Author Topic: Craving for Non-Existence  (Read 5097 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 11:42:35 pm »
Useful talk on the topic matter: Seeds of Becoming
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Offline AlwaysDayAfterYesterday

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2017, 05:04:19 am »

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming

There are four.  What's missing?  The one thing hidden in Buddhism, which is the result of involution and evolution.  With number 1, you are non-existent, or at least not manifest into a form / self.  With number 2, you have the desire to exist, but existence requires both knowledge and wisdom.
With 3, you are developing (evolution), which requires suffering as a prerequisite. 

What a nonsens and contradiction: Wisdom is reason for birth and suffering..." Bith, Suffering followed by Saddha (eg. virtue) is the prerequisite of release.

Would be good if AlwaysDayAfterYesterday sort out his ideas to see the unhidden. For its defilement to believe that something was hidden by the Buddha, now thinking "I am the one who dis-covered".

Its of no merits to put one waste, defilement, and ideas, above the Dhamma. The bowl seems to be not cleaned proper and there are already planty of bacterials causing a masse of smell from fermentation. Since in some traditions they have started to eat own produced fermented food and not proper go for alms their teaching is like that.

In Zen, there are two aphorisms you could use to see that we are both saying the same: 

1.  Sickness and Medicine Cancel
2.  The same hand that gives sickness is the same hand that gives medicine

You are that hand.  If you are fatigued (sick), you need medicine (rest).  If you take too much medicine, the sickness reappears in a different form (laziness).  Only by mastery of both do you find the virtue.  Bliss is the virtue found once you master (cancel out) the need for the other two.  In this, you are not non-being, not becoming, but being.  Virtue.  Enlightenment of the field of emptiness is only noticing the potentiality of the space.  The other half of Nirvana is to see that there is no difference between this and what it produces in Maya.  BOTH are Nirvana.  Rebirth is not something you will avoid.  It's merely a changed state of mind when you find your place in creation.  This has always been hidden in Buddhism, because YOU are the thing you hide from.  Mastery overcomes this with truth, or Sattva.  You are the being (Sattva) and the Truth of why you are here.  When the student is ready (you), the Master appears (you again).  All four below never end.  Always for each. 

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming
4. Being
Time and Space are one.  The day after yesterday is now.  You always have time to forget the past by building the future.  The best way to predict the future is to create it.  When do you begin?  All of time and space for you to grow, develop, cultivate and remake yourself again and again.  Seek, Find and Adaptation.

Offline NiagaraGrrl

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 03:03:40 pm »
Author Su Onn
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According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:


     I can feel how it (craving for non-existence) is pulling one towards re-birth, but it's harder to find the right metaphor or other way to say it.

     I've craved non-existence since I was about 8 years old but as a Catholic was taught it would bring the extreme suffering of eternal hell-fire.  As soon as I heard about reincarnation I believed in it (it explained - for one thing - a memory in my hands that my hands were too small for) and even before I began to study Buddhism I somehow knew that I had to learn a lot before I could get better birth circumstances (no, I didn't have that language to think about it with). Having gone into denial about having that craving, it was some decades into daily meditation before I met it again as an adult.

     The craving for non-existence feels quite dangerous and seems ugly, but its main face is sweet, sweet blackness. Bumbling around for words, I would say that it is the strength with which the craving pushes back against the ability to know anything that creates a skid in one's track, that warps any skillfulness (in the Buddhist sense) one may have developed or be developing. Having that warped-ness greatly increases the likelihood one will cause pain in an other, creating karma and pulling one back here with a lot more work to do.
     
     I'm sure all the posters here will clarify anything I get wrong or leave out. But if you reader/posters care about those who crave non-existence (and I'm sure you do), instead of offering me your sympathy I'd urge you to ask around your acquaintances and find all the ones who are quite satisfied to believe that existence stops when their body dies. They're looking forward to it, while I see that belief as a cop-out (wishful thinking) and am working on my own craving.
     
         I did say I was bumbling for words, and I left out some crucial part of what it feels like is happening. Although I am aware of the craving, nevertheless it is still out of my control to a degree (since otherwise it would be gone). It is my back braced against a stone cliff with soles of my feet pressed up against a steel wall that is closing in. There is a touch of abject fear, along with hatred of myself and of everything I have ever done to hurt someone and thereby deserve the misery I am awash in (Well, as an 8-year-old I was awash in it. As a long-time meditating adult I feel misery's fetid breath on my neck but am not quite awash, do not carry out revenges or hate people, etc.). But the amount of energy that is being generated is great, and the quality of the energy is not good. It's jagged and destructive, and makes one solid. It (pushing against existence, or craving non-existence) is massively significant and is crucial, crucial! to my safety. That's a little poetic license, but also points right to ego, or the house-builder, if you will. What I see is that, absurdly - or hilariously - once we are able to stop creating a self we will be able to stop craving the non-existence of it.
     
     So maybe that’s the crux I’ve been bumbling around trying to find. It would have to be the self, the concrete, faux-permanent ego, that craves non-existence. And the energy of the craving is feeding the self that is cultivating that craving. The self thus fed is gaining in crusty solid-self-feelingness and is far from able to find nirvana or resist rebirth. And one can't simply stay dead any more than one can simply stay alive.
     
     Thank you Su Onn for your original question. I feel that it has enabled me to poke a ray of sight into the heart of an ugly tangle that’s been plaguing me most likely for multiple lifetimes.

Offline ratnashugden

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 04:51:23 pm »
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

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Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 05:23:40 pm »
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

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When you think about it, do you really want that?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 08:14:49 pm »
When you think about it, do you really want that?

This shows clearly why accusations of 'not-a-Buddhist' occur.  ;D

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 09:42:21 pm »
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
To crave for anything (even for non-existence), 'you' must exist. You will exist in order to live your craving, and will be reborn to live it again. 

You might have noticed that sometimes the people we hated, would show up unexpectedly at unexpected places, hundreds of miles away in a new place. Why does it happen? We come face to face with them, to live our hatred to them.

You will be reborn to live whatever cravings or desires you have.

What happened to science?

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 09:44:25 pm »
When you think about it, do you really want that?

This shows clearly why accusations of 'not-a-Buddhist' occur.  ;D

Yeah, you are probably right, as usual, since people are predictably silly to make such an assumption over a sincere question asking one to properly and thoroughly examine themselves. It is of course what I want for you though, immediately, and always, forever.

Offline ratnashugden

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2017, 10:49:51 pm »
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

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When you think about it, do you really want that?
Yes.
I read the sutta.
I understand the teaching, which is an authentic dharma doctrine.
I tested vipassana insight meditation as taught in the sutta, & I found it, the experience of anatta, to be true.
I'm still practising it.
Each meditation session being an opportunity to re-analyse it again to prove anatta to be a wrong view, but it isn't, therefore each session reaffirms the teaching in myself.

In my experience, abiding in the state of anatta bhavana, also makes me less susceptible to evil & black magic from it, & removes them fully/partially. The doctrine of anatta became a tool for spiritual/religious survival, which I can no longer do without. If I can't even survive spiritually/religiously, I can't do other things in life.

It's always right & safe to move closer towards spiritual/religious truths taught by the Buddha Sakyamuni, even though it can be perceived too be ambitious, from the secular life's point of view.

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Offline ground

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2017, 12:54:21 am »
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

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Craving for non-existence is the opposite of realisation of anatta. In the best case it may lead to the formless dimension of nothingness.
Quote
'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment ...

'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html

« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 12:57:24 am by ground »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2017, 02:26:37 am »
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

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When you think about it, do you really want that?
Yes.
I read the sutta.
I understand the teaching, which is an authentic dharma doctrine.
I tested vipassana insight meditation as taught in the sutta, & I found it, the experience of anatta, to be true.
I'm still practising it.
Each meditation session being an opportunity to re-analyse it again to prove anatta to be a wrong view, but it isn't, therefore each session reaffirms the teaching in myself.

In my experience, abiding in the state of anatta bhavana, also makes me less susceptible to evil & black magic from it, & removes them fully/partially. The doctrine of anatta became a tool for spiritual/religious survival, which I can no longer do without. If I can't even survive spiritually/religiously, I can't do other things in life.

It's always right & safe to move closer towards spiritual/religious truths taught by the Buddha Sakyamuni, even though it can be perceived too be ambitious, from the secular life's point of view.

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Very excellent reply. Thank you for making it and thinking about it. So when you will cease to exist, you will be gone forever. When everything ceases to exist, is it the goal that nothing ever is allowed to exist again or existing in any way?

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2017, 02:40:57 am »
I have heard that some Brahmans said to the Buddha, you are a Nihilist, you want extinction, to cease to exist forever (referring to the meaning of the word Nirvana as extinguishing and putting out), but the reply to them was that such is a misunderstanding and that stable eternity beyond disturbance is sought, not non-existence or the end of all life.

So there seems to be a divergence of ideas in this regard. A group seeking annihilation and complete extinguishing of their own existence and possibly all existence whatsoever, and another view that Nirvana is experiential and people live and abide in it, perpetually serene and free from trouble and evil or disruptions, what is extinguished are their burning cravings which lead to troubles but not their experience or ability to exist or even perform.

The third view is that in some senses Jain and Buddhists and other meditative practitioners were seeking to become immune God-beings beyond the Devas.

So do you all take to the view that the goal is never existing or experiencing anything ever again? Yet you believe that if you do not completely cleanse yourself while in this body you will somehow return? The Materialist Atheists tend to say you will cease to exist forever when you die, so in that case the goal would be achieved by suicide, but even Nihilistic Buddhists might not consider such to be the case due to believing in genuine experiential reincarnation. Buddhists who believe in Experiential Nirvana also tend to believe in experiential reincarnation or even when they don't, their goal is still something experienced rather than not experienced and so they also refrain from suicide.


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2017, 05:32:01 am »
I have heard that some Brahmans said to the Buddha, you are a Nihilist, you want extinction, to cease to exist forever (referring to the meaning of the word Nirvana as extinguishing and putting out), but the reply to them was that such is a misunderstanding and that stable eternity beyond disturbance is sought, not non-existence or the end of all life.

While not all Buddhists & students interpret the teachings the same, at least most make an effort to reference their interpretations with some scripture. The most important virtue is honesty & to not misrepresent others. This idea about "eternity" is very strange & unusual.

As least according to the Pali, when the Buddha was accused of being a nihilist, he replied with the famous words, namely:

Quote
In the past & now, I teach only about suffering & freedom from/cessation of suffering. (MN 22)

 :dharma:



Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2017, 08:20:10 am »
I have heard that some Brahmans said to the Buddha, you are a Nihilist, you want extinction, to cease to exist forever (referring to the meaning of the word Nirvana as extinguishing and putting out), but the reply to them was that such is a misunderstanding and that stable eternity beyond disturbance is sought, not non-existence or the end of all life.

While not all Buddhists & students interpret the teachings the same, at least most make an effort to reference their interpretations with some scripture. The most important virtue is honesty & to not misrepresent others. This idea about "eternity" is very strange & unusual.

As least according to the Pali, when the Buddha was accused of being a nihilist, he replied with the famous words, namely:

Quote
In the past & now, I teach only about suffering & freedom from/cessation of suffering. (MN 22)

 :dharma:

So you don't know about this notion of Nirvana being experiential and lasting? Eternity means lasting forever, not ending or changing. You have heard nothing within your extensive studies in Buddhism and Buddhist scriptures of this and the denial that Nirvana refers to Non-Existence? Furthermore, you very likely do not believe in experiential reincarnation, and furthermore probably do not believe in attaining Nirvana through any practices really except via simply dying as one or anyone dies, or could you explain what you believe regarding these things with your more Western Materialistic Science Model? The simple and quick path to permanent non-existence would be suicide in that case, but Buddhists are generally not told that the quickest and simplest way to end personal suffering and existence is through suicide nor does that appear to be the Buddhas great contribution to the world.

I can't quote suttas from my phone without major trouble, so I expect you to do so since you are expertly efficient in that regard, but not to conceal what you have seen and well know to try to demonstrate things you prefer.

For example, why didn't the Buddha simply tell people to kill themselves in order to cease to exist and end suffering for themselves, as would be the Western Scientific Atheistic idea?

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2017, 09:15:32 am »
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4216/how-is-nirvana-different-than-annihilation

" The Buddhist scriptures clearly & unambiguously have defined Nirvana as the here & now cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.

Nirvana is not anihilation. The ending of ego in the mind is the awakening of its spiritual faculties.

The end of ego is not 'death' but 'life'."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)

"Precanonical Buddhism   Edit
Stanislaw Schayer, a Polish scholar, argued in the 1930s that the Nikayas preserve elements of an archaic form of Buddhism which is close to Brahmanical beliefs,[138][139][140][141] and survived in the Mahayana tradition.[142][143] Contrary to popular opinion, the Theravada and Mahayana traditions may be "divergent, but equally reliable records of a pre-canonical Buddhism which is now lost forever."[142] The Mahayana tradition may have preserved a very old, "pre-Canonical" and oral Buddhist tradition, which was largely, but not completely, left out of the Theravada-canon.[143]

Nirvana as consciousness
Regamy has identified four points which are central to Schayer's reconstruction of precanonical Buddhism:[144]

The Buddha was considered as an extraordinary being, in whom ultimate reality was embodied, and who was an incarnation of the mythical figure of the tathagata;
The Buddha's disciples were attracted to his spiritual charisma and supernatural authority;
Nirvana was conceived as the attainment of immortality, and the gaining of a deathless sphere from which there would be no falling back. This nirvana, as a transmundane reality or state, is incarnated in the person of the Buddha;
Nirvana can be reached because it already dwells as the inmost "consciousness" of the human being. It is a consciousness which is not subject to birth and death.
Conze mentions ideas like the "person" (pudgala), the assumption of an eternal "consciousness" in the saddhatusutra, the identification of the Absolute, as descriptors of Nirvana to mean an "invisible infinite consciousness, which shines everywhere" in Dighanikaya XI 85, and "traces of a belief in consciousness as the nonimpermanent centre of the personality which constitutes an absolute element in this contingent world."[143]

Nirvana as a location
Schayer's methodology has been used by M. Falk.[145][note 19] Falk details the precanonical Buddhist conceptions of the cosmos, nirvana, the Buddha, the path, and the saint. According to Falk, in the precanonical tradition, there is a threefold division of reality:[145]

The rupadhatu, the samsaric sphere of name and form (namarupa), in which ordinary beings live, die, and are reborn.
The arupadhatu, the sphere of "sheer nama," produced by samadhi, an ethereal realm frequented by yogins who are not completely liberated;
"Above" or "outside" these two realms is the realm of nirvana, the "amrta sphere," characterized by prajna. This nirvana is an "abode" or "place" which is gained by the enlightened holy man.[note 20]
According to Falk, this scheme is reflected in the precanonical conception of the path to liberation.[147] The nirvanic element, as an "essence" or pure consciousness, is immanent within samsara. The three bodies are concentric realities, which are stripped away or abandoned, leaving only the nirodhakaya of the liberated person.[147] Wynne notes that this pure consciousness was the central element in precanonical Buddhism:

Schayer referred to passages in which "consciousness" (vinnana) seems to be the ultimate reality or substratum (e.g. A I.10) 14 as well as the Saddhatu Sutra, which is not found in any canonical source but is cited in other Buddhist texts — it states that the personality (pudgala) consists of the six elements (dhatu) of earth, water, fire, wind, space and consciousness; Schayer noted that it related to other ancient Indian ideas. Keith’s argument is also based on the Saddhatu Sutra as well as "passages where we have explanations of Nirvana which echo the ideas of the Upanishads regarding the ultimate reality." He also refers to the doctrine of "a consciousness, originally pure, defiled by adventitious impurities."[148]

