.

Quote
and no longer need to rely on on the six paramitas?
This is not what I wrote.

Chokyi Wangpo

  • Guest
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2009, 08:00:45 pm »
What is your source(s) for this? In particular the assertion that Vajrayana is for practitioners who have directly comprehended the prajna paramita
Designed for. That is a specific point. There are countless references to this, maybe I can dig one up for you.

Quote
and no longer need to rely on on the six paramitas?
This is not what I wrote.


Okay...then how about "and thus no longer need to rely on teachings designed for development of the first six paramitas per se."

My question still stands though.

Offline santamonicacj

  • Member
  • Posts: 2271
    • View Profile
Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2009, 11:27:03 pm »
A slightly different question that occurred to me after re-reading the thread starter: What is the definition of the Vajrayana? Is Sutrayana Mahamudra Vajrayana? Is shamatha Vajrayana?

I honestly don't know. :help:
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal