Anangana sutta

[lankaman]

Check the following extracts from Anangana Sutta. Who are these four persons?
http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Anangana_Sutta

"Here, a certain person with blemish does not know, as it really is, 'there is blemish in me.' A certain person with blemish knows, as it really is, 'there is blemish in me.' A certain person without blemish does not know as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me.' A certain person without blemish knows as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me.' Of the two persons with blemish, the one who does not know as it really is, 'there is blemish in me' is the inferior The one who knows as it really is, 'there is blemish in me' is the superior one."

According to Venerable Sariputta the person who do not know about the blemish (angana) will fall in to 'trap' of agreeable signs etc. Does that mean an Arhant might lose the attainment? How do you interpret this sutta?

[lankaman]

sorry there is a missing part:

"...Of the two persons without blemish, the one who does not know, as it really is, 'there is no blemish' is the inferior one. The one who knows as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me' is the superior. "


"...Friend, this person without blemish, who does not know, as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me,' attending to an agreeable sign, greed would overcome his mind, hate and delusion would overcome his mind and he would die with a defiled mind. Just like a bronze bowl bought from a shop or smithy clean and pure, the owner would not partake in it, would let it lie with dirt, then as time goes, that bronze bowl would be more and more dusty and stained in the same manner this person without blemish, who does not know, as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me,' attending to an agreeable sign greed would overcome his mind, hate and delusion would overcome his mind and he would die with a defiled mind."

[Optimus Prime]

Check the following extracts from Anangana Sutta. Who are these four persons?
http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Anangana_Sutta
Does that mean an Arhant might lose the attainment?

Not at all.  This Sutta says nothing about an Arhat losing their attainment (which is not possible anyway).

The meaning is simple.  It just tells of the types of people who have faults.  And of these people who have faults, if you're aware of that you have faults (flaws in your character and personality and thoughts and emotional patterns), then this is a better position to be in than not realizing that you have faults.

Why?

Because if you have faults and if:
-  You KNOW that you have faults - then when the fault arises, you can do something about it to counteract it and overcome it. 
-  You do NOT realize that you have faults, when the fault overcomes you, you'll be none-the-wiser and can easily get caught up in it.

Imagine a novice driver, who doesn't realize that they are hopeless at driving - they'll drive whatever way that they want, however dangerous they want and they will still be thinking that they are driving well.  Not a good position to be in because they can end up killing/injuring someone or themselves with this sort of thinking.

Imagine a novice driver who realizes that they're hopeless - this person will realize that yes, I am hopeless at present, so I've got to be careful lest I injure or hurt someone.  Maybe I can practice a bit more and take a few more lessons and see what I can learn more from the driving instructor.  This person will likely progress better.

[lankaman]

Thanks for the reply. This explanation and example suits to the first two persons mentioned in the sutta. Even I don't believe arahant would later sully the mind. The question is raised as a reason for some Buddhist sects to propose the above view on 'arahantship' (misleading word IMO). but let me emphasize the relevant parts again.

"..there are four persons in the world, what four?.."

"... a certain person with blemish does not know, as it really is, 'there is blemish in me.'
     A certain person with blemish knows, as it really is, 'there is blemish in me.'
     A certain person without blemish does not know as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me.'
     A certain person without blemish knows as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me.'

The problem is about the third person who is without blemish and does not know as it really is, 'there is no blemish in me.'

Arahant who is without any kind of blemish must know that there is no blemish in mind. But it seems arahant is not included in the above 4 categories. These four categories meant for the laymen.

unlike in the wiki translation the meaning of angana is not just blemish but "strong defilement" therefore still there can be minor ones in the third & fourth persons.

[Optimus Prime]

in the wiki translation the meaning of angana is not just blemish but "strong defilement" therefore still there can be minor ones in the third & fourth persons.

Good point.

[catmoon]

Logic time.

An arahant is not a fully perfected Buddha, therefore there is a blemish in him. Presumably he would be aware of this.

Also, one of the cases seems impossible. A person lacking blemish could not be unaware if it, since the unawareness would itself consitute a blemish.

[Monkey Mind]

I don't think that "person without blemish" is the same thing as "arahant". I'm not sure if that is what you are implying, but otherwise I miss the connection. A child might be "without blemish", but a child has not done the work to become an arahant.

[catmoon]

I don't think that "person without blemish" is the same thing as "arahant". I'm not sure if that is what you are implying, but otherwise I miss the connection. A child might be "without blemish", but a child has not done the work to become an arahant.

A child without blemish? I'll believe that when I see it.

[lankaman]

I also believe arahant is less than the blessed one in wisdom but dont think anangana sutta implies arhants. The discussion between venerable Sariputta and Moggallana in the latter part of the sutta indicates about misbehaving monks.
Then there is Sandaka sutta which sheds some light on the matter.
http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Sandaka_Sutta

Here the word angana is used by venerable Ananda
"..Again, the bhikkhu dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, and mindfulness purified with equanimity abides in the fourth jhana. Sandaka, when the noble disciple of the Teacher has attained to that noble distinction, he has wisely lived the holy life and even while doing so is convinced of it as merit.

When the mind is concentrated, pure, free from minor defilements, is malleable workable not disturbed, he directs the mind for the knowledge of previous births. Recollects the manifold previous births, one birth,.."

Here the english translation is minor defilements while in both suttas the pali is angana. So it is reasonable to think angana means uncontrolled defilements (via some form of practice).

[Spiny le Norman]

I don't think that "person without blemish" is the same thing as "arahant".

I agree.  An Arahant is free from blemishes. 

Spiny

[Blue Garuda]

Could it have something to do with the difference between 'right view with taints' and 'right view' which leads to 'right effort'? 

[lankaman]

Could it have something to do with the difference between 'right view with taints' and 'right view' which leads to 'right effort'? 

Could you pls add more detail on that ?
 

[Blue Garuda]

Could it have something to do with the difference between 'right view with taints' and 'right view' which leads to 'right effort'? 

Could you pls add more detail on that ?
 

I was really asking the question more than being able to answer it, but it seemed to me that the language of 'blemishes' and 'taints' with respect to individuals did fit pretty well with the Buddha's words on Right View which is tainted and Right View which is pure.  A person with pure Right View has understood and through mindfulness has eliminated their 'blemishes', whilst one with Taints has yet to understand that he has such blemishes, is not mindful, but is able to act with merit nevertheless.

From: MN 117 Mahācattārīsaka Sutta - The Great Forty

http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitaka/transcribed-suttas/majjhima-nikaya/81-mn-117-mahcattrsaka-sutta-the-great-forty.html

''7. “And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realized for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions.

8. “And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

[lankaman]

The right view(or the others) with taints and without taints seems to be a similar line of thought. But I don't think it is an exact match.

[Blue Garuda]

The right view(or the others) with taints and without taints seems to be a similar line of thought. But I don't think it is an exact match.

Not exact, no,  it was just brought to mind by the wording of knowing a blemish when the mind sees a phenomenon 'as it really is'.

I would think any Arhant would have that awareness and thus not be beguiled by samsaric 'agreeable' signs - so would not develop desirous attachment to phenomena.