According to Lindtner, in precanonical Buddhism Nirvana is a physical place and the outer most realm of cosmos.[149] This is a place, states Lindtner, referred to as nirvanadhatu, without border-signs (animitta), it cannot be visualized (anidarsana), it is past the other six dhatus (beginning with earth and ending with vijñana) but is closest to akasa and vijñana. Once there in this is place of nirvana, one does not slip back, it is acyutapada. As opposed to this world, adds Lindtner, nirvana in early Buddhism is a pleasant place to be in, "it is sukha, things work well".[150][note 21]

Elements of this precanonical Buddhism may have survived the canonisation, and its subsequent filtering out of ideas, and re-appeared in Mahayana Buddhism.[138][140] According to Lindtner, the existence of multiple, and contradicting ideas, is also reflected in the works of 2nd-century Nagarjuna, who tried to harmonize these different and conflicting ideas in Buddhist literature that preceded him. According to Lindtner, this lead him to take a "paradoxical" stance, on nirvana, where he rejects any positive description and rejects any absolute, while paradoxically accepting all sides within the Buddhist traditions.[151]"

https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/

"Only after studying the Pali Canon did I discover that nirvana is a different event to death; it is life without death, and it is nourishing to all living things. Even though the body may yield to death, the mind in a state of nirvana does not die.

Other religions in India that were contemporary to Buddhism also used the word ‘nirvana’. Leaders of these religions used to send their men to ask the Buddha about his version of nirvana. Their meaning might have been ‘death’ (these were the peoples of south India). We may conclude, therefore, that nirvana was the most important subject of these people. One such group might have interpreted the word as ‘death’ and taught that as the meaning in Southeast Asia before Buddhism spread throughout the area. It was probably the same in the case of the word ‘atman’ (self).

The Buddha went in search of nirvana—in the sense of total extinction of suffering, rather than in the sense of it meaning death—with the help of leaders of various religious sects existing in India during that period. The highest realm he found was ‘the realm of neither-perception-nor-nonperception’, that is ‘the calmness of the mind wherein there is neither death nor nondeath’. This he did not accept as being the ultimate, and continued in his search. Finally, he reached nirvana, the cool state of mind resulting from the extinction of defilements, and he termed it ‘the cessation of suffering’. The more one’s defilements decrease, the more the coolness increases. This continues until the greatest degree of coolness is reached after all of one’s impurities have been extinguished. Nirvana is the coolness resulting from the extinction of defilements whether they become extinct of themselves or by one’s effort.
Defilements are compounded things­—they have birth and they have death. According to the Pali Canon, this fact is an indication that something is a defilement. When causal conditions are not present, defilements simply become extinct. Even though the extinction may be temporary, even though there is only temporary coolness, the phenomenon has the real sense of nirvana. Hence, temporary nirvana does exist for those who have some impurities left; temporary nirvana nourishes all sentient beings. If defilements were with us day and night without ceasing, who would ever stand them? Living things would either die, or become insane first and then die. One survives because there are periods when the fires of defilements do not burn. Periodical nirvana keeps all of us alive and well, and is a nourishing condition, normal to life.

Why don’t we know or feel thankful for this kind of nirvana? Fortunately, it is our instinct to acquire it. Whatever has any heart and mind will look for periods when defilements, or strong desires, are absent. If a living thing maintains unceasing desire, it will have to die. Therefore, an infant knows how to suck milk and a ­mosquito knows how to suck blood, in order to keep itself alive. Our instincts inherently have such a quality; that is to say, we instinctively go in search of spans of time when the mind is free from defilement or desire. Whenever it happens, a little nirvana always comes in. And the phenomenon will continue until one learns how to convert it into permanent or complete nirvana. This will not be death, but nondeath, especially of one’s mind. Those who see this truth will realise by themselves that we all survive because of this kind of nirvana, and not solely because of food with which we are infatuated.

The coolness and calmness which everyone wants is the meaning of nirvana, but most people misunderstand it and go towards fiery sensual pleasures instead. What they then receive is false nirvana. Such practices have been in existence since the time of the Buddha or even before that period as seen in the sixty-two views of the Brahma­jala sutta.

The supreme state of nirvana is attained when all the fires of defilement are extinguished. The highest attainment in Buddhism, as stated by the Buddha, involves the extinction of lust, anger, and delusion. That is the ultimate extinction of all the fires, and the subsequent coolness is as supreme as life can attain.

Nirvana is not the mind, but the state which the mind can achieve. The Buddha referred to it as a sphere to be reached by mindfulness and wisdom. Visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, and tangible objects are of the material sphere, the physical sphere. The sphere of unbounded space and other spheres up to the sphere of neither-perception­-nor-nonperception are mental spheres that the mind can reach. However, nirvana is a sphere of wisdom which mindful, wise people may perceive or attain. Nirvana, therefore, may be considered to be something that nature holds for human beings of a higher spiritual level. We should consider this fact in order that both nirvana and all of us do not exist in vain. Every one of us has the mindfulness and the wisdom to sense nirvana. Please don’t let it all go to waste.
The sphere of nirvana is something that naturally exists for people to attain. It is like precious medicine which can extinguish all kinds of suffering. No ordinary medicine can ever relieve the real suffering or disease which exists, disease caused by defilements which can only be cured by the extinction of those defilements. This sickness is the utmost ailment of the soul, hidden secretly in us and secretly tormenting us. Whoever extinguishes it will be the one who reaches the pinnacle of being human.

Synonyms of nirvana are numerous: ‘deathless­ness’, ‘permanence’, ‘peace’, ‘the state of being without fear or danger’, ‘health’, ‘the state of being without disease’, ‘freedom’, ‘emancipation’, ‘the shelter’, ‘the refuge’, ‘the stronghold’, the float for people who have fallen into the water’, ‘the highest gain’, ‘the highest bliss’, ‘the further shore’, ‘the place one will reach in the future when the physical and mental constitution of the body comes to an end’, and so on. The expression which best conveys the meaning of nirvana is ‘the cessation of suffering’, but it is not interesting enough for those who do not feel that they are suffering. For them, there is no suffering to extinguish. Once they are told that nirvana is a new life, a life in which there is a quenching of thirst, or a life which is beyond the positive or negative, then they become extremely interested. For each individual we must have a particular translation of the word ‘nirvana’, which is not at all easy. Deep down, everybody wants nirvana, but they are not conscious of that fact."

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/4068/how-can-nirvana-nibbana-be-permanent

http://www.buddhism.org/?p=786

http://www.sptimmortalityproject.com/background/buddhist-views-of-the-afterlife/

https://www.quora.com/If-the-goal-of-Buddhism-is-to-break-the-cycle-of-life-and-death-and-reach-Nirvana-or-Buddhahood-how-is-this-compatible-with-the-idea-of-impermanence

I don't think the Buddha had intended to create this much confusion.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/2122/secular-buddhism-and-suicide

Anyway, there seems to be evidence suggesting this idea was not originally overly complex or difficult. Since people suffer due to changes and ups and downs and gain and loss and life and death, the idea seemed to be to find a way to transcend these things which cause suffering, and the idea was quite strong in Buddhist cosmology that a Buddha attaining total Nirvana simply transcends the ups and downs and becomes a kind of immortal figure who is always, not dying, not suffering, but still Awake, still Aware, and not participating in suffering or contributing to it, they aren't ignorantly greedy for the wrong things, but are forever free from it. Not just dead.

This just dead idea is silly and doesn't fit well with generations of Buddhist writing and efforts and ideas. If its just dead, and there is no returning from death, then suicide is indeed the most efficient option for ending everything in such a worldview.

The final attainment was considered the state where one no longer turns back grasping, it was perpetuity rather than death and life and pain and crazy flux.

 


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