Author Topic: Craving for Non-Existence  (Read 3388 times)

Offline Su Onn

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Craving for Non-Existence
« on: August 02, 2015, 09:22:33 pm »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

Offline cosmic_dog_magic

  • Member
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 10:43:02 pm »
I see it as perpetuating another mode of thought, like nihilism.  It's too rigid and concrete, saying that non-existence is an actual thing, or something you have to strive to achieve.  That teaching seems to be saying, don't be too extreme with your attitude, just learn to "simply be" with each moment, not trying to change the fact of what is.  middle way.

Offline Ryan_K321

  • Member
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2015, 06:22:35 am »
Non-existence depends on existence.

Non-existence is also translated as aversion, hatred, and non-being. So if you have a painful feeling in your body, you would be craving for the non-existence of that painful feeling.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

  • Member
  • Posts: 4485
  • May all beings live rightly and harmoniously.
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2015, 08:03:51 am »
Quote
It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth?


Craving, clinging, and attachment to any state is what causes dukkha (pain, suffering, birth, aging, disease, death, and rebirth, what Buddha called this entire ball of suffering).  It is not "non-existence" or anything else which causes suffering, but "craving for or of it", which cause suffering as they are all impermanent and therefore dependently arisen and will eventually disappoint and dissatisfy us when they are taken away or change state.

A word most easily understood in this regard is "addiction" as we suffer, when that to which we have become addicted is no longer available to us or is abruptly taken away.  Think of the alcohol or drug detoxification process.

Suffering or dukkha is simply another state or condition.  It is the result of our addictions (desire, clinging, attachment) and is manifested or arises when a change of state, which moves us from satisfaction to dissatisfaction takes place due to impermanence of all dependently arisen phenomena.

Quote
SN 45.165 PTS: S v 56 CDB ii 1561
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering
translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
© 2009

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."

*see notes from source for more detailed explanation:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.165.wlsh.html


Consider that you may be confusing a state to which attachment, clinging, and craving cause suffering with the cause of dukkha itself.

If you have no desire or addiction for sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence, and do not cling, or crave any of these states or conditions, then there well be no dukkha resulting when they inevitably are removed due to their impermanent nature.

So, Buddha asks over and over again:  "What is the point of becoming attached to that which is impermanent?"....even "non-existence" is impermanent.  Therefore, what point in attachment to non-existence unless your aim is to inevitably suffer when it changes state?

Here is my favorite story as to the futility of attachment:

Quote
Kisagotami, the Mother With the Dead Child 

There lived in Savatthi a girl called Gotami, in poor circumstances, belonging to the lowest caste. Because she was very thin and haggard, a real bean-pole, everyone called her the haggard (kisa) Gotami. When one saw her walking around, tall and thin, one could not fathom her inner riches. One could truly say about her:

 Her beauty was an inner one
One could not see its spark outside.
She was despondent because due to her poverty and lack of attractiveness, she was unable to find a husband. But one day it suddenly happened that a rich merchant who appreciated her inner wealth and considered that more important than her outer appearance, married her. However, the husband's family despised her because of her caste, her poverty and her looks. This animosity caused her great unhappiness, especially because of her beloved husband, who found himself in conflict between love for his parents and love for his wife.

But when Kisagotami gave birth to a baby boy, the husband's whole clan finally accepted her as the mother of the son and heir. Her relief about this changed attitude was immense and a great burden was taken from her. Now she was totally happy and contented. The boy grew up and soon started playing outside, full of energy and joy. However, one day her happiness showed itself to be based on an illusion. Her little son died suddenly. She did not know how to bear this tragedy. Beyond the usual love of a mother for her child, she had been especially attached to this child, because he was the guarantee for her marital bliss and her peace of mind.

His death made her fear that her husband's family would despise her again and that they would blame her, saying she was karmically unable to have a son. "Kisagotami must have done some very despicable deeds, to have this happen to her," people would say. And even her husband might reject her now. All such ideas and imaginings revolved in her mind and a dark cloud descended upon her. She simply refused to accept the fact that the child was dead, and became obsessed with the fantasy that her child was only sick and that she had to get medicine for him.

With the dead child in her arms, she ran away from her home and went from house to house asking for medicine for her little son. At every door she begged: "Please give me some medicine for my child," but the people replied that medicine would not help any more, the child was dead. But she did not understand what they were saying to her, because in her mind she had resolved that the child was not dead. Others laughed at her without compassion. But amongst the many selfish and unsympathetic people, she also met a wise and kind person who recognized that her mind was deranged because of grief. He advised her to visit the best physician, namely the Buddha of the ten powers, who would know the right remedy.

She immediately followed this advice and ran to Prince Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery, where the Buddha was staying. She arrived in the middle of a discourse being given by the Buddha to a large congregation. Totally despairing and in tears, with the corpse of the child in her arms, she begged the Buddha, "Master, give me medicine for my son." The Awakened One interrupted his teaching and replied kindly that he knew of a medicine. Hopefully she inquired what that could be.

"Mustard seeds," the Enlightened One replied, astounding everyone present.

Joyfully, Kisagotami inquired where she should go to obtain them and what kind to get. The Buddha replied that she need only bring a very small quantity from any house where no one had died. She trusted the Blessed One's words and went to the town. At the first house, she asked whether any mustard seeds were available. "Certainly," was the reply. "Could I have a few seeds?" she inquired. "Of course," she was told, and some seeds were brought to her. But then she asked the second question, which she had not deemed quite as important: whether anyone had died in this house. "But of course," the people told her. And so it went everywhere. In one house someone; had died recently, in another house some time ago. She could not find any house where no one had died. The dead ones are more numerous than the living ones, she was told.

Towards evening she finally realized that not only she was stricken by the death of a loved one, but this was the common human fate. What no words had been able to convey to her, her own experience — going from door to door — made clear to her. She understood the law of existence, the being fettered to the always re-occurring deaths. In this way, the Buddha was able to heal her obsession and bring her to an acceptance of reality. Kisagotami no longer refused to believe that her child was dead, but understood that death is the destiny of all beings.

Such were the means by which the Buddha could heal grief-stricken people and bring them out of their overpowering delusion, in which the whole world was perceived only in the perspective of their loss. Once, when someone was lamenting the death of his father, the Buddha asked him which father he meant: the father of this life, or the last life, or the one before that. Because if one wanted to grieve, then it would be just as well not only to feel sorrow for the one father. (Pv 8, J 352).

Another time a grief-stricken person was able to see reality when the Buddha pointed out to him that his son would be reborn and that he was only lamenting for an empty shell. (Pv 12, J 354).

After Kisagotami had come to her senses, she took the child's lifeless body to the cemetery and returned to the Enlightened One. He asked her whether she had brought any mustard seed. She gratefully explained how she had been cured by the Blessed One. Thereupon the Master spoke the following verse to her:

 In flocks and children finding delight,
with a mind clinging — just such a man
death seizes and carries away,
as a great flood, a sleeping village.
— Dhp 287

Because her mind had matured and she had won insight into reality, it was possible for her to become a stream-winner after hearing the Buddha proclaim just that one verse. She asked for admittance into the Order of Nuns.

After having spent some time as a nun, practicing and studying Dhamma, she watched her lamp one evening and compared the restlessly hissing flames with the ups and downs of life and death. Thereupon the Blessed One came to her and again spoke a short verse:

 Though one should live a hundred years
not seeing the Deathless State,
yet better is life for a single day,
seeing the Deathless State.
— Dhp 114

When she heard these lines, she was able to shed all fetters and became one of the arahants, the fully Enlightened Ones.


source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel292.html#kisa

« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 08:32:32 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline KarmaDrakpaYeshe

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 09:41:16 pm »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
It would be very difficult to actually legitimately crave for that. In fact it would signal serious psychological problems. You may think you are "craving for that" but in reality is just wishing 90 percent of the time and that is A OK :)

study the 12 links of dependent origination and you will see how craving for something like that would be very difficult to achieve unless you somehow brainwashed yourself into it through a complicated series of things that shouldn't be discussed.

Offline Dmytro

  • Member
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2016, 05:41:06 am »
It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth?

Vibhava-ta.nhaa (sometimes translated as "craving for non-existence") is a craving associated with a belief in a cessation of existence after the death of the body.

It can be translated more accurately as 'craving for annihilation with the death of the body'.

Since it is based on wrong view, it leads to further rebirth.

Offline Arkena

  • Member
  • Posts: 53
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2017, 10:00:28 am »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
It would be very difficult to actually legitimately crave for that. In fact it would signal serious psychological problems. You may think you are "craving for that" but in reality is just wishing 90 percent of the time and that is A OK :)

study the 12 links of dependent origination and you will see how craving for something like that would be very difficult to achieve unless you somehow brainwashed yourself into it through a complicated series of things that shouldn't be discussed.

Honestly and with sadness i can say that when i was suicidal due to poor mental health i craved to simply not exist, to stop experiencing suffering anymore...

Hope no one has to go through that...

Offline Spiny Norman

  • Member
  • Posts: 5087
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 01:49:21 am »
Honestly and with sadness i can say that when i was suicidal due to poor mental health i craved to simply not exist, to stop experiencing suffering anymore...

That's a good example of the craving for non-existence. 

( I hope you're doing OK now )

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2123
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 11:35:14 am »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
I take 'rebirth' to stand for the opposite of liberation and craving for non-existence because of not bearing existence is certainly the opposite of liberation.

It is similar to craving meditative absorptions because of not bearing ordinary mind existence. This is also said to entail rebirth.

Either there is liberation in every day life or there is 'rebirth'.

Offline AlwaysDayAfterYesterday

  • It's Always Now
  • Member
  • Posts: 34
  • Find the Hidden Direction
    • View Profile
    • AlephBetBlog
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 01:15:06 pm »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming

There are four.  What's missing?  The one thing hidden in Buddhism, which is the result of involution and evolution.  With number 1, you are non-existent, or at least not manifest into a form / self.  With number 2, you have the desire to exist, but existence requires both knowledge and wisdom.
With 3, you are developing (evolution), which requires suffering as a prerequisite.  Following the four Noble Truths, we have this:

Note where I have [added] my own view. 

1. Suffering exists in everyone’s life.
[Suffering is prerequisite to removal of suffering]

2. The causes of suffering are greed, anger, and ignorance.
[For every joy you take, there is a price to pay]

3. Nirvana, the extinction of suffering, is possible for everyone.
[For every price you pay, there is a joy – Suffer on Purpose]

4. Nirvana is achieved by following the Noble Eightfold Path.
[Compassion and the Suffering Servant]

This follows on the heels of an aphorism, which states, "For every joy, there is a price to pay."  In the case of existence, it is the prerequisite of suffering.  Eliminating suffering is not the extinction of the person, but the arrival and birth of the true Self in Sattva, or the end as the beginning.  The Being you are has not yet been realized as long as you are here in the Triloka of lower six realms.  You are a child in a womb developing mental organs (Vijñāna). 

See the attached outline of all 10 realms in association with personal development attached.  Enlarge on a PDF viewer. 

4.  Being (Sattva)

« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 01:22:30 pm by AlwaysDayAfterYesterday »
Time and Space are one.  The day after yesterday is now.  You always have time to forget the past by building the future.  The best way to predict the future is to create it.  When do you begin?  All of time and space for you to grow, develop, cultivate and remake yourself again and again.  Seek, Find and Adaptation.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 02:09:37 pm »

Honestly and with sadness i can say that when i was suicidal due to poor mental health i craved to simply not exist, to stop experiencing suffering anymore...

Hope no one has to go through that...

Yes. I concur with Spiny Norman. This is a good example of the craving for non-existence. 

(I also hope you're doing OK now. Please communicate with us if you need to).

From the perspective of Buddhist theory, what makes it 'craving for non-existence' is the thinking that "I" do not want to exist.

When the mind has an enlightened view, it does not view painful feelings as an "I" or "self" therefore it does not manifest craving for non-existence.

To quote:


Quote
How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach. Iti 49

 :namaste:

Offline Rahul

  • Member
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 08:22:34 pm »
The one thing hidden in Buddhism, ...
There is nothing hidden in Buddha's teachings. He spoke precisely, unambiguously, and explained in detail. Before his nirvana, he did mention to his followers that everything that is needed to attain nirvana, had been clearly and precisely taught by him, and that he didn't hold back any secrets. And he discouraged his disciples to speculate and indulge about the things he thought were unrelated or unnecessary for nirvana.


Offline AlwaysDayAfterYesterday

  • It's Always Now
  • Member
  • Posts: 34
  • Find the Hidden Direction
    • View Profile
    • AlephBetBlog
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 06:26:17 am »
The one thing hidden in Buddhism, ...
There is nothing hidden in Buddha's teachings. He spoke precisely, unambiguously, and explained in detail. Before his nirvana, he did mention to his followers that everything that is needed to attain nirvana, had been clearly and precisely taught by him, and that he didn't hold back any secrets. And he discouraged his disciples to speculate and indulge about the things he thought were unrelated or unnecessary for nirvana.

In the Diamond Sutra, there are 10 directions mentioned, but only nine given in the text.  North, South, East, West, Past, Present, Future, Above, Below.  What is the hidden direction?  Inside--YOU.  You are what is hidden in the text.  Lord / Ishvara is given as our freedom in the Triloka.  All Sutras are threads used in our robe.  In other words, your future Being (Sattva) is the last direction.  In the opening of the Diamond Sutra, the first opening chapter is about putting on the Robe (body in Sattva) and heading to town (Tamas).  Begging and the bowl are food (in all scripture, knowledge).  We are always here with an assembly of others in birth, or our kinsman.  On return, we hang the robe, clean the bowl, wash the feed and take our seat in the Assembly.  All of the activities of the Sangha are mirrored below in this world in the form of exoteric practices.  Those practices mirror the symbolism of the truth above in Sattva.  Literally, we meditate this world into existence using Maya as our fabric and Sutra as our thread.  Words and Letters.  As the Dhammapada states, "With your mind, you make the world." 

You are very correct that all has been said.  Wrong view and clinging to this side of the equation is the problem.  Above, you say this:  "He spoke precisely, unambiguously, and explained in detail."

Yes, but not arranged into a correct view, which I have done below.  Look over this simple PDF.  I have a larger work including all the lists of 10, 9 and so on from Sutras across the territory.  Sutras are threads meant to be sown into the larger body.  You must arrange them, as well as learn the Sanskrit words by association to their meaning to the thread.  Each patch of your robe is sown with these threads.  Take this seriously and do not simply blow me off with bias.  Take a look and consider what I have realized.  It takes ALL relatives to make Absolute.  Dharma is as much about arranging relatives in order as it is about valuing each part of the whole. 

Take a look.  See that this arrangement of elements in order allows for other realizations to grow.  Seeds must be opened to make the flower from the mud.  This Mystery is far from solved.  Emptiness is only half of the work to then cultivate what is gathered as seed. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 06:42:26 am by AlwaysDayAfterYesterday »
Time and Space are one.  The day after yesterday is now.  You always have time to forget the past by building the future.  The best way to predict the future is to create it.  When do you begin?  All of time and space for you to grow, develop, cultivate and remake yourself again and again.  Seek, Find and Adaptation.

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 05:47:21 pm »

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming

There are four.  What's missing?  The one thing hidden in Buddhism, which is the result of involution and evolution.  With number 1, you are non-existent, or at least not manifest into a form / self.  With number 2, you have the desire to exist, but existence requires both knowledge and wisdom.
With 3, you are developing (evolution), which requires suffering as a prerequisite. 

What a nonsens and contradiction: Wisdom is reason for birth and suffering..." Bith, Suffering followed by Saddha (eg. virtue) is the prerequisite of release.

Would be good if AlwaysDayAfterYesterday sort out his ideas to see the unhidden. For its defilement to believe that something was hidden by the Buddha, now thinking "I am the one who dis-covered".

Its of no merits to put one waste, defilement, and ideas, above the Dhamma. The bowl seems to be not cleaned proper and there are already planty of bacterials causing a masse of smell from fermentation. Since in some traditions they have started to eat own produced fermented food and not proper go for alms their teaching is like that.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:56:24 pm by Samana Johann »
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline Rahul

  • Member
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 11:35:58 pm »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
To crave for anything (even for non-existence), 'you' must exist. You will exist in order to live your craving, and will be reborn to live it again. 

You might have noticed that sometimes the people we hated, would show up unexpectedly at unexpected places, hundreds of miles away in a new place. Why does it happen? We come face to face with them, to live our hatred to them.

You will be reborn to live whatever cravings or desires you have.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal