Author Topic: Craving for Non-Existence  (Read 3101 times)

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 06:33:48 pm »
So why not just be clear? You believe that what you believe is what the Buddha was said to have said, and you believe the end of suffering is basically to die. Yes? Just say it like a human being please.

Please stop slandering. The end of suffering is the end of craving & self-identifying, as quoted.  :om:

Nobody is "slandering" as far as that word is generally defined. We are just discussing and you are being asked to be clear.

Offline EaglesWing

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 06:38:42 pm »
When one dies they simply cease to be forever, the ultimate goal of Buddhism right? So the evil doer has nothing to be concerned about, its quite relaxing. Rape, pillage, murder, you escape via death, and there is no one to be caught or held accountable so long as you get away with it in life. Right? If not right, then in plain English explain your ideas on this. In normal Buddhism which you don't believe in, one was not believed or expected to simply escape their crimes via death.

Dear The Artist Magistra Fabristra Fabricator.

The Buddha did not teach to save the world from evil. The Buddha taught to free the mind from suffering. People who rape pillage & murder either go to prison, are executed or become kings & queens. The world & your concerns about evil doers is making your mind suffer & blocking liberation. You sound so childish here but I still respect you. You sound like Moses instead of Buddha. 

:teehee: :pray:

« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:10:31 pm by EaglesWing »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 06:49:44 pm »
I have asked you some clear cut things, there is no need to hide behind things, just be open.

1. Atheistic Materialist Buddhists deny Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Nirvana or PariNirvana as anything other than generally synonymous with Non-Existence and Total Death which they must suppose is the end of everything since they deny afterlife and experiential rebirth or reincarnation.

2. If there is suffering and the end of suffering is death, there is no reason not to kill yourself in order to attain "Non-Existence" which is the topic of this thread.

3. There is nothing that Evildoers should fear regarding the Evil they do except the material concerns of getting away with it. There is no justice, judgment, repercussions, ordering system, ordering entities, watching, etc.

These views are plain to see in any Atheistic Materialistic Western Science Style Buddhist who denies Spiritual Entities, Denies Supernatural Powers or Realities, Denies Everything but Materialistic Western Science, Denies Rebirth or Reincarnation (you called such "re-birthers"), denies Justice or Retirn, and denies Nirvana is a perpetual existence or awareness, instead likening it to Absolute Permanent Death, and since the Afterlife or Re-Birth is denied m, Anyone At All Dying thus Achieves Non-Existence Forever and the end to their Suffering.

So stop calling it slander please while slandering me, and just explain how that is or is not the case, because that is very clearly the case, or seems to be, and the pok poks seem to hife behind weirdo explanations and sayings instead of boldly proclaiming that this is what is essentially being said.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 06:54:53 pm »
When one dies they simply cease to be forever, the ultimate goal of Buddhism right? So the evil doer has nothing to be concerned about, its quite relaxing. Rape, pillage, murder, you escape via death, and there is no one to be caught or held accountable so long as you get away with it in life. Right? If not right, then in plain English explain your ideas on this. In normal Buddhism which you don't believe in, one was not believed or expected to simply escape their crimes via death.

Dear The Artist Magistra Fabristra Fabricator.

The Buddha did not teach to save the world from evil. The Buddha taught to free the mind from suffering. People who rape pillage & murder either go to prison, are executed or become kings & queens. The world & your concerns about evil doers is making your mind suffer & blocking liberation. You sound so childish here but I still respect you. You sound like Moses instead of Buddha. 

:teehee: :pray:



Why should one cease suffering and what is the difference between "evil" and "suffering"? I mentioned "evil" in this context in relation to VisuddhiRaptor talking about evil and evil-doers after calling me Naughty, and this was curious because the notion of evil or evil-doers becomes entirely irrelevant if there is no real evil or possibility to do evil or consequences and everyone can easily achieve the Non-Existence they are craving via death, according to these New ideas infiltrating Buddhism. Traditional Buddhists did not believe this though, otherwise the Buddha would have said, there is suffering, kill yourselves to relieve it.

Offline meez

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 07:05:58 pm »
EaglesWing:  Stop posting videos in every other reply you make.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2017, 07:07:29 pm »
I have asked you some clear cut things, there is no need to hide behind things, just be open.

You do not understand Buddhism & thus are a heretic.

Quote
1. Atheistic Materialist Buddhists deny Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Nirvana or PariNirvana as anything other than generally synonymous with Non-Existence and Total Death which they must suppose is the end of everything since they deny afterlife and experiential rebirth or reincarnation.

The language above is not Buddhist therefore it is heresy.

The Buddha never used the terms 'materialist' or 'atheist'.

Nirvana is the here & now end of suffering from the destruction of craving.

Nihilism is the belief a 'self' will end at 'death'.

Nihilism is not the belief the aggregates are impermanent & terminate when life ends.

Moral nihilism is the view there are no results of good & bad karma.

Eternalism is the belief a 'self' continues after 'death'.

'Death' does not refer to the termination of life but the idea a 'self' dies'. It is a self-view.

Quote
2. If there is suffering and the end of suffering is death, there is no reason not to kill yourself in order to attain "Non-Existence" which is the topic of this thread.

The end of suffering is not death. PLEASE STOP SLANDERING OTHERS & PLEASE STOP LYING.

Quote
3. There is nothing that Evildoers should fear regarding the Evil they do except the material concerns of getting away with it. There is no justice, judgment, repercussions, ordering system, ordering entities, watching, etc.

This is unrelated to the essence of Buddhism but ideas of moralists.

Today, the civilised world is close to finished. It is close to endtimes. Soon, the oligarchs may impose a dictatorship as they did in 1917 in Russia. The world is making you suffer. This is unBuddhist, heresy & blasphemy.

Quote
These views are plain to see in any Atheistic Materialistic Western Science Style Buddhist

This is silly. Today, Buddhists are murdering Rohingya & other minorities in Burma; Sri Lankan monks are promoting militarism; Christians, Jews & Jewish-Buddhists want to nuclear destroy Iran; Muslims are beheading other Muslims in Arabia, Syria & Iraq. All of these religious people believe in life after death. They are murdering people based on their ideas of life after death. Your views are spiritually immature & unrelated to the Buddha's noble quest.

:bigtears:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:17:30 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2017, 07:20:15 pm »
So here are some ideas, and a person can decide which group they best fit in:

1. There is no Reincarnation, no Rebirth, No Justice of Karmic Rebirths, No Heavens, No Hells, No Devas or Asuras or Demons or Supernatural Beings or Deities or Bodhisattvas or Ghosts or Anything like that, When a Person Dies they cease to exist forever and never come back or experience anything again. The end of suffering is non-existence from death.

2. The state of Nirvana or PariNirvana is not simply non-existence but perpetual relief from suffering which is not Non-Existence or Death. When one dies they are reborn in some way, non-experience can not be experienced and so one only experiences again.

3. There is Supernatural Justice and Management, there is good and evil and those who die as evil doers will be punished by bad results and those who die as doers of good will be rewarded for their merits, nothing goes unaccounted for, there are all sorts of things which may exist. One does not escape their deeds via death.

Those are the three main areas on the spectrum, the latter is full blown common Historical Buddhism or Buddhist spread and based superstition. The middle accepts some modicum of that, and the first strictly denies the ideas Buddhists are generally credited for.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2017, 07:28:20 pm »
I have asked you some clear cut things, there is no need to hide behind things, just be open.

You do not understand Buddhism & thus are a heretic.

Quote
1. Atheistic Materialist Buddhists deny Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Nirvana or PariNirvana as anything other than generally synonymous with Non-Existence and Total Death which they must suppose is the end of everything since they deny afterlife and experiential rebirth or reincarnation.

The language above is not Buddhist therefore it is heresy.

The Buddha never used the terms 'materialist' or 'atheist'.

Nirvana is the here & now end of suffering from the destruction of craving.

Nihilism is the belief a 'self' will end at 'death'.

Nihilism is not the belief the aggregates are impermanent & terminate when life ends.

Moral nihilism is the view there are no results of good & bad karma.

Eternalism is the belief a 'self' continues after 'death'.

'Death' does not refer to the termination of life but the idea a 'self' dies'. It is a self-view.

Quote
2. If there is suffering and the end of suffering is death, there is no reason not to kill yourself in order to attain "Non-Existence" which is the topic of this thread.

The end of suffering is not death. PLEASE STOP SLANDERING OTHERS & PLEASE STOP LYING.

Quote
3. There is nothing that Evildoers should fear regarding the Evil they do except the material concerns of getting away with it. There is no justice, judgment, repercussions, ordering system, ordering entities, watching, etc.

This is unrelated to the essence of Buddhism but ideas of moralists.

Today, the civilised world is close to finished. It is close to endtimes. Soon, the oligarchs may impose a dictatorship as they did in 1917 in Russia. The world is making you suffer. This is unBuddhist, heresy & blasphemy.

Quote
These views are plain to see in any Atheistic Materialistic Western Science Style Buddhist

This is silly. Today, Buddhists are murdering Rohingya & other minorities in Burma; Sri Lankan monks are promoting militarism; Christians, Jews & Jewish-Buddhists want to nuclear destroy Iran; Muslims are beheading other Muslims in Arabia, Syria & Iraq. All of these religious people believe in life after death. They are murdering people based on their ideas of life after death. Your views are spiritually immature & unrelated to the Buddha's noble quest.

:bigtears:

Noble quest? To tell people that Death is the end of existence and suffering? Why are you calling me a Heretic when you are the one who won't call yourself a Buddhist yet keeps trying tomake Buddhism into Atheistic Western Materialistic Science? They are all killing, what does it matter to you that they are killing? Those people being killed simply cease to exist and thus attain an identical status to the Buddha, Dead and Not Suffering, Never to Return. Why would you hide and deny your own ideas and their implications?

The Buddha did not use any of these words because the Buddha did not speak English. Hopefully you can understand English though. When a person says "when you die you no longer experience anything forever" they are saying you do not exist when you die. This is very simple. So if Death ceases all suffering for oneself, then the solution was simply Death. Why are you now denying this?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 07:49:32 pm »
Noble quest? To tell people that Death is the end of existence and suffering? Why are you calling me a Heretic when you are the one...

This is rude & disrespectful to others because you have been informed many times that I & others do not believe death is the end of suffering.

The word "existence" ("bhava") in Buddhism means the sense of idea that "I" exist. This is egoism. This is a thought.

Nirvana is the end of "ego-existence" rather than the end of life.

In Buddhism, the 1st clear realisation of this is called Stream-Entry. Stream-enterers are part of the Noble Sangha. They are to be honored. But you dishonor those who believe in the non-existence of "self".

Your posts are 100% morality. They are 1/3 of the Eightfold Path rather than 100% of the Eightfold Path.

Your posts mundane dhamma rather than supramundane dhamma. Mundane dhamma is peripheral to the Buddha's teachings.

The Buddha's quest was to end suffering in individuals rather than create a perfect world.

Quote
The Buddha did not use any of these words because the Buddha did not speak English.

The Buddha certainly used words that are translated as "material" and "god" however he never labelled anyone a "materialist" or "atheist".

Regards  :namaste:

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 07:54:13 pm »
But if you are claiming that when one dies they cease to exist forever and never return or experience again, then why are you denying that death differs from the implication that PariNirvana is being non-existent forever? You call me heretic, evildoer, bad m, etc, why not face what you yourself are implying or saying using plain old English?

You denied that one exists or is reborn after they die. You agree one who is dead does not and can't suffer because they don't exist and never return. So what is the problem here? Just speak in English.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2017, 07:57:11 pm »
3. There is Supernatural Justice and Management, there is good and evil and those who die as evil doers will be punished by bad results and those who die as doers of good will be rewarded for their merits, nothing goes unaccounted for, there are all sorts of things which may exist. One does not escape their deeds via death.

This is superstition. Even if it was true, the majority of the world will not really believe it. This is why the majority of the world, especially the religions people, commit evil. 

Religion teaches these things so the priests & monks can make money & gain power over people. These teachings are ancient history because the world is now 80% immoral. It simply doesn't work.

In short, I may be tough in debate but in life I am super moral yet I do not believe in reincarnation. My super morality totally refutes your false views that non-rebirthers are immoral.

Your ideas are 100% wrong because I heard there are more religious people in prison than non-religious people.

:nopity:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 08:01:32 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2017, 08:17:05 pm »
But if you are claiming that when one dies they cease to exist forever and never return or experience again, then why are you denying that death differs from the implication that PariNirvana is being non-existent forever? You call me heretic, evildoer, bad m, etc, why not face what you yourself are implying or saying using plain old English?

You denied that one exists or is reborn after they die. You agree one who is dead does not and can't suffer because they don't exist and never return. So what is the problem here? Just speak in English.

The Buddha did not speak English but you are speaking English. Worse, you are a MATERIALIST  :teehee: because you interpret words materialistically rather than mentally. For example, "existence" ("bhava") in Buddhism does not necessarily refer to material existence as you materialistically believe but can refer to the feeling of existing as a 'self' or a 'me'.

To repeat for the last time:

* "Death" is the idea a "self" dies. A Buddha has no self therefore "death" does not occur to a Buddha. This is written in many suttas.

* I did not deny a self is not reborn after they die because generally the self idea is always being reborn in the mind of an unenlightened person. For example, the self a person believes they were at 4 years old died when they were 5 years old and a new self was born at 6 years old. The self-image is always dying & being reborn, such as when a person believes they are Christian but then later changes to believe they are a Buddhist. The Christian dies & the Buddhist is reborn.

* If a mind without self has never been experienced, that mind is not enlightened in Buddhism. If so, that mind does not really understand Buddhism in its entirety. Instead, unenlightened Buddhists are materialists because they believe rebirth is material (into a new physical body) rather than mental (rebirth of self-view).

* It is those who try to demonize others as 'materialists' who are really the materialists. The Artis Magistra is a materialist par excellence because The Artist Magistra believes 'birth', 'existence', 'death' & 'rebirth' are material or physical.

* The Artis Magistra - pot calling the kettle black.

 :teehee:  :namaste:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 08:36:51 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2017, 08:39:29 pm »
I never said what I believe, I am asking what you believe though.

The word death typically means to people the cessation of all functioning or experiencing of anything, non-existence. Atheistic and Materialistic people (I mean the philosophy of Materialism) typically take death to mean permanent non-existence, never to experience again. You said Buddhism was likely Materialistic Science and does not support the idea of life beyond death or return after death. If you do not believe this though, then clarify these particular points please.

I offered 3 views earlier, I did not state which one I gravitate towards for certain.

This is not about accusations but about honesty. What do you really think or believe happens when anyone or anything truly dies? Do you think they experience again or not? It is a very simple question. If you believe they do not experience again then Evil is of no major concern, one can simply escape harm via death. If one does return in some way, then Evil may be of concern, as one would be unable to escape via death. Simple as that.

Offline ground

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2017, 08:59:06 pm »
...you are a MATERIALIST  :teehee: because you interpret words materialistically rather than mentally. ..
Whether one perceives consciousness arising dependent on the material body or one perceives the material body arising dependent on consciousness, both views are equally valid. What seems to be a contradiction between these two views vanishes when perception ceases.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 09:01:07 pm by ground »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2017, 08:59:27 pm »
The word death typically means to people the cessation of all functioning or experiencing of anything, non-existence.

No. Only materialists believe this.

In Pali, there are many words for the ending of life, such as "end of time". The word "death" ("marana") refers to the death of "a being" ("satta"). A "satta" is defined as a view or mental state of attachment (refer to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2).

Similarly, the word "death" in the New Testament & can occur in the Old Testament most often refers to spiritual death rather than physical death.

Similarly, in Sufism & Taoism, are the phrase "die before dying" and "the sage has no place for death to enter". These are spiritual death rather than material death.

Was Buddha referring to material death below:

Quote
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already . Dhammapada

 :listen:

 


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