Author Topic: A Question about Stream Winners #1.  (Read 1934 times)

Offline vinasp

  • Member
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« on: May 08, 2010, 01:40:35 pm »
Hi everyone,

 Stream-winners are said to have a maximum of seven more rebirths. So if someone becomes a stream-winner and dies twenty years later, and is then reborn as a human, the following questions arise:

1. Are they still a stream-winner, or do they start again from square one?
   a) If they are still a stream-winner then how do they know this?
   b) What prevents them from trying to become a stream-winner again, which would be      impossible?
   c) If they have to start again, does this not contradict the idea that these states are permanent?

2. If they are still a stream-winner then:
    a) Does this mean that some people have less than ten fetters?
    b) If so, then how can the noble eightfold path always have four stages?

 Best wishes, Vincent.

Offline TongueTied

  • Member
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2010, 04:44:04 pm »
According to traditional dogma, the person starts over at every rebirth, but is guaranteed each life to reach at least the maximum previous level of attainment.

(a) They wouldn't know unless someone special like a Buddha told them, or if they can accurately recall past lives.
(b) Why would it be impossible?
(c) Why would the states be permanent?  No state is permanent.  As in, one of the marks of existence is impermanence.  I couldn't care less if you managed to find some scripture somewhere that says otherwise.  The people who write and translate these things are fallible.  And often they are intended pedagogically at the expense of logical consistency.

Trying to make absolute sense of all the stuff you read in the scriptures is not a productive activity.  I have a secret for you: it doesn't make sense.  It actually doesn't.  The very basic tenets of Buddhism are paradoxical in nature.  This is due to the attempt to describe nonduality in terms of dualities.  That motivation of wanting everything to come together and make perfect sense is just not going to be fulfilled.  It's impossible.  And that holds for all experience-based knowledge.  So where to we look for fulfillment?  Look closely.  It's in every moment, every sensation.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

  • Member
  • Posts: 4471
  • May all beings live rightly and harmoniously.
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2010, 09:09:57 pm »
Tongue Tied Wrote:  "I couldn't care less if you managed to find some scripture somewhere that says otherwise.  The people who write and translate these things are fallible.  And often they are intended pedagogically at the expense of logical consistency."

Again, with deepest respect and all due honor to your opinions:

Thanks for sharing your opinion and frustrations.  But you are in The Theravada Forum, which honors The Dhamma, and revere's Buddha's teachings with the assistance of other Theravadans, our sangha.  In these, many of us have taken refuge. 

My concern is for the way that you state your opinions in this forum designed for study of what is written in Buddha's teachings.  If you don't see things as Buddha does, that is your practice, and you are welcome to it.  However such criticisms are extremely rude and disrespectful when placed in this forum to those of us who do see them as relevant to our practices.  We are all trying to learn herein through study of Buddha's teaching in these suttas for which you show such obvious disdain.

In this forum, The Theravada Forum, we encourage each other in this pursuit, not denigrate each other's efforts.  This is not The Theravada Cage Fighting Forum.

If you wish to attack Buddhism and Buddhist teachings, or The Theravada, then at least have the respect to take your complaints to The Danger Zone, where such disrespect is at least marginally tolerated.

The Theravadan Forum is for study of Buddha's teachings documented in The Tipitaka.

Best wishes, and as always with the deepest respect.

_/\_Ron

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tipitaka.htm

According to traditional dogma, the person starts over at every rebirth, but is guaranteed each life to reach at least the maximum previous level of attainment.

(a) They wouldn't know unless someone special like a Buddha told them, or if they can accurately recall past lives.
(b) Why would it be impossible?
(c) Why would the states be permanent?  No state is permanent.  As in, one of the marks of existence is impermanence.  I couldn't care less if you managed to find some scripture somewhere that says otherwise.  The people who write and translate these things are fallible.  And often they are intended pedagogically at the expense of logical consistency.

Trying to make absolute sense of all the stuff you read in the scriptures is not a productive activity.  I have a secret for you: it doesn't make sense.  It actually doesn't.  The very basic tenets of Buddhism are paradoxical in nature.  This is due to the attempt to describe nonduality in terms of dualities.  That motivation of wanting everything to come together and make perfect sense is just not going to be fulfilled.  It's impossible.  And that holds for all experience-based knowledge.  So where to we look for fulfillment?  Look closely.  It's in every moment, every sensation.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline TongueTied

  • Member
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2010, 10:21:47 pm »
Vinasp,

The guy above me thinks my reply was offensive.  I promise you that it was not meant in that way at all.  My apologies if it comes across as offensive to more people than just him.

Offline lankaman

  • Member
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 12:03:45 am »
Hi everyone,

1. Are they still a stream-winner, or do they start again from square one?
   a) If they are still a stream-winner then how do they know this?
   b) What prevents them from trying to become a stream-winner again, which would be      impossible?
   c) If they have to start again, does this not contradict the idea that these states are permanent?

2. If they are still a stream-winner then:
    a) Does this mean that some people have less than ten fetters?
    b) If so, then how can the noble eightfold path always have four stages?

 Best wishes, Vincent.

1. they don't have to do so.
a) he won't be able to know that "i'm not a lay person and i'm in this level.." as such unless he has a Jaathi-smarana (recall previous births). But the understanding of Aarya people  cannot be compared with the knowledge and understanding we gather as lay people (from books, experiment, logic ..) Also he may not be of much different from other people if born as a human.

b) i think it has something to do with their understanding of the world. Some Bikkhus say it results in a broad understanding of the self once you become a stream winner. They might contemplate by themselves and attain next level?

c) i wonder if it is right to take them as states. even the nirvana is not a state of something.

In Theravada the mind(consciousness) is explained as a stream of citta and it flows all the time including death and birth. In that sense death and rebirth happens all the time. It seems the common knowledge we gather disappears from death but there can be certain information passed through the citta. but i'm trying to be consistent without the understanding !
I am the first mistake. The rest is the next one!

Offline retrofuturist

  • Member
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
    • Dhamma Wheel (Theravada forum)
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2010, 05:13:13 am »
Greetings Vincent,

So if someone becomes a stream-winner and dies twenty years later, and is then reborn as a human, the following questions arise:
The questions shouldn't arise, because "if a monk is absorbed in speculation about the other world, then his mind is enthralled" (MN 48).

Will ones speculation on such matters alter what actually transpires?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Offline vinasp

  • Member
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2010, 03:30:13 pm »
Hi Tongue Tied,

Quote: "According to traditional dogma, the person starts over at every rebirth, but is guaranteed each life to reach at least the maximum previous level of attainment."
 V: Interesting .... but the 'traditional dogma' of which school? I have only studied the Sutta Pitaka myself, so I do not even know what the later Theravada tradition would say about this.

Quote: "(a) They wouldn't know unless someone special like a Buddha told them, or if they can accurately recall past lives. (b) Why would it be impossible?"
 V: My questions assumed that the first three fetters, once eliminated, do not re-appear again.

Quote:"(c) Why would the states be permanent?  No state is permanent.  As in, one of the marks of existence is impermanence."
 V: I agree. I should not have used the word 'permanent'.

 For me, what you say about trying to make sense of the teachings is very interesting. I would like to discuss it, but it is, perhaps, off-topic here. A thread for discussing that should, I think, be in the 'Danger Zone'.

 Best wishes, Vincent.

Offline vinasp

  • Member
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2010, 03:53:01 pm »
Hi Bodhisatta2010,

 I feel that I should take some of the blame here. I should have seen that those questions could be disturbing to some people.

 Best wishes, Vincent.

Offline vinasp

  • Member
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2010, 04:12:15 pm »
Hi TongueTied,

 I was not in the least offended. My position is close to yours ( I think). The teachings are difficult to grasp in the correct way ( simile of the water snake). I think that the teachings do make sense, but only by understanding why they do not make sense ( if that makes sense!).

 Best wishes, Vincent.

Offline Ngawang Drolma

  • Member
  • Posts: 1259
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2010, 10:17:16 pm »
Tongue Tied Wrote:  "I couldn't care less if you managed to find some scripture somewhere that says otherwise.  The people who write and translate these things are fallible.  And often they are intended pedagogically at the expense of logical consistency."

Again, with deepest respect and all due honor to your opinions:

Thanks for sharing your opinion and frustrations.  But you are in The Theravada Forum, which honors The Dhamma, and revere's Buddha's teachings with the assistance of other Theravadans, our sangha.  In these, many of us have taken refuge.  

My concern is for the way that you state your opinions in this forum designed for study of what is written in Buddha's teachings.  If you don't see things as Buddha does, that is your practice, and you are welcome to it.  However such criticisms are extremely rude and disrespectful when placed in this forum to those of us who do see them as relevant to our practices.  We are all trying to learn herein through study of Buddha's teaching in these suttas for which you show such obvious disdain.

In this forum, The Theravada Forum, we encourage each other in this pursuit, not denigrate each other's efforts.  This is not The Theravada Cage Fighting Forum.

If you wish to attack Buddhism and Buddhist teachings, or The Theravada, then at least have the respect to take your complaints to The Danger Zone, where such disrespect is at least marginally tolerated.

The Theravadan Forum is for study of Buddha's teachings documented in The Tipitaka.

Best wishes, and as always with the deepest respect.

_/\_Ron

Hi Ron

If you have concerns regarding the manner in which people state their opinions or the nature in which the Buddha's Dharma is being discussed, please use the "report" feature which is available at the bottom of every post.

It is not required in this forum, or any other, that members have taken refuge or speak in a manner which supports refuge vows.  Members at Freesangha are functioning at various levels of Buddhist practice amd study, and we welcome everyone and encourage people to speak freely according to their understandings.

As I said, the "report" feature is at your disposal for material that you may perceive to be inappropriate.

Thanks,
Laura
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 10:20:31 pm by Ngawang Drolma, Reason: Corrected spelling error »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

  • Member
  • Posts: 4471
  • May all beings live rightly and harmoniously.
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 05:55:33 am »

Thank you, Laura.

Will use "the button" in the future, when and if I ever deem it necessary.  So far it hasn't been necessary, but you never know.

My appologies to everyone on the board for my lack of skill in communicating in compliance with Right Speech and The TOS.  I will strive to improve.  Please feel free to "use the button" in accordance with Laura's, or any other moderator's concerns when you feel it necessary.

_/\_Ron
Tongue Tied Wrote:  "I couldn't care less if you managed to find some scripture somewhere that says otherwise.  The people who write and translate these things are fallible.  And often they are intended pedagogically at the expense of logical consistency."

Again, with deepest respect and all due honor to your opinions:

Thanks for sharing your opinion and frustrations.  But you are in The Theravada Forum, which honors The Dhamma, and revere's Buddha's teachings with the assistance of other Theravadans, our sangha.  In these, many of us have taken refuge.  

My concern is for the way that you state your opinions in this forum designed for study of what is written in Buddha's teachings.  If you don't see things as Buddha does, that is your practice, and you are welcome to it.  However such criticisms are extremely rude and disrespectful when placed in this forum to those of us who do see them as relevant to our practices.  We are all trying to learn herein through study of Buddha's teaching in these suttas for which you show such obvious disdain.

In this forum, The Theravada Forum, we encourage each other in this pursuit, not denigrate each other's efforts.  This is not The Theravada Cage Fighting Forum.

If you wish to attack Buddhism and Buddhist teachings, or The Theravada, then at least have the respect to take your complaints to The Danger Zone, where such disrespect is at least marginally tolerated.

The Theravadan Forum is for study of Buddha's teachings documented in The Tipitaka.

Best wishes, and as always with the deepest respect.

_/\_Ron

Hi Ron

If you have concerns regarding the manner in which people state their opinions or the nature in which the Buddha's Dharma is being discussed, please use the "report" feature which is available at the bottom of every post.

It is not required in this forum, or any other, that members have taken refuge or speak in a manner which supports refuge vows.  Members at Freesangha are functioning at various levels of Buddhist practice amd study, and we welcome everyone and encourage people to speak freely according to their understandings.

As I said, the "report" feature is at your disposal for material that you may perceive to be inappropriate.

Thanks,
Laura
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 09:43:26 am »
I would like to point out perhaps the obvious at this point.  There is no issue, it is all the meeting of various mind projections, but I seriously doubt any of it is personal and if it is it is based in ignorance so no need for upsets.  We should use these times to look at people through their intentions more than through their actions.  Ron means well, TT means well, we just clash in our assorted levels of ignorance.  Just take a deep breath, step back and think of yourself as a child in the playground having a small altercation.  Is anything truly impacted by such squabble?  Hardly... so maybe instead of feeding the perceived slight, feed it love knowing that your peer meant the best, perhaps came across clumsy, but really, we're all just wanting to awaken a bit more, be a little less insensitive to the other, let go of a little more self-importance, no?  This is after all practice, no?  

