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Schools of Buddhism => Theravada => Topic started by: Arkena on May 30, 2017, 12:30:39 pm

Title: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Arkena on May 30, 2017, 12:30:39 pm
5 aggregates define things like my taste, sense of smell, parts of my mind etc but i dont understand how emotions relate to us in the model of the 5 aggregates?

Also why are the 5 aggregates introduced here in section 7 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second)

In the same topic as the first noble truth?

Also are the 5 clinging agreggates just experiences that may cause us to develop addiction?

 :pray:



Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: PuerAzaelis on May 30, 2017, 07:35:21 pm
... emotions ... the first noble truth?
IMHO:

I see, hear, think, etc. I like it, I hate it or it makes me bored.

That in itself isn't that important. What's important is that nothing lasts. Nothing can be maintained. What I like disappears or dies. What I don't like appears again.

So I suffer.

Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Arkena on May 30, 2017, 09:56:13 pm
.....IF i cling to it in ignorance.

Wish things like 4 noble truths were more verbose as are things that go unsaid or assumptions made that are not written down.

 :pray:
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: stillpointdancer on May 31, 2017, 02:13:01 am
5 aggregates define things like my taste, sense of smell, parts of my mind etc but i dont understand how emotions relate to us in the model of the 5 aggregates?

Also why are the 5 aggregates introduced here in section 7 [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url])
In the same topic as the first noble truth?
Also are the 5 clinging agreggates just experiences that may cause us to develop addiction?
 :pray:

The idea is that we can't get to the truth through our senses, nor through feelings, thoughts, or any form of conscious behavior. You have to get beyond everything to finally understand the kind of suffering the Buddha talked about, and to be released from it. It's not about addiction, but about clinging to stuff in such a way that it holds us back. 
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Arkena on May 31, 2017, 06:08:37 am
Its funny that you posted that today stillpointdancer as just today i realised my buddhism had become too intellectual...

The words and meaning point to the truth they arent the truth....the truth goes beyond the words...
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: pp_lovely on May 31, 2017, 08:33:54 am
I will try to answer your question one by one.

The 5 aggregates are not the same topic as the noble truth BUT they are part of it.

Our clinging to these 5 aggregates are the CAUSE of sufferings.
They are related to our emotions because our emotions are one of the aggregates.

I would have to say that you get it all wrong, we do not develop addictions because of the clinging aggregates. We already have addictions in the form of clinging aggregates in which we are not aware of and this is why the buddha has given lights to us to be aware of this truth and stop the addiction for good.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Arkena on May 31, 2017, 03:21:11 pm
"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as clinging-aggregate."

— SN 22.48

From the above I conclude that a clinging aggregate is a "form" that "is clingable", ie: a physical thing that we can become attached to.

Quote
I would have to say that you get it all wrong, we do not develop addictions because of the clinging aggregates. We already have addictions in the form of clinging aggregates in which we are not aware of and this is why the buddha has given lights to us to be aware of this truth and stop the addiction for good.

I dunno, your explanation sounds accurate in as far as some phenomena eg: clinging to loved ones (and something i had not considered ie: pre existing addicitons), but in regards to external substances eg: drugs, I would say the addictions are not pre existing,
wouldnt you agree???
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: PuerAzaelis on May 31, 2017, 06:39:30 pm
As long as things are still becoming, I'm still grasping.
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: francis on June 01, 2017, 03:01:59 am
5 aggregates define things like my taste, sense of smell, parts of my mind etc but i dont understand how emotions relate to us in the model of the 5 aggregates?

Also why are the 5 aggregates introduced here in section 7 [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url])

In the same topic as the first noble truth?

Also are the 5 clinging agreggates just experiences that may cause us to develop addiction?

 :pray:


Hi Arkena,

The suttas can be difficult to understand if you don’t have a teacher. So you might want to try some modern commentaries, like an introduction to the aggregates The Five Skandhas, (https://www.thoughtco.com/the-skandhas-450192) to help you get started.

We have three feelings (vedana) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedan%C4%81). There are pleasant feelings, unpleasant feelings, or neutral feelings. Neutral feelings are neither pleasant nor unpleasant. As human beings we crave things that make us feel good, however it doesn’t matter how much stuff or sex or drugs or money or food or whatever we have, our craving only lead to more cravings. 

Another way to look at this is through the 12 links of the Nidana chain. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas) The link between vedana (feelings) and Tanha (thirst or craving) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%E1%B9%87h%C4%81) is especially important because it is one of the links that can be broken and lead us away from cyclic existence.

If you want to read the suttas on the four noble truths, the aggregates and non-self, I would suggest trying the Three Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel017.html)

They are the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion SN 56.11, the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: the Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic SN 22.59 and the Aditta-pariyaya-sutta: The Fire Sermon SN 35.28.

They are reputed to be the first sermons by the Buddha.

With metta :)
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Pixie on June 01, 2017, 10:37:46 pm
Hi Arkena,

I think its less confusing to refer to the  five aggregates as " the aggregates of clinging" rather than  "the clinging aggregates".

You might find that Reading from page 5 of  Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's "The ABC's of Buddhism" will be helpful.

Excerpt:

Quote

You need to know about the five aggregates (khandha in Pali or skhanda in Sanskrit).They are important because attachment is attachment to these five khandha. The first khandha is this body. When the body is in its function, the ignorant mind attaches to it as“I” in some cases and “mine” in other cases. Then we can see someone get angry with his body. He can regard it as “He” - “himself.” Or, in another case, he will regard it as “his” - “his body.” This is the first khandha, the aggregate of corporeality (rupa - khandha).

The second khandha is feeling (vedana-khandha).When there is any kind of feeling in the mind, the ignorant mind regards it, or becomes attached to and regards it, as “my” feeling. It is regarded as “I” or “mine,” which are the same attachment.
.
The third khandha is called perception (sanna –khanda). This is to perceive something as this, as that, as these or as those; as “my happiness” or “my suffering,” as “good” or “bad.”In some cases, the perception by the mind is attached to as the “I” who perceives. In other cases, perception is attached to as “my” -”my perception.” You can understand that the same thing can be attached to in two ways as the doer and as the done.

Next, the fourth khandha, or aggregate of clinging, is called sankhara-khandha. Sankhara in this case has a special meaning. Literally it means to form, but here it specifically means “to form” in a mental way, that is, to think. As a verb, sankhara means to condition, to give rise to or to cause. As a noun, it means “formation,” either the act of forming or the state of having been formed or both. Here, we use the meaning “to think,” because to think is to give rise to or to cause the conception that is taking place now in the mind of the ignorant one. One attaches to it as “I think” or as “my thought.” You should try  to notice this and consider it for yourself. See attachment working in these two ways.

Now to the fifth or last khandha. The consciousness aggregate (vinnana-khandha) is to know all things that come to be in contact with eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. The ignorant one will attach to consciousness, or the body of consciousness, as “I” - “I” who is conscious. And at another time he will attach to it as “my consciousness.” These are two ways.

Altogether, we have five groups of attachment. You can see that we become attached to many things, both outside and inside; attaching to them and grasping at them. All this is done mentally, as “I” or “my.” These are ignorant concepts, not the real thing. In all cases, it is only through ignorance that the conception of “I” or “my” arises towards things.




https://dhammatalks.net/Books6/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_ABC_of_Buddhism.pdf (https://dhammatalks.net/Books6/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_ABC_of_Buddhism.pdf)



_/|\_
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Arkena on June 04, 2017, 08:46:13 pm
Ty Pixie and francis, will study this  :pray:
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Spiny Norman on June 08, 2017, 01:36:37 am
"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?
"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as clinging-aggregate."

— SN 22.48
From the above I conclude that a clinging aggregate is a "form" that "is clingable", ie: a physical thing that we can become attached to.


Yes, it looks like the clinging aggregates are a subset of the aggregates in total, which represent our experience.  And as the First Noble Truth explains,  dukkha = clinging aggregates.

An interesting implication here is that there are aspects of our experience that we don't cling to, what might be called "non-clinging aggregates".

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html)
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Spiny Norman on June 08, 2017, 01:39:14 am
5 aggregates define things like my taste, sense of smell, parts of my mind etc but i dont understand how emotions relate to us in the model of the 5 aggregates?

Also why are the 5 aggregates introduced here in section 7 [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url])

In the same topic as the first noble truth?

Also are the 5 clinging agreggates just experiences that may cause us to develop addiction?

 :pray:


The aggregates are really a model of the way we experience stuff, a way of analysing experience.  An alternative model of experience is the 6 sense bases, that's the one I usually work with ( sensations, sights, sounds, flavours, odours, thought and moods ).
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Spiny Norman on June 08, 2017, 03:26:06 am
Our clinging to these 5 aggregates are the CAUSE of sufferings.


Yes, and one approach to reducing clinging is to develop insight into the transience and insubstantiality of the aggregates.  I find the Phena Sutta helpful, it looks like a precursor of the Heart Sutra.

"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
   this has been taught
   by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
   to whoever sees them
   appropriately."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html)
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: ground on June 20, 2017, 05:01:44 am
Also are the 5 clinging agreggates just experiences that may cause us to develop addiction?
Since there can't be a self that clings the agents that cling are the aggregates.
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: AlwaysDayAfterYesterday on June 20, 2017, 05:20:22 am
5 aggregates define things like my taste, sense of smell, parts of my mind etc but i dont understand how emotions relate to us in the model of the 5 aggregates?

Also why are the 5 aggregates introduced here in section 7 [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html#second[/url])

In the same topic as the first noble truth?

Also are the 5 clinging agreggates just experiences that may cause us to develop addiction?

 :pray:


Connect Suffering to the better definition of the word Dukkah.  Dukkah is more like a wheel out of balance.  Consider your bike and the spokes needing to have balanced tension.  Watch a video on how to balance a bike wheel.  Read Tao 11 and consider why the emptiness at the wheel hub is the usefulness of the wheel.  Look at the other comparisons in Tao 11. 

From this, see suffering in life as the Zen aphorism:  1) Sickness and Medicine cancel each other.  2)  The same hand that gives sickness also gives medicine. 

The unstated portion of these aphorisms is to see that YOU are the hand.  Once you balance the wheel of dharma for each of the senses, your wheel functions as it was intended to function.  Balanced.  Middle way.  Suffering moved to Joy through cultivation and work.  Harvest 

Now look at a real-world example.

Fatigue (Sickenss)

Rest (Medicine). 

What causes sickness?  Your choice and cause and effect.  Who brings you medicine?  You.  If you balance your work to your rest, you find a higher truth from Suffering, thereby using the prerequisite of suffering to pass this on to joy in balance. 

BLISS (Virtue)

Fatigue is the sickness caused by your own hand.  Rest is the medicine.  Bliss is a higher state you can attain with cultivation of a path (The Way mentioned in Tao), as well as the eight-fold path.  Take each of the eight ways and balance them by finding the mean.  This is the golden mean of Confucius, the Golden mean of Greek Philosophy and the Arete of Aristotle. 

I have attached a list of my own view below.  It carries this into the Fruits of the Spirit found in Galatians 5 of the Bible, or the way to overcome law found in Galatians 3.  All of the aphorisms were then crafted after I found the essence of the three aphorisms I included at the top.  I used them as templates for the rest.  You can make your own from the list to improve on my own view.  I eventually want to write capping verses to complement each aphorism. 

Yes, I just used Hebrew, Tao, Zen and Buddhism along with Greek, with a bit of Confucius to add flavor to the soup.  If you leave any one relative out, you miss the Rainbow by its treasure on either side.  Bridge the gap and you see the Absolute truth.  Your hand is the Ox (Aleph / Strength) you gain as you progress from 1 to 10. 

Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Spiny Norman on June 20, 2017, 05:27:32 am
Since there can't be a self that clings the agents that cling are the aggregates.


Interesting point.  There is a distinction in the suttas between clinging aggregates and non-clinging aggregates.  Clinging aggregates = dukkha, so presumably the clinging aggregates would cease when dukkha ceases.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html)
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: Solodris on June 20, 2017, 06:04:46 am
If the agent of the aggregate is fire, then by conduct the destination is to be consumed by fire.
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: AlwaysDayAfterYesterday on June 20, 2017, 06:17:54 am
If the agent of the aggregate is fire, then by conduct the destination is to be consumed by fire.

Diamond
Title: Re: 5 agreggates and emotions
Post by: ground on June 20, 2017, 07:40:10 am
Since there can't be a self that clings the agents that cling are the aggregates.


Interesting point.  There is a distinction in the suttas between clinging aggregates and non-clinging aggregates.  Clinging aggregates = dukkha, so presumably the clinging aggregates would cease when dukkha ceases.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html[/url])

Exactly. Initially there is dukkha and the clinging aggregates. Then there is nirvana with remainder when clinging has ceased.  What remains? The aggregates. Then there is nirvana without remainder when even the aggregates have ceased.
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