Author Topic: Craving for Non-Existence  (Read 3097 times)

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2017, 09:03:06 pm »
Whether one perceives consciousness arising dependent on the material body or one perceives the material body arising dependent on consciousness, both views is equally valid. What seems to be a contradiction between these two views vanishes when perception ceases.

End of perception (nirodha samapatti) is not Buddhist enlightenment but an immaterial state of unconsciousness.

What you are calling the end of perception is not really the end of perception otherwise it could not be known or perceived.

Material existence of consciousness is dependent on the material body where as the mental existence (awareness) of the physical body is dependent upon consciousness.

You sound confused, here, thrice.  :teehee:


Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2026
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2017, 09:06:58 pm »
Whether one perceives consciousness arising dependent on the material body or one perceives the material body arising dependent on consciousness, both views is equally valid. What seems to be a contradiction between these two views vanishes when perception ceases.


End of perception (nirodha samapatti) is not Buddhist enlightenment but an immaterial state of unconsciousness.

Material existence of consciousness is dependent on the material body where as the mental existence (awareness) of the physical body is dependent upon consciousness.

You sound confused, here, twice.  :teehee:


Cessation of perception is pristine cognition which is the radiant lucidity of pure knowing of the ground of being which is spontaneously present.

Quote
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 09:09:13 pm by ground »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2017, 09:10:08 pm »
Cessation of perception is pristine cognition which is the radiant lucidity of pure knowing of the ground of being which is spontaneously present.

No. 'Pristine cognition radiant lucidity of pure knowing' is something that is perceived.

If it was not perceived, it could not be known & described.

The only state of total non-perception is nirodha samapatti, which is essentially unconsciousness.  :namaste:

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2026
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2017, 09:11:53 pm »
Cessation of perception is pristine cognition which is the radiant lucidity of pure knowing of the ground of being which is spontaneously present.


No. 'Pristine cognition radiant lucidity of pure knowing' is something that is perceived.

If it was not perceived, it could not be known & described.

The only state of total non-perception is nirodha samapatti, which is essentially unconsciousness.  :namaste:


Please be referred to
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/theravadan-reflections-on-the-natural-great-perfection-(dzogchen)/

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2017, 09:13:46 pm »
]"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html


This quote only describes the aggregates unaffected & unpolluted by ignorance & suffering. It does not describe the end of perception. If it was about the end of perception, it could not be perceived. For example:

Quote
Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying at Uruvela... for seven days experiencing the bliss of liberation. Then, at the end of those seven days, the Lord emerged from that concentration and gave well-reasoned attention during the middle watch of the night to dependent arising in reverse order, thus:

This not being, that is not;
from the cessation of this, that ceases.

That is:

from the cessation of ignorance, volitional activities cease;
from the cessation of volitional activities, consciousness ceases;
from the cessation of consciousness, name-and-form ceases;
from the cessation of name-and-form, the sixfold base ceases;
from the cessation of the sixfold base, contact ceases;
from the cessation of contact, feeling ceases;
from the cessation of feeling, craving ceases;
from the cessation of craving, grasping ceases;
from the cessation of grasping, being ceases;
from the cessation of being, birth ceases;
from the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease.
This is the ceasing of this whole mass of suffering.

Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance:


When things become manifest
To the ardent meditating brahman,
All his doubts then vanish since he has known
The utter destruction of conditions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.02.irel.html


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2017, 09:18:49 pm »
Please be referred to
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/theravadan-reflections-on-the-natural-great-perfection-(dzogchen)/

if this supports your view, it is delusion, i.e., a delusion of insight.

I too have meditated (in the past) and believed perception to cease when gross/ordinary labelling of objects & phenomena cease.

However, perception (sanna) is still functioning.

If anything can be described it has been perceived because there cannot be a consciousness without perception.  :eek:

Quote
Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html


Quote
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2026
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2017, 09:20:08 pm »
Quote
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html




Quote
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. ...
From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2026
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2017, 09:28:11 pm »
...
I too have meditated (in the past) and believed perception to cease when gross/ordinary labelling of objects & phenomena cease.

However, perception (sanna) is still functioning. ...

Meditation is wrong in this context. Why? Because it entails clinging to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2017, 09:28:50 pm »

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

This is superstitious clinging to misinterpretation of words. All this means is when ignorance ceases, consciousness controlled & polluted by ignorance ceases.

For those that have not directly perceived dependent origination & cessation, these quotes, which show the mind remains conscious, may help:  :listen:

Quote
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html

On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established,[11] with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it, & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html

You seem to be suggesting when a Buddha ends ignorance, a Buddha is no longer conscious.  :teehee: :lmfao:

This quote may help:

Quote
Discernment (wisdom) & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them."

 I am now old, aged, burdened with years, advanced in life, and come to the last stage: my years have turned eighty.... Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.



Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2017, 09:30:21 pm »
Meditation is wrong in this context. Why? Because it entails clinging to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

Non-sense.  Perception is not clinging. Clinging is not perception. Have fun with Mahayana. :namaste:

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2026
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2017, 09:31:13 pm »
You seem to be suggesting when a Buddha ends ignorance, a Buddha is no longer conscious.  :teehee: :lmfao:
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2017, 09:33:05 pm »
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.

Buddha-Dhamma is what is suitable.  :dharma:  Rather than teachings of those engaged in sexual misconduct with students.

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2026
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2017, 09:36:20 pm »
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.


Buddha-Dhamma is what is suitable.   :dharma: Rather than teachings of those engaged in sexual misconduct with students.


your words are out of context of what I have said and quoted and referred to.

Quote
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html


Quote
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html


Now why do you think Bāhiya only needed hearing? It was because he was suitable.

In this vein [the state of] dzogchen which involves no perception can be accessed only through direct introduction of the suitable. Meditation is not only useless but a hindrance when a conscious being is suitable.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 09:54:41 pm by ground »

Offline Pixie

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • Buddhism Without Boundaries
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2017, 11:07:47 pm »

Quote from: ground
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.


It is obvious that you are not a Dzogchen teacher - and not authorised to make such rash comments to others on the internet.

.

May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: Craving for Non-Existence
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2017, 11:25:55 pm »
The word death typically means to people the cessation of all functioning or experiencing of anything, non-existence.

No. Only materialists believe this.

In Pali, there are many words for the ending of life, such as "end of time". The word "death" ("marana") refers to the death of "a being" ("satta"). A "satta" is defined as a view or mental state of attachment (refer to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2).

Similarly, the word "death" in the New Testament & can occur in the Old Testament most often refers to spiritual death rather than physical death.

Similarly, in Sufism & Taoism, are the phrase "die before dying" and "the sage has no place for death to enter". These are spiritual death rather than material death.

Was Buddha referring to material death below:

Quote
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already . Dhammapada

 :listen:

So can you clearly state that one does not die or cease to stop experiencing information upon the death of the body?

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal