Author Topic: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana  (Read 3588 times)

TMingyur

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2009, 04:04:25 am »
A slightly different question that occurred to me after re-reading the thread starter: What is the definition of the Vajrayana? Is Sutrayana Mahamudra Vajrayana? Is shamatha Vajrayana?

I honestly don't know. :help:
Why is it important to know? There will certainly be different views about that depending on the context of the holders of these views

Kind regards

TMingyur

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 04:08:06 am »
What is your source(s) for this? In particular the assertion that Vajrayana is for practitioners who have directly comprehended the prajna paramita
Designed for. That is a specific point. There are countless references to this, maybe I can dig one up for you.

Quote
and no longer need to rely on on the six paramitas?
This is not what I wrote.


Okay...then how about "and thus no longer need to rely on teachings designed for development of the first six paramitas per se."

My question still stands though.

The assumption her seems to be that those who practice vajrayana already have attained the qualities of those who practice the "teachings designed for development of the first six paramitas" successfully. This of course may be wishful thinking.

Kind regards

Chokyi Wangpo

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2009, 06:38:56 am »
This is theory, but was it ever practiced this way?

TMingyur

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2009, 07:04:05 am »
This is theory, but was it ever practiced this way?
No ... and actually it wouldn't make much sense the way I have stated it because having attained the qualities why then practice vajrayana? Having perfectly attained  the qualities would IMO mean to be a Buddha. But vajrayana is actually meant to speed up the process to buddhahood.
Considering that the method of the paramitas are the cause for a buddha's form body (wisdom being the cause for the wisdom body) vajrayana actually renders the method side of the paramitas (as taught in sutra) superfluous or at least partially superfluous (there may be different interpretations in the different schools).
But considering "form body" "Wisdom body" (nirmana-/samboga-/dharmakaya) or "effect vehicle or th vehicle of skillful means" the vocabulary and the reasoning in the context of vajrayana gets more and more "un-common". So I better leave it at that ...

Kind regards
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 07:11:19 am by TMingyur »

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2009, 03:13:41 pm »
Considering that the method of the paramitas are the cause for a buddha's form body (wisdom being the cause for the wisdom body) vajrayana actually renders the method side of the paramitas (as taught in sutra) superfluous or at least partially superfluous (there may be different interpretations in the different schools).
The Six Paramitas are practiced in the Vajrayana. Enthusiastic Perseverance (go for it!), Patience (putting up with difficulties in practice), Generosity (bodhicitta, i.e. for the benefit of others), etc.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Chokyi Wangpo

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2009, 12:34:07 am »
yes but are teachings that develop the six paramitas relied on per se?

(hmm...One of Patrul Rinpoche's few possessions at the time of his death was a rather well worn copy of Bodhisattvacharyavatar, written by Shantideva for his own benefit, the benefit of the 500 panditas of Nalanda, and for others of similar karma, after accomplishing Manjushri. ;)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2009, 03:04:44 am »
yes but are teachings that develop the six paramitas relied on per se?

(hmm...One of Patrul Rinpoche's few possessions at the time of his death was a rather well worn copy of Bodhisattvacharyavatar, written by Shantideva for his own benefit, the benefit of the 500 panditas of Nalanda, and for others of similar karma, after accomplishing Manjushri. ;)
I believe so. Gompopa's "Jewel Ornament" is studied within most of the Kagyu sects.

I case my previous post wasn't clear, all those perfections are included when you sit down to do formal Vajrayana practice. :twocents:
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Chokyi Wangpo

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2009, 04:41:39 am »
yes, it was clear. The six paramitas are implicit in Sadhana practice.

TMingyur

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2009, 05:24:33 am »
Considering that the method of the paramitas are the cause for a buddha's form body (wisdom being the cause for the wisdom body) vajrayana actually renders the method side of the paramitas (as taught in sutra) superfluous or at least partially superfluous (there may be different interpretations in the different schools).
The Six Paramitas are practiced in the Vajrayana. Enthusiastic Perseverance (go for it!), Patience (putting up with difficulties in practice), Generosity (bodhicitta, i.e. for the benefit of others), etc.
If you mean "in sadhana practice" it is not the paramitas of sutra (as taught in sutra). Generosity and bodhicitta are not the same.

Kind regards

Chokyi Wangpo

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2010, 09:11:03 pm »
How so? I have not heard this.

Offline Ngawang Drolma

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 11:50:10 am »
If I may, a vajrayana practitioner doesn't abandon the six paramitas, bodhicitta, etc.  Vajrayana uses certain methods, taking the result as the path as another poster said.  It remains uncommon Mahayana though people think of it as separate tradition.

Differences are that vajrayana relies upon transmission, blessings, a yidam, and a relationship with the guru (at higher levels).  At lower levels practitioners still do sadhanas that involve visualization of oneself as the deity or front-generations and they receive these practices from those qualified to provide transmission and blessings.  But lower tantras don't have the committments of HYT.  Vajrayana is known as a swift path but also more serious as it's described as a snake in a bamboo, it's a quick path up or down.  So many, many people choose to practice within the TB traditions without taking on the more intensive practices and vows.

As for tantra in general, it's my personal opinion that Medicine Buddha practice or Green Tara practice, for example, could be just fine for an entire lifetime.  And Mahayana practices could be plenty for a lifetime.  But different people are suited to different kinds of practice.  Some choose higher tantra and it suits them.

So to answer the OP directly, vajrayana is a form of Mahayana but is uncommon Mahayana and it contains specific means and methods to progress on the path.  But a vajrayana student doesn't abandon the vows of a bodhisattva, for example.  So there are connections and commonalities with the Mahayana.

And vajrayana not only comes out of Tibet, but Japan as well. Shingon is an esoteric form of Buddhism which uses tantric methods, as I understand it.

I hope this helps  :)

Kindly,
Laura
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 12:02:39 pm by LauraJ »

Chokyi Wangpo

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2010, 11:04:48 pm »
If I may, a vajrayana practitioner doesn't abandon the six paramitas, bodhicitta, etc.  Vajrayana uses certain methods, taking the result as the path as another poster said.  It remains uncommon Mahayana though people think of it as separate tradition.

Differences are that vajrayana relies upon transmission, blessings, a yidam, and a relationship with the guru (at higher levels).  At lower levels practitioners still do sadhanas that involve visualization of oneself as the deity or front-generations and they receive these practices from those qualified to provide transmission and blessings.  But lower tantras don't have the committments of HYT.  Vajrayana is known as a swift path but also more serious as it's described as a snake in a bamboo, it's a quick path up or down.  So many, many people choose to practice within the TB traditions without taking on the more intensive practices and vows.

As for tantra in general, it's my personal opinion that Medicine Buddha practice or Green Tara practice, for example, could be just fine for an entire lifetime.  And Mahayana practices could be plenty for a lifetime.  But different people are suited to different kinds of practice.  Some choose higher tantra and it suits them.

So to answer the OP directly, vajrayana is a form of Mahayana but is uncommon Mahayana and it contains specific means and methods to progress on the path.  But a vajrayana student doesn't abandon the vows of a bodhisattva, for example.  So there are connections and commonalities with the Mahayana.

And vajrayana not only comes out of Tibet, but Japan as well. Shingon is an esoteric form of Buddhism which uses tantric methods, as I understand it.

I hope this helps  :)

Kindly,
Laura
Pertaining to my request for TMingyur to make a distinction? not really. Everything you mentioned is pretty much basic Vajrayana, and I am not contending with this at all. I am asking for TMingyur to explain why they are not the same.

TMingyur

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 11:23:42 pm »
Pertaining to my request for TMingyur to make a distinction? not really. Everything you mentioned is pretty much basic Vajrayana, and I am not contending with this at all. I am asking for TMingyur to explain why they are not the same.

Oh sorry for my not responding. I assume you are referring to this:
Quote
If you mean "in sadhana practice" it is not the paramitas of sutra (as taught in sutra).
Now as far as the teachings (i.e. the instructions) are concerned they cannot be the same, since one is sadhana and the other is sutra.
And as far as the perceptible manifestations of practice is concerned these are obviously also not the same. Because perceptible manifestation of practice according to sutra is not perceptible manifestation of sadhana practice.
And as far as the mental quality of the practitioner is concerned this cannot be assessed. That may vary intra-individually and inter-individually both within sadhana and within sutra practice.

Kind regards

Offline Ngawang Drolma

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 11:32:09 pm »
This is theory, but was it ever practiced this way?
No ... and actually it wouldn't make much sense the way I have stated it because having attained the qualities why then practice vajrayana? Having perfectly attained  the qualities would IMO mean to be a Buddha. But vajrayana is actually meant to speed up the process to buddhahood.
Considering that the method of the paramitas are the cause for a buddha's form body (wisdom being the cause for the wisdom body) vajrayana actually renders the method side of the paramitas (as taught in sutra) superfluous or at least partially superfluous (there may be different interpretations in the different schools).
But considering "form body" "Wisdom body" (nirmana-/samboga-/dharmakaya) or "effect vehicle or th vehicle of skillful means" the vocabulary and the reasoning in the context of vajrayana gets more and more "un-common". So I better leave it at that ...

Yeppers  :)
It's not that sutrayana is just tossed away (it's always important), but I feel that Tmingyur's explanation is right on.

Kind regards
Laura
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 11:33:50 pm by LauraJ »

Chokyi Wangpo

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Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 12:21:03 am »
Pertaining to my request for TMingyur to make a distinction? not really. Everything you mentioned is pretty much basic Vajrayana, and I am not contending with this at all. I am asking for TMingyur to explain why they are not the same.

Oh sorry for my not responding. I assume you are referring to this:
Quote
If you mean "in sadhana practice" it is not the paramitas of sutra (as taught in sutra).
Now as far as the teachings (i.e. the instructions) are concerned they cannot be the same, since one is sadhana and the other is sutra.
And as far as the perceptible manifestations of practice is concerned these are obviously also not the same. Because perceptible manifestation of practice according to sutra is not perceptible manifestation of sadhana practice.
And as far as the mental quality of the practitioner is concerned this cannot be assessed. That may vary intra-individually and inter-individually both within sadhana and within sutra practice.

Kind regards

Yep that is what I was looking for. Thank You.

 


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