I just wanted to present this opportunity to see it differently than "he upset me so I don't want to interact anymore"... there is opportunity here, we cannot cut off what bothers us anymore than we can cut off our own stomach for having diarrhea.  If another bothers us, we should take a step back and see through the bother.  The person bothering us won't go away, but how we view it could shift.  Instead of viewing difference as threatening try to look at it as exposing our self-importance.  We should thank the Rons and TongueTied's of the world for being so wonderfully there.  Whether ignorant or aware, Ron, I know you care a great deal about others, and when you get irked, you just want the best for everyone here.  I know the same about TongueTied from personal interactions.  I see this accident as just a stumbling onto your own prides.  It's ok, take a deep breath, and take what you felt and think the other person felt this too.  And then think of how you would feel if it was your child or your parent.  Instead of getting upset, you'll get gently corrective.  You might let slide your nasties and just feel more kindness for the other.  None of this is bad for you.

It's important to remember that every person behind each post is a breathing, living person no different than you...  If we look at our peers more through their intentions and less through their words which may be clumsy or not perfect in conveying the intentions, we give each other a break and room to be wrong, ignorant, and have a chance to see our own ignorance for what it is.  Perhaps it's completely obvious, but I would like to point it out like I'm Miz Captain Obvious.  At least, this is how I personally build patience and kindness.  Humanize what's upsetting you.

:headbow:
love always,
Ogyen.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 09:57:05 am by 0gyen Chodzom »
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline Ron-the-Elder

  • Member
  • Posts: 4471
  • May all beings live rightly and harmoniously.
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 10:11:09 am »

55. Sotapatti-samyutta — Stream-entry

source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline aquason

  • Member
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: A Question about Stream Winners #1.
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 03:20:00 am »
Hi everyone,

 Stream-winners are said to have a maximum of seven more rebirths. So if someone becomes a stream-winner and dies twenty years later, and is then reborn as a human, the following questions arise:

1. Are they still a stream-winner, or do they start again from square one?
   a) If they are still a stream-winner then how do they know this?
   b) What prevents them from trying to become a stream-winner again, which would be      impossible?
   c) If they have to start again, does this not contradict the idea that these states are permanent?

2. If they are still a stream-winner then:
    a) Does this mean that some people have less than ten fetters?
    b) If so, then how can the noble eightfold path always have four stages?

 Best wishes, Vincent.

Still at least a Stream Winner

By Mirror of Dhamma one can recognize that one is a stream winner.

Here is a quote with the Mirror of Dhamma from Long Discourse of the Buddha #16, Great Discourse about Final Nibbana.


Quote
The Four Specific Attainments
6. Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and, after greeting him respectfully, sat down at one side. And he said to the Blessed One: "Here in Nadika, Lord, there have passed away the bhikkhu Salha and the bhikkhuni Nanda. Likewise there have passed away the layman Sudatta and the laywoman Sujata; likewise the layman Kakudha, Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda. What is their destiny, Lord? What is their future state?"

7. "The bhikkhu Salha, Ananda, through the destruction of the taints in this very lifetime has attained to the taint-free deliverance of mind and deliverance through wisdom, having directly known and realized it by himself. [17]

"The bhikkhuni Nanda, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities) and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

"The layman Sudatta, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters (self-belief, doubt, and faith in the efficacy of rituals and observances), and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, has become a once-returner and is bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

"The laywoman Sujata, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters has become a stream-enterer, and is safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

"The layman Kakudha, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities), and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

"So it is with Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda, and with more than fifty laymen in Nadika. More than ninety laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters, and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, have become once-returners and are bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

"More than five hundred laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the complete destruction of the three fetters have become stream-enterers, and are safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

The Mirror of the Dhamma
8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?

"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration — the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'

"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"



After stream winner can become once-returner, and on to Never Returner, and monastics on to Arahantship.

All formations are impermanent, but Nibbana is lasting supreme bliss.

Some have less than 10 fetters.

Noble 8 fold path is now fortunately preserved in the world. Now one has the opportunity to go for it.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 03:25:35 am by aquason »

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal