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Schools of Buddhism => Theravada => Topic started by: Su Onn on August 02, 2015, 09:22:33 pm

Title: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Su Onn on August 02, 2015, 09:22:33 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: cosmic_dog_magic on August 02, 2015, 10:43:02 pm
I see it as perpetuating another mode of thought, like nihilism.  It's too rigid and concrete, saying that non-existence is an actual thing, or something you have to strive to achieve.  That teaching seems to be saying, don't be too extreme with your attitude, just learn to "simply be" with each moment, not trying to change the fact of what is.  middle way.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Ryan_K321 on August 16, 2015, 06:22:35 am
Non-existence depends on existence.

Non-existence is also translated as aversion, hatred, and non-being. So if you have a painful feeling in your body, you would be craving for the non-existence of that painful feeling.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on August 16, 2015, 08:03:51 am
Quote
It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth?


Craving, clinging, and attachment to any state is what causes dukkha (pain, suffering, birth, aging, disease, death, and rebirth, what Buddha called this entire ball of suffering).  It is not "non-existence" or anything else which causes suffering, but "craving for or of it", which cause suffering as they are all impermanent and therefore dependently arisen and will eventually disappoint and dissatisfy us when they are taken away or change state.

A word most easily understood in this regard is "addiction" as we suffer, when that to which we have become addicted is no longer available to us or is abruptly taken away.  Think of the alcohol or drug detoxification process.

Suffering or dukkha is simply another state or condition.  It is the result of our addictions (desire, clinging, attachment) and is manifested or arises when a change of state, which moves us from satisfaction to dissatisfaction takes place due to impermanence of all dependently arisen phenomena.

Quote
SN 45.165 PTS: S v 56 CDB ii 1561
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering
translated from the Pali by
Maurice O'Connell Walshe
© 2009

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."

*see notes from source for more detailed explanation:  [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.165.wlsh.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.165.wlsh.html[/url])


Consider that you may be confusing a state to which attachment, clinging, and craving cause suffering with the cause of dukkha itself.

If you have no desire or addiction for sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence, and do not cling, or crave any of these states or conditions, then there well be no dukkha resulting when they inevitably are removed due to their impermanent nature.

So, Buddha asks over and over again:  "What is the point of becoming attached to that which is impermanent?"....even "non-existence" is impermanent.  Therefore, what point in attachment to non-existence unless your aim is to inevitably suffer when it changes state?

Here is my favorite story as to the futility of attachment:

Quote
Kisagotami, the Mother With the Dead Child 

There lived in Savatthi a girl called Gotami, in poor circumstances, belonging to the lowest caste. Because she was very thin and haggard, a real bean-pole, everyone called her the haggard (kisa) Gotami. When one saw her walking around, tall and thin, one could not fathom her inner riches. One could truly say about her:

 Her beauty was an inner one
One could not see its spark outside.
She was despondent because due to her poverty and lack of attractiveness, she was unable to find a husband. But one day it suddenly happened that a rich merchant who appreciated her inner wealth and considered that more important than her outer appearance, married her. However, the husband's family despised her because of her caste, her poverty and her looks. This animosity caused her great unhappiness, especially because of her beloved husband, who found himself in conflict between love for his parents and love for his wife.

But when Kisagotami gave birth to a baby boy, the husband's whole clan finally accepted her as the mother of the son and heir. Her relief about this changed attitude was immense and a great burden was taken from her. Now she was totally happy and contented. The boy grew up and soon started playing outside, full of energy and joy. However, one day her happiness showed itself to be based on an illusion. Her little son died suddenly. She did not know how to bear this tragedy. Beyond the usual love of a mother for her child, she had been especially attached to this child, because he was the guarantee for her marital bliss and her peace of mind.

His death made her fear that her husband's family would despise her again and that they would blame her, saying she was karmically unable to have a son. "Kisagotami must have done some very despicable deeds, to have this happen to her," people would say. And even her husband might reject her now. All such ideas and imaginings revolved in her mind and a dark cloud descended upon her. She simply refused to accept the fact that the child was dead, and became obsessed with the fantasy that her child was only sick and that she had to get medicine for him.

With the dead child in her arms, she ran away from her home and went from house to house asking for medicine for her little son. At every door she begged: "Please give me some medicine for my child," but the people replied that medicine would not help any more, the child was dead. But she did not understand what they were saying to her, because in her mind she had resolved that the child was not dead. Others laughed at her without compassion. But amongst the many selfish and unsympathetic people, she also met a wise and kind person who recognized that her mind was deranged because of grief. He advised her to visit the best physician, namely the Buddha of the ten powers, who would know the right remedy.

She immediately followed this advice and ran to Prince Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery, where the Buddha was staying. She arrived in the middle of a discourse being given by the Buddha to a large congregation. Totally despairing and in tears, with the corpse of the child in her arms, she begged the Buddha, "Master, give me medicine for my son." The Awakened One interrupted his teaching and replied kindly that he knew of a medicine. Hopefully she inquired what that could be.

"Mustard seeds," the Enlightened One replied, astounding everyone present.

Joyfully, Kisagotami inquired where she should go to obtain them and what kind to get. The Buddha replied that she need only bring a very small quantity from any house where no one had died. She trusted the Blessed One's words and went to the town. At the first house, she asked whether any mustard seeds were available. "Certainly," was the reply. "Could I have a few seeds?" she inquired. "Of course," she was told, and some seeds were brought to her. But then she asked the second question, which she had not deemed quite as important: whether anyone had died in this house. "But of course," the people told her. And so it went everywhere. In one house someone; had died recently, in another house some time ago. She could not find any house where no one had died. The dead ones are more numerous than the living ones, she was told.

Towards evening she finally realized that not only she was stricken by the death of a loved one, but this was the common human fate. What no words had been able to convey to her, her own experience — going from door to door — made clear to her. She understood the law of existence, the being fettered to the always re-occurring deaths. In this way, the Buddha was able to heal her obsession and bring her to an acceptance of reality. Kisagotami no longer refused to believe that her child was dead, but understood that death is the destiny of all beings.

Such were the means by which the Buddha could heal grief-stricken people and bring them out of their overpowering delusion, in which the whole world was perceived only in the perspective of their loss. Once, when someone was lamenting the death of his father, the Buddha asked him which father he meant: the father of this life, or the last life, or the one before that. Because if one wanted to grieve, then it would be just as well not only to feel sorrow for the one father. (Pv 8, J 352).

Another time a grief-stricken person was able to see reality when the Buddha pointed out to him that his son would be reborn and that he was only lamenting for an empty shell. (Pv 12, J 354).

After Kisagotami had come to her senses, she took the child's lifeless body to the cemetery and returned to the Enlightened One. He asked her whether she had brought any mustard seed. She gratefully explained how she had been cured by the Blessed One. Thereupon the Master spoke the following verse to her:

 In flocks and children finding delight,
with a mind clinging — just such a man
death seizes and carries away,
as a great flood, a sleeping village.
— Dhp 287

Because her mind had matured and she had won insight into reality, it was possible for her to become a stream-winner after hearing the Buddha proclaim just that one verse. She asked for admittance into the Order of Nuns.

After having spent some time as a nun, practicing and studying Dhamma, she watched her lamp one evening and compared the restlessly hissing flames with the ups and downs of life and death. Thereupon the Blessed One came to her and again spoke a short verse:

 Though one should live a hundred years
not seeing the Deathless State,
yet better is life for a single day,
seeing the Deathless State.
— Dhp 114

When she heard these lines, she was able to shed all fetters and became one of the arahants, the fully Enlightened Ones.


source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel292.html#kisa (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel292.html#kisa)

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: KarmaDrakpaYeshe on March 11, 2016, 09:41:16 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
It would be very difficult to actually legitimately crave for that. In fact it would signal serious psychological problems. You may think you are "craving for that" but in reality is just wishing 90 percent of the time and that is A OK :)

study the 12 links of dependent origination and you will see how craving for something like that would be very difficult to achieve unless you somehow brainwashed yourself into it through a complicated series of things that shouldn't be discussed.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Dmytro on April 03, 2016, 05:41:06 am
It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth?

Vibhava-ta.nhaa (sometimes translated as "craving for non-existence") is a craving associated with a belief in a cessation of existence after the death of the body.

It can be translated more accurately as 'craving for annihilation with the death of the body'.

Since it is based on wrong view, it leads to further rebirth.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Arkena on May 27, 2017, 10:00:28 am
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
It would be very difficult to actually legitimately crave for that. In fact it would signal serious psychological problems. You may think you are "craving for that" but in reality is just wishing 90 percent of the time and that is A OK :)

study the 12 links of dependent origination and you will see how craving for something like that would be very difficult to achieve unless you somehow brainwashed yourself into it through a complicated series of things that shouldn't be discussed.

Honestly and with sadness i can say that when i was suicidal due to poor mental health i craved to simply not exist, to stop experiencing suffering anymore...

Hope no one has to go through that...
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on June 08, 2017, 01:49:21 am
Honestly and with sadness i can say that when i was suicidal due to poor mental health i craved to simply not exist, to stop experiencing suffering anymore...

That's a good example of the craving for non-existence. 

( I hope you're doing OK now )
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on June 20, 2017, 11:35:14 am
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
I take 'rebirth' to stand for the opposite of liberation and craving for non-existence because of not bearing existence is certainly the opposite of liberation.

It is similar to craving meditative absorptions because of not bearing ordinary mind existence. This is also said to entail rebirth.

Either there is liberation in every day life or there is 'rebirth'.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: AlwaysDayAfterYesterday on June 20, 2017, 01:15:06 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming

There are four.  What's missing?  The one thing hidden in Buddhism, which is the result of involution and evolution.  With number 1, you are non-existent, or at least not manifest into a form / self.  With number 2, you have the desire to exist, but existence requires both knowledge and wisdom.
With 3, you are developing (evolution), which requires suffering as a prerequisite.  Following the four Noble Truths, we have this:

Note where I have [added] my own view. 

1. Suffering exists in everyone’s life.
[Suffering is prerequisite to removal of suffering]

2. The causes of suffering are greed, anger, and ignorance.
[For every joy you take, there is a price to pay]

3. Nirvana, the extinction of suffering, is possible for everyone.
[For every price you pay, there is a joy – Suffer on Purpose]

4. Nirvana is achieved by following the Noble Eightfold Path.
[Compassion and the Suffering Servant]

This follows on the heels of an aphorism, which states, "For every joy, there is a price to pay."  In the case of existence, it is the prerequisite of suffering.  Eliminating suffering is not the extinction of the person, but the arrival and birth of the true Self in Sattva, or the end as the beginning.  The Being you are has not yet been realized as long as you are here in the Triloka of lower six realms.  You are a child in a womb developing mental organs (Vijñāna). 

See the attached outline of all 10 realms in association with personal development attached.  Enlarge on a PDF viewer. 

4.  Being (Sattva)

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on June 20, 2017, 02:09:37 pm

Honestly and with sadness i can say that when i was suicidal due to poor mental health i craved to simply not exist, to stop experiencing suffering anymore...

Hope no one has to go through that...

Yes. I concur with Spiny Norman. This is a good example of the craving for non-existence. 

(I also hope you're doing OK now. Please communicate with us if you need to).

From the perspective of Buddhist theory, what makes it 'craving for non-existence' is the thinking that "I" do not want to exist.

When the mind has an enlightened view, it does not view painful feelings as an "I" or "self" therefore it does not manifest craving for non-existence.

To quote:


Quote
How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach. Iti 49

 :namaste:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Rahul on June 20, 2017, 08:22:34 pm
The one thing hidden in Buddhism, ...
There is nothing hidden in Buddha's teachings. He spoke precisely, unambiguously, and explained in detail. Before his nirvana, he did mention to his followers that everything that is needed to attain nirvana, had been clearly and precisely taught by him, and that he didn't hold back any secrets. And he discouraged his disciples to speculate and indulge about the things he thought were unrelated or unnecessary for nirvana.

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: AlwaysDayAfterYesterday on June 21, 2017, 06:26:17 am
The one thing hidden in Buddhism, ...
There is nothing hidden in Buddha's teachings. He spoke precisely, unambiguously, and explained in detail. Before his nirvana, he did mention to his followers that everything that is needed to attain nirvana, had been clearly and precisely taught by him, and that he didn't hold back any secrets. And he discouraged his disciples to speculate and indulge about the things he thought were unrelated or unnecessary for nirvana.

In the Diamond Sutra, there are 10 directions mentioned, but only nine given in the text.  North, South, East, West, Past, Present, Future, Above, Below.  What is the hidden direction?  Inside--YOU.  You are what is hidden in the text.  Lord / Ishvara is given as our freedom in the Triloka.  All Sutras are threads used in our robe.  In other words, your future Being (Sattva) is the last direction.  In the opening of the Diamond Sutra, the first opening chapter is about putting on the Robe (body in Sattva) and heading to town (Tamas).  Begging and the bowl are food (in all scripture, knowledge).  We are always here with an assembly of others in birth, or our kinsman.  On return, we hang the robe, clean the bowl, wash the feed and take our seat in the Assembly.  All of the activities of the Sangha are mirrored below in this world in the form of exoteric practices.  Those practices mirror the symbolism of the truth above in Sattva.  Literally, we meditate this world into existence using Maya as our fabric and Sutra as our thread.  Words and Letters.  As the Dhammapada states, "With your mind, you make the world." 

You are very correct that all has been said.  Wrong view and clinging to this side of the equation is the problem.  Above, you say this:  "He spoke precisely, unambiguously, and explained in detail."

Yes, but not arranged into a correct view, which I have done below.  Look over this simple PDF.  I have a larger work including all the lists of 10, 9 and so on from Sutras across the territory.  Sutras are threads meant to be sown into the larger body.  You must arrange them, as well as learn the Sanskrit words by association to their meaning to the thread.  Each patch of your robe is sown with these threads.  Take this seriously and do not simply blow me off with bias.  Take a look and consider what I have realized.  It takes ALL relatives to make Absolute.  Dharma is as much about arranging relatives in order as it is about valuing each part of the whole. 

Take a look.  See that this arrangement of elements in order allows for other realizations to grow.  Seeds must be opened to make the flower from the mud.  This Mystery is far from solved.  Emptiness is only half of the work to then cultivate what is gathered as seed. 
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Samana Johann on June 21, 2017, 05:47:21 pm

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming

There are four.  What's missing?  The one thing hidden in Buddhism, which is the result of involution and evolution.  With number 1, you are non-existent, or at least not manifest into a form / self.  With number 2, you have the desire to exist, but existence requires both knowledge and wisdom.
With 3, you are developing (evolution), which requires suffering as a prerequisite. 

What a nonsens and contradiction: Wisdom is reason for birth and suffering..." Bith, Suffering followed by Saddha (eg. virtue) is the prerequisite of release.

Would be good if AlwaysDayAfterYesterday sort out his ideas to see the unhidden. For its defilement to believe that something was hidden by the Buddha, now thinking "I am the one who dis-covered".

Its of no merits to put one waste, defilement, and ideas, above the Dhamma. The bowl seems to be not cleaned proper and there are already planty of bacterials causing a masse of smell from fermentation. Since in some traditions they have started to eat own produced fermented food and not proper go for alms their teaching is like that.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Rahul on June 21, 2017, 11:35:58 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
To crave for anything (even for non-existence), 'you' must exist. You will exist in order to live your craving, and will be reborn to live it again. 

You might have noticed that sometimes the people we hated, would show up unexpectedly at unexpected places, hundreds of miles away in a new place. Why does it happen? We come face to face with them, to live our hatred to them.

You will be reborn to live whatever cravings or desires you have.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Samana Johann on June 21, 2017, 11:42:35 pm
Useful talk on the topic matter: Seeds of Becoming (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/seedsofbecoming_en.html)
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: AlwaysDayAfterYesterday on June 23, 2017, 05:04:19 am

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming

There are four.  What's missing?  The one thing hidden in Buddhism, which is the result of involution and evolution.  With number 1, you are non-existent, or at least not manifest into a form / self.  With number 2, you have the desire to exist, but existence requires both knowledge and wisdom.
With 3, you are developing (evolution), which requires suffering as a prerequisite. 

What a nonsens and contradiction: Wisdom is reason for birth and suffering..." Bith, Suffering followed by Saddha (eg. virtue) is the prerequisite of release.

Would be good if AlwaysDayAfterYesterday sort out his ideas to see the unhidden. For its defilement to believe that something was hidden by the Buddha, now thinking "I am the one who dis-covered".

Its of no merits to put one waste, defilement, and ideas, above the Dhamma. The bowl seems to be not cleaned proper and there are already planty of bacterials causing a masse of smell from fermentation. Since in some traditions they have started to eat own produced fermented food and not proper go for alms their teaching is like that.

In Zen, there are two aphorisms you could use to see that we are both saying the same: 

1.  Sickness and Medicine Cancel
2.  The same hand that gives sickness is the same hand that gives medicine

You are that hand.  If you are fatigued (sick), you need medicine (rest).  If you take too much medicine, the sickness reappears in a different form (laziness).  Only by mastery of both do you find the virtue.  Bliss is the virtue found once you master (cancel out) the need for the other two.  In this, you are not non-being, not becoming, but being.  Virtue.  Enlightenment of the field of emptiness is only noticing the potentiality of the space.  The other half of Nirvana is to see that there is no difference between this and what it produces in Maya.  BOTH are Nirvana.  Rebirth is not something you will avoid.  It's merely a changed state of mind when you find your place in creation.  This has always been hidden in Buddhism, because YOU are the thing you hide from.  Mastery overcomes this with truth, or Sattva.  You are the being (Sattva) and the Truth of why you are here.  When the student is ready (you), the Master appears (you again).  All four below never end.  Always for each. 

1. Non-being
2. Desire for Life
3. Becoming
4. Being
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: NiagaraGrrl on June 25, 2017, 03:03:40 pm
Author Su Onn
Member
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:


     I can feel how it (craving for non-existence) is pulling one towards re-birth, but it's harder to find the right metaphor or other way to say it.

     I've craved non-existence since I was about 8 years old but as a Catholic was taught it would bring the extreme suffering of eternal hell-fire.  As soon as I heard about reincarnation I believed in it (it explained - for one thing - a memory in my hands that my hands were too small for) and even before I began to study Buddhism I somehow knew that I had to learn a lot before I could get better birth circumstances (no, I didn't have that language to think about it with). Having gone into denial about having that craving, it was some decades into daily meditation before I met it again as an adult.

     The craving for non-existence feels quite dangerous and seems ugly, but its main face is sweet, sweet blackness. Bumbling around for words, I would say that it is the strength with which the craving pushes back against the ability to know anything that creates a skid in one's track, that warps any skillfulness (in the Buddhist sense) one may have developed or be developing. Having that warped-ness greatly increases the likelihood one will cause pain in an other, creating karma and pulling one back here with a lot more work to do.
     
     I'm sure all the posters here will clarify anything I get wrong or leave out. But if you reader/posters care about those who crave non-existence (and I'm sure you do), instead of offering me your sympathy I'd urge you to ask around your acquaintances and find all the ones who are quite satisfied to believe that existence stops when their body dies. They're looking forward to it, while I see that belief as a cop-out (wishful thinking) and am working on my own craving.
     
         I did say I was bumbling for words, and I left out some crucial part of what it feels like is happening. Although I am aware of the craving, nevertheless it is still out of my control to a degree (since otherwise it would be gone). It is my back braced against a stone cliff with soles of my feet pressed up against a steel wall that is closing in. There is a touch of abject fear, along with hatred of myself and of everything I have ever done to hurt someone and thereby deserve the misery I am awash in (Well, as an 8-year-old I was awash in it. As a long-time meditating adult I feel misery's fetid breath on my neck but am not quite awash, do not carry out revenges or hate people, etc.). But the amount of energy that is being generated is great, and the quality of the energy is not good. It's jagged and destructive, and makes one solid. It (pushing against existence, or craving non-existence) is massively significant and is crucial, crucial! to my safety. That's a little poetic license, but also points right to ego, or the house-builder, if you will. What I see is that, absurdly - or hilariously - once we are able to stop creating a self we will be able to stop craving the non-existence of it.
     
     So maybe that’s the crux I’ve been bumbling around trying to find. It would have to be the self, the concrete, faux-permanent ego, that craves non-existence. And the energy of the craving is feeding the self that is cultivating that craving. The self thus fed is gaining in crusty solid-self-feelingness and is far from able to find nirvana or resist rebirth. And one can't simply stay dead any more than one can simply stay alive.
     
     Thank you Su Onn for your original question. I feel that it has enabled me to poke a ray of sight into the heart of an ugly tangle that’s been plaguing me most likely for multiple lifetimes.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ratnashugden on July 25, 2017, 04:51:23 pm
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

Sent from my SM-J111F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 25, 2017, 05:23:40 pm
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

Sent from my SM-J111F using Tapatalk

When you think about it, do you really want that?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 25, 2017, 08:14:49 pm
When you think about it, do you really want that?

This shows clearly why accusations of 'not-a-Buddhist' occur.  ;D
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 25, 2017, 09:42:21 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:
To crave for anything (even for non-existence), 'you' must exist. You will exist in order to live your craving, and will be reborn to live it again. 

You might have noticed that sometimes the people we hated, would show up unexpectedly at unexpected places, hundreds of miles away in a new place. Why does it happen? We come face to face with them, to live our hatred to them.

You will be reborn to live whatever cravings or desires you have.

What happened to science?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 25, 2017, 09:44:25 pm
When you think about it, do you really want that?

This shows clearly why accusations of 'not-a-Buddhist' occur.  ;D

Yeah, you are probably right, as usual, since people are predictably silly to make such an assumption over a sincere question asking one to properly and thoroughly examine themselves. It is of course what I want for you though, immediately, and always, forever.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ratnashugden on July 25, 2017, 10:49:51 pm
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

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When you think about it, do you really want that?
Yes.
I read the sutta.
I understand the teaching, which is an authentic dharma doctrine.
I tested vipassana insight meditation as taught in the sutta, & I found it, the experience of anatta, to be true.
I'm still practising it.
Each meditation session being an opportunity to re-analyse it again to prove anatta to be a wrong view, but it isn't, therefore each session reaffirms the teaching in myself.

In my experience, abiding in the state of anatta bhavana, also makes me less susceptible to evil & black magic from it, & removes them fully/partially. The doctrine of anatta became a tool for spiritual/religious survival, which I can no longer do without. If I can't even survive spiritually/religiously, I can't do other things in life.

It's always right & safe to move closer towards spiritual/religious truths taught by the Buddha Sakyamuni, even though it can be perceived too be ambitious, from the secular life's point of view.

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Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 12:54:21 am
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

Sent from my SM-J111F using Tapatalk

Craving for non-existence is the opposite of realisation of anatta. In the best case it may lead to the formless dimension of nothingness.
Quote
'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment ...

'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment ...

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html[/url])

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 02:26:37 am
We do have to work for non-existence.
Realisation of anatta, non-self, is a prerequisite for the attainment of nirvana & anuttara samyak sambodhi, liberation from samsara & end of existence.
The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, traditionally recorded as the second discourse delivered by Buddha Sakyamuni, teaches this.

Sent from my SM-J111F using Tapatalk

When you think about it, do you really want that?
Yes.
I read the sutta.
I understand the teaching, which is an authentic dharma doctrine.
I tested vipassana insight meditation as taught in the sutta, & I found it, the experience of anatta, to be true.
I'm still practising it.
Each meditation session being an opportunity to re-analyse it again to prove anatta to be a wrong view, but it isn't, therefore each session reaffirms the teaching in myself.

In my experience, abiding in the state of anatta bhavana, also makes me less susceptible to evil & black magic from it, & removes them fully/partially. The doctrine of anatta became a tool for spiritual/religious survival, which I can no longer do without. If I can't even survive spiritually/religiously, I can't do other things in life.

It's always right & safe to move closer towards spiritual/religious truths taught by the Buddha Sakyamuni, even though it can be perceived too be ambitious, from the secular life's point of view.

Sent from my SM-J111F using Tapatalk

Very excellent reply. Thank you for making it and thinking about it. So when you will cease to exist, you will be gone forever. When everything ceases to exist, is it the goal that nothing ever is allowed to exist again or existing in any way?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 02:40:57 am
I have heard that some Brahmans said to the Buddha, you are a Nihilist, you want extinction, to cease to exist forever (referring to the meaning of the word Nirvana as extinguishing and putting out), but the reply to them was that such is a misunderstanding and that stable eternity beyond disturbance is sought, not non-existence or the end of all life.

So there seems to be a divergence of ideas in this regard. A group seeking annihilation and complete extinguishing of their own existence and possibly all existence whatsoever, and another view that Nirvana is experiential and people live and abide in it, perpetually serene and free from trouble and evil or disruptions, what is extinguished are their burning cravings which lead to troubles but not their experience or ability to exist or even perform.

The third view is that in some senses Jain and Buddhists and other meditative practitioners were seeking to become immune God-beings beyond the Devas.

So do you all take to the view that the goal is never existing or experiencing anything ever again? Yet you believe that if you do not completely cleanse yourself while in this body you will somehow return? The Materialist Atheists tend to say you will cease to exist forever when you die, so in that case the goal would be achieved by suicide, but even Nihilistic Buddhists might not consider such to be the case due to believing in genuine experiential reincarnation. Buddhists who believe in Experiential Nirvana also tend to believe in experiential reincarnation or even when they don't, their goal is still something experienced rather than not experienced and so they also refrain from suicide.

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 05:32:01 am
I have heard that some Brahmans said to the Buddha, you are a Nihilist, you want extinction, to cease to exist forever (referring to the meaning of the word Nirvana as extinguishing and putting out), but the reply to them was that such is a misunderstanding and that stable eternity beyond disturbance is sought, not non-existence or the end of all life.

While not all Buddhists & students interpret the teachings the same, at least most make an effort to reference their interpretations with some scripture. The most important virtue is honesty & to not misrepresent others. This idea about "eternity" is very strange & unusual.

As least according to the Pali, when the Buddha was accused of being a nihilist, he replied with the famous words, namely:

Quote
In the past & now, I teach only about suffering & freedom from/cessation of suffering. (MN 22)

 :dharma:


Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 08:20:10 am
I have heard that some Brahmans said to the Buddha, you are a Nihilist, you want extinction, to cease to exist forever (referring to the meaning of the word Nirvana as extinguishing and putting out), but the reply to them was that such is a misunderstanding and that stable eternity beyond disturbance is sought, not non-existence or the end of all life.

While not all Buddhists & students interpret the teachings the same, at least most make an effort to reference their interpretations with some scripture. The most important virtue is honesty & to not misrepresent others. This idea about "eternity" is very strange & unusual.

As least according to the Pali, when the Buddha was accused of being a nihilist, he replied with the famous words, namely:

Quote
In the past & now, I teach only about suffering & freedom from/cessation of suffering. (MN 22)

 :dharma:

So you don't know about this notion of Nirvana being experiential and lasting? Eternity means lasting forever, not ending or changing. You have heard nothing within your extensive studies in Buddhism and Buddhist scriptures of this and the denial that Nirvana refers to Non-Existence? Furthermore, you very likely do not believe in experiential reincarnation, and furthermore probably do not believe in attaining Nirvana through any practices really except via simply dying as one or anyone dies, or could you explain what you believe regarding these things with your more Western Materialistic Science Model? The simple and quick path to permanent non-existence would be suicide in that case, but Buddhists are generally not told that the quickest and simplest way to end personal suffering and existence is through suicide nor does that appear to be the Buddhas great contribution to the world.

I can't quote suttas from my phone without major trouble, so I expect you to do so since you are expertly efficient in that regard, but not to conceal what you have seen and well know to try to demonstrate things you prefer.

For example, why didn't the Buddha simply tell people to kill themselves in order to cease to exist and end suffering for themselves, as would be the Western Scientific Atheistic idea?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 09:15:32 am
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4216/how-is-nirvana-different-than-annihilation (http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4216/how-is-nirvana-different-than-annihilation)

" The Buddhist scriptures clearly & unambiguously have defined Nirvana as the here & now cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.

Nirvana is not anihilation. The ending of ego in the mind is the awakening of its spiritual faculties.

The end of ego is not 'death' but 'life'."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism))

"Precanonical Buddhism   Edit
Stanislaw Schayer, a Polish scholar, argued in the 1930s that the Nikayas preserve elements of an archaic form of Buddhism which is close to Brahmanical beliefs,[138][139][140][141] and survived in the Mahayana tradition.[142][143] Contrary to popular opinion, the Theravada and Mahayana traditions may be "divergent, but equally reliable records of a pre-canonical Buddhism which is now lost forever."[142] The Mahayana tradition may have preserved a very old, "pre-Canonical" and oral Buddhist tradition, which was largely, but not completely, left out of the Theravada-canon.[143]

Nirvana as consciousness
Regamy has identified four points which are central to Schayer's reconstruction of precanonical Buddhism:[144]

The Buddha was considered as an extraordinary being, in whom ultimate reality was embodied, and who was an incarnation of the mythical figure of the tathagata;
The Buddha's disciples were attracted to his spiritual charisma and supernatural authority;
Nirvana was conceived as the attainment of immortality, and the gaining of a deathless sphere from which there would be no falling back. This nirvana, as a transmundane reality or state, is incarnated in the person of the Buddha;
Nirvana can be reached because it already dwells as the inmost "consciousness" of the human being. It is a consciousness which is not subject to birth and death.
Conze mentions ideas like the "person" (pudgala), the assumption of an eternal "consciousness" in the saddhatusutra, the identification of the Absolute, as descriptors of Nirvana to mean an "invisible infinite consciousness, which shines everywhere" in Dighanikaya XI 85, and "traces of a belief in consciousness as the nonimpermanent centre of the personality which constitutes an absolute element in this contingent world."[143]

Nirvana as a location
Schayer's methodology has been used by M. Falk.[145][note 19] Falk details the precanonical Buddhist conceptions of the cosmos, nirvana, the Buddha, the path, and the saint. According to Falk, in the precanonical tradition, there is a threefold division of reality:[145]

The rupadhatu, the samsaric sphere of name and form (namarupa), in which ordinary beings live, die, and are reborn.
The arupadhatu, the sphere of "sheer nama," produced by samadhi, an ethereal realm frequented by yogins who are not completely liberated;
"Above" or "outside" these two realms is the realm of nirvana, the "amrta sphere," characterized by prajna. This nirvana is an "abode" or "place" which is gained by the enlightened holy man.[note 20]
According to Falk, this scheme is reflected in the precanonical conception of the path to liberation.[147] The nirvanic element, as an "essence" or pure consciousness, is immanent within samsara. The three bodies are concentric realities, which are stripped away or abandoned, leaving only the nirodhakaya of the liberated person.[147] Wynne notes that this pure consciousness was the central element in precanonical Buddhism:

Schayer referred to passages in which "consciousness" (vinnana) seems to be the ultimate reality or substratum (e.g. A I.10) 14 as well as the Saddhatu Sutra, which is not found in any canonical source but is cited in other Buddhist texts — it states that the personality (pudgala) consists of the six elements (dhatu) of earth, water, fire, wind, space and consciousness; Schayer noted that it related to other ancient Indian ideas. Keith’s argument is also based on the Saddhatu Sutra as well as "passages where we have explanations of Nirvana which echo the ideas of the Upanishads regarding the ultimate reality." He also refers to the doctrine of "a consciousness, originally pure, defiled by adventitious impurities."[148]

According to Lindtner, in precanonical Buddhism Nirvana is a physical place and the outer most realm of cosmos.[149] This is a place, states Lindtner, referred to as nirvanadhatu, without border-signs (animitta), it cannot be visualized (anidarsana), it is past the other six dhatus (beginning with earth and ending with vijñana) but is closest to akasa and vijñana. Once there in this is place of nirvana, one does not slip back, it is acyutapada. As opposed to this world, adds Lindtner, nirvana in early Buddhism is a pleasant place to be in, "it is sukha, things work well".[150][note 21]

Elements of this precanonical Buddhism may have survived the canonisation, and its subsequent filtering out of ideas, and re-appeared in Mahayana Buddhism.[138][140] According to Lindtner, the existence of multiple, and contradicting ideas, is also reflected in the works of 2nd-century Nagarjuna, who tried to harmonize these different and conflicting ideas in Buddhist literature that preceded him. According to Lindtner, this lead him to take a "paradoxical" stance, on nirvana, where he rejects any positive description and rejects any absolute, while paradoxically accepting all sides within the Buddhist traditions.[151]"

https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/ (https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/)

"Only after studying the Pali Canon did I discover that nirvana is a different event to death; it is life without death, and it is nourishing to all living things. Even though the body may yield to death, the mind in a state of nirvana does not die.

Other religions in India that were contemporary to Buddhism also used the word ‘nirvana’. Leaders of these religions used to send their men to ask the Buddha about his version of nirvana. Their meaning might have been ‘death’ (these were the peoples of south India). We may conclude, therefore, that nirvana was the most important subject of these people. One such group might have interpreted the word as ‘death’ and taught that as the meaning in Southeast Asia before Buddhism spread throughout the area. It was probably the same in the case of the word ‘atman’ (self).

The Buddha went in search of nirvana—in the sense of total extinction of suffering, rather than in the sense of it meaning death—with the help of leaders of various religious sects existing in India during that period. The highest realm he found was ‘the realm of neither-perception-nor-nonperception’, that is ‘the calmness of the mind wherein there is neither death nor nondeath’. This he did not accept as being the ultimate, and continued in his search. Finally, he reached nirvana, the cool state of mind resulting from the extinction of defilements, and he termed it ‘the cessation of suffering’. The more one’s defilements decrease, the more the coolness increases. This continues until the greatest degree of coolness is reached after all of one’s impurities have been extinguished. Nirvana is the coolness resulting from the extinction of defilements whether they become extinct of themselves or by one’s effort.
Defilements are compounded things­—they have birth and they have death. According to the Pali Canon, this fact is an indication that something is a defilement. When causal conditions are not present, defilements simply become extinct. Even though the extinction may be temporary, even though there is only temporary coolness, the phenomenon has the real sense of nirvana. Hence, temporary nirvana does exist for those who have some impurities left; temporary nirvana nourishes all sentient beings. If defilements were with us day and night without ceasing, who would ever stand them? Living things would either die, or become insane first and then die. One survives because there are periods when the fires of defilements do not burn. Periodical nirvana keeps all of us alive and well, and is a nourishing condition, normal to life.

Why don’t we know or feel thankful for this kind of nirvana? Fortunately, it is our instinct to acquire it. Whatever has any heart and mind will look for periods when defilements, or strong desires, are absent. If a living thing maintains unceasing desire, it will have to die. Therefore, an infant knows how to suck milk and a ­mosquito knows how to suck blood, in order to keep itself alive. Our instincts inherently have such a quality; that is to say, we instinctively go in search of spans of time when the mind is free from defilement or desire. Whenever it happens, a little nirvana always comes in. And the phenomenon will continue until one learns how to convert it into permanent or complete nirvana. This will not be death, but nondeath, especially of one’s mind. Those who see this truth will realise by themselves that we all survive because of this kind of nirvana, and not solely because of food with which we are infatuated.

The coolness and calmness which everyone wants is the meaning of nirvana, but most people misunderstand it and go towards fiery sensual pleasures instead. What they then receive is false nirvana. Such practices have been in existence since the time of the Buddha or even before that period as seen in the sixty-two views of the Brahma­jala sutta.

The supreme state of nirvana is attained when all the fires of defilement are extinguished. The highest attainment in Buddhism, as stated by the Buddha, involves the extinction of lust, anger, and delusion. That is the ultimate extinction of all the fires, and the subsequent coolness is as supreme as life can attain.

Nirvana is not the mind, but the state which the mind can achieve. The Buddha referred to it as a sphere to be reached by mindfulness and wisdom. Visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, and tangible objects are of the material sphere, the physical sphere. The sphere of unbounded space and other spheres up to the sphere of neither-perception­-nor-nonperception are mental spheres that the mind can reach. However, nirvana is a sphere of wisdom which mindful, wise people may perceive or attain. Nirvana, therefore, may be considered to be something that nature holds for human beings of a higher spiritual level. We should consider this fact in order that both nirvana and all of us do not exist in vain. Every one of us has the mindfulness and the wisdom to sense nirvana. Please don’t let it all go to waste.
The sphere of nirvana is something that naturally exists for people to attain. It is like precious medicine which can extinguish all kinds of suffering. No ordinary medicine can ever relieve the real suffering or disease which exists, disease caused by defilements which can only be cured by the extinction of those defilements. This sickness is the utmost ailment of the soul, hidden secretly in us and secretly tormenting us. Whoever extinguishes it will be the one who reaches the pinnacle of being human.

Synonyms of nirvana are numerous: ‘deathless­ness’, ‘permanence’, ‘peace’, ‘the state of being without fear or danger’, ‘health’, ‘the state of being without disease’, ‘freedom’, ‘emancipation’, ‘the shelter’, ‘the refuge’, ‘the stronghold’, the float for people who have fallen into the water’, ‘the highest gain’, ‘the highest bliss’, ‘the further shore’, ‘the place one will reach in the future when the physical and mental constitution of the body comes to an end’, and so on. The expression which best conveys the meaning of nirvana is ‘the cessation of suffering’, but it is not interesting enough for those who do not feel that they are suffering. For them, there is no suffering to extinguish. Once they are told that nirvana is a new life, a life in which there is a quenching of thirst, or a life which is beyond the positive or negative, then they become extremely interested. For each individual we must have a particular translation of the word ‘nirvana’, which is not at all easy. Deep down, everybody wants nirvana, but they are not conscious of that fact."

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/4068/how-can-nirvana-nibbana-be-permanent (https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/4068/how-can-nirvana-nibbana-be-permanent)

http://www.buddhism.org/?p=786 (http://www.buddhism.org/?p=786)

http://www.sptimmortalityproject.com/background/buddhist-views-of-the-afterlife/ (http://www.sptimmortalityproject.com/background/buddhist-views-of-the-afterlife/)

https://www.quora.com/If-the-goal-of-Buddhism-is-to-break-the-cycle-of-life-and-death-and-reach-Nirvana-or-Buddhahood-how-is-this-compatible-with-the-idea-of-impermanence (https://www.quora.com/If-the-goal-of-Buddhism-is-to-break-the-cycle-of-life-and-death-and-reach-Nirvana-or-Buddhahood-how-is-this-compatible-with-the-idea-of-impermanence)

I don't think the Buddha had intended to create this much confusion.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/2122/secular-buddhism-and-suicide (https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/2122/secular-buddhism-and-suicide)

Anyway, there seems to be evidence suggesting this idea was not originally overly complex or difficult. Since people suffer due to changes and ups and downs and gain and loss and life and death, the idea seemed to be to find a way to transcend these things which cause suffering, and the idea was quite strong in Buddhist cosmology that a Buddha attaining total Nirvana simply transcends the ups and downs and becomes a kind of immortal figure who is always, not dying, not suffering, but still Awake, still Aware, and not participating in suffering or contributing to it, they aren't ignorantly greedy for the wrong things, but are forever free from it. Not just dead.

This just dead idea is silly and doesn't fit well with generations of Buddhist writing and efforts and ideas. If its just dead, and there is no returning from death, then suicide is indeed the most efficient option for ending everything in such a worldview.

The final attainment was considered the state where one no longer turns back grasping, it was perpetuity rather than death and life and pain and crazy flux.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 05:36:40 pm
So you don't know about this notion of Nirvana being experiential and lasting? Eternity means lasting forever, not ending or changing.

I have never read Nirvana described as "eternal" or as "lasting forever". You will have to provide a quote to support your rebellious statement. The word "eternal" is the opposite of "nihilist". Both are wrong views in Buddhism.

Quote
You have heard nothing within your extensive studies in Buddhism and Buddhist scriptures of this and the denial that Nirvana refers to Non-Existence?

I have already expertly addressed this distinction previously on this thread. The distinction between emptiness (sunnata), no-more-becoming (natthi dāni punabbhavo) & non-existence (vibhava) is unrelated to your errors & rebelliousness here.

Quote
Furthermore, you very likely do not believe in experiential reincarnation

Please stop lying. There is no such thing as "experiential reincarnation". All the mind can experience are mental formations.

Quote
,and furthermore probably do not believe in attaining Nirvana through any practices really except via simply dying as one or anyone dies

Please stop slandering.

Quote
I can't quote suttas

You appear to be not a Buddhist but some kind of Christian evangelist.

 ;D


Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 05:41:11 pm
[url]http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4216/how-is-nirvana-different-than-annihilation[/url] ([url]http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4216/how-is-nirvana-different-than-annihilation[/url])

" The Buddhist scriptures clearly & unambiguously have defined Nirvana as the here & now cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.


it is best to not copy & paste other people's posts from other forums, particularly quotes such as the one above, which I posted. It makes you look very silly to use my personal post from New Buddhist forum to argue against me.

 :teehee: :lmfao:

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 05:49:55 pm
Nirvana was conceived as the attainment of immortality, and the gaining of a deathless sphere from which there would be no falling back.

Nirvana is not 'immorality' because it is unborn. However, Nirvana is the deathless because the unborn is also the undying.

Quote
Nirvana can be reached because it already dwells as the inmost "consciousness" of the human being. It is a consciousness which is not subject to birth and death.

Nirvana is unrelated to consciousness. This quote is wrong.

It looks so silly when you copy quotes from myself & others that contradict each other in a vain attempt to support your floundering.

 :teehee: :lmfao:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 05:57:51 pm
Conze mentions ideas like the "person" (pudgala), the assumption of an eternal "consciousness" in the saddhatusutra, the identification of the Absolute, as descriptors of Nirvana to mean an "invisible infinite consciousness, which shines everywhere" in Dighanikaya XI 85, and "traces of a belief in consciousness as the nonimpermanent centre of the personality which constitutes an absolute element in this contingent world."[143]

Nirvana as a location
Schayer's methodology has been used by M. Falk.[145][note 19] Falk details the precanonical Buddhist conceptions of the cosmos, nirvana, the Buddha, the path, and the saint. According to Falk, in the precanonical tradition, there is a threefold division of reality:[145]

The rupadhatu, the samsaric sphere of name and form (namarupa), in which ordinary beings live, die, and are reborn.
The arupadhatu, the sphere of "sheer nama," produced by samadhi, an ethereal realm frequented by yogins who are not completely liberated;
"Above" or "outside" these two realms is the realm of nirvana, the "amrta sphere," characterized by prajna. This nirvana is an "abode" or "place" which is gained by the enlightened holy man.[note 20]
According to Falk, this scheme is reflected in the precanonical conception of the path to liberation.[147] The nirvanic element, as an "essence" or pure consciousness, is immanent within samsara. The three bodies are concentric realities, which are stripped away or abandoned, leaving only the nirodhakaya of the liberated person.[147] Wynne notes that this pure consciousness was the central element in precanonical Buddhism:

Schayer referred to passages in which "consciousness" (vinnana) seems to be the ultimate reality or substratum (e.g. A I.10) 14 as well as the Saddhatu Sutra, which is not found in any canonical source but is cited in other Buddhist texts — it states that the personality (pudgala) consists of the six elements (dhatu) of earth, water, fire, wind, space and consciousness; Schayer noted that it related to other ancient Indian ideas. Keith’s argument is also based on the Saddhatu Sutra as well as "passages where we have explanations of Nirvana which echo the ideas of the Upanishads regarding the ultimate reality." He also refers to the doctrine of "a consciousness, originally pure, defiled by adventitious impurities."[148]

According to Lindtner, in precanonical Buddhism Nirvana is a physical place and the outer most realm of cosmos.[149] This is a place, states Lindtner, referred to as nirvanadhatu, without border-signs (animitta), it cannot be visualized (anidarsana), it is past the other six dhatus (beginning with earth and ending with vijñana) but is closest to akasa and vijñana. Once there in this is place of nirvana, one does not slip back, it is acyutapada. As opposed to this world, adds Lindtner, nirvana in early Buddhism is a pleasant place to be in, "it is sukha, things work well".[150][note 21]

Elements of this precanonical Buddhism may have survived the canonisation, and its subsequent filtering out of ideas, and re-appeared in Mahayana Buddhism.[138][140] According to Lindtner, the existence of multiple, and contradicting ideas, is also reflected in the works of 2nd-century Nagarjuna, who tried to harmonize these different and conflicting ideas in Buddhist literature that preceded him. According to Lindtner, this lead him to take a "paradoxical" stance, on nirvana, where he rejects any positive description and rejects any absolute, while paradoxically accepting all sides within the Buddhist traditions.[151]"

Sounds lofty to the undiscerning unenlightened mind but, what I read of the above, is non-sense.  :teehee:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 06:07:17 pm
https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/ (https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/)

"Only after studying the Pali Canon did I discover that nirvana is a different event to death; it is life without death, and it is nourishing to all living things. Even though the body may yield to death, the mind in a state of nirvana does not die.

Other religions in India that were contemporary to Buddhism also used the word ‘nirvana’. Leaders of these religions used to send their men to ask the Buddha about his version of nirvana. Their meaning might have been ‘death’ (these were the peoples of south India). We may conclude, therefore, that nirvana was the most important subject of these people. One such group might have interpreted the word as ‘death’ and taught that as the meaning in Southeast Asia before Buddhism spread throughout the area. It was probably the same in the case of the word ‘atman’ (self).

The Buddha went in search of nirvana—in the sense of total extinction of suffering, rather than in the sense of it meaning death—with the help of leaders of various religious sects existing in India during that period. The highest realm he found was ‘the realm of neither-perception-nor-nonperception’, that is ‘the calmness of the mind wherein there is neither death nor nondeath’. This he did not accept as being the ultimate, and continued in his search. Finally, he reached nirvana, the cool state of mind resulting from the extinction of defilements, and he termed it ‘the cessation of suffering’. The more one’s defilements decrease, the more the coolness increases. This continues until the greatest degree of coolness is reached after all of one’s impurities have been extinguished. Nirvana is the coolness resulting from the extinction of defilements whether they become extinct of themselves or by one’s effort.

Defilements are compounded things­—they have birth and they have death. According to the Pali Canon, this fact is an indication that something is a defilement. When causal conditions are not present, defilements simply become extinct. Even though the extinction may be temporary, even though there is only temporary coolness, the phenomenon has the real sense of nirvana. Hence, temporary nirvana does exist for those who have some impurities left; temporary nirvana nourishes all sentient beings. If defilements were with us day and night without ceasing, who would ever stand them? Living things would either die, or become insane first and then die. One survives because there are periods when the fires of defilements do not burn. Periodical nirvana keeps all of us alive and well, and is a nourishing condition, normal to life.

Why don’t we know or feel thankful for this kind of nirvana? Fortunately, it is our instinct to acquire it. Whatever has any heart and mind will look for periods when defilements, or strong desires, are absent. If a living thing maintains unceasing desire, it will have to die. Therefore, an infant knows how to suck milk and a ­mosquito knows how to suck blood, in order to keep itself alive. Our instincts inherently have such a quality; that is to say, we instinctively go in search of spans of time when the mind is free from defilement or desire. Whenever it happens, a little nirvana always comes in. And the phenomenon will continue until one learns how to convert it into permanent or complete nirvana. This will not be death, but nondeath, especially of one’s mind. Those who see this truth will realise by themselves that we all survive because of this kind of nirvana, and not solely because of food with which we are infatuated.

The coolness and calmness which everyone wants is the meaning of nirvana, but most people misunderstand it and go towards fiery sensual pleasures instead. What they then receive is false nirvana. Such practices have been in existence since the time of the Buddha or even before that period as seen in the sixty-two views of the Brahma­jala sutta.

The supreme state of nirvana is attained when all the fires of defilement are extinguished. The highest attainment in Buddhism, as stated by the Buddha, involves the extinction of lust, anger, and delusion. That is the ultimate extinction of all the fires, and the subsequent coolness is as supreme as life can attain.

Nirvana is not the mind, but the state which the mind can achieve. The Buddha referred to it as a sphere to be reached by mindfulness and wisdom. Visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, and tangible objects are of the material sphere, the physical sphere. The sphere of unbounded space and other spheres up to the sphere of neither-perception­-nor-nonperception are mental spheres that the mind can reach. However, nirvana is a sphere of wisdom which mindful, wise people may perceive or attain. Nirvana, therefore, may be considered to be something that nature holds for human beings of a higher spiritual level. We should consider this fact in order that both nirvana and all of us do not exist in vain. Every one of us has the mindfulness and the wisdom to sense nirvana. Please don’t let it all go to waste.

The sphere of nirvana is something that naturally exists for people to attain. It is like precious medicine which can extinguish all kinds of suffering. No ordinary medicine can ever relieve the real suffering or disease which exists, disease caused by defilements which can only be cured by the extinction of those defilements. This sickness is the utmost ailment of the soul, hidden secretly in us and secretly tormenting us. Whoever extinguishes it will be the one who reaches the pinnacle of being human.

Synonyms of nirvana are numerous: ‘deathless­ness’, ‘permanence’, ‘peace’, ‘the state of being without fear or danger’, ‘health’, ‘the state of being without disease’, ‘freedom’, ‘emancipation’, ‘the shelter’, ‘the refuge’, ‘the stronghold’, the float for people who have fallen into the water’, ‘the highest gain’, ‘the highest bliss’, ‘the further shore’, ‘the place one will reach in the future when the physical and mental constitution of the body comes to an end’, and so on. The expression which best conveys the meaning of nirvana is ‘the cessation of suffering’, but it is not interesting enough for those who do not feel that they are suffering. For them, there is no suffering to extinguish. Once they are told that nirvana is a new life, a life in which there is a quenching of thirst, or a life which is beyond the positive or negative, then they become extremely interested. For each individual we must have a particular translation of the word ‘nirvana’, which is not at all easy. Deep down, everybody wants nirvana, but they are not conscious of that fact."

More funny.  :teehee: This quote is by the old Thai monk Buddhadasa, recipient of many honorary doctorates, Thai representative to the last Buddhist council & the most renowned debunker of metaphysical ideas about rebirth & reincarnation. Buddhadasa is the #1 enemy of the Buddhist rebirthers. Yet you quote him.  :lmfao:

Note: the word "eternal" is not used above because Nirvana is permanent happiness for the lifetime of an arahant; that is all.

 :om:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:09:29 pm
So you don't know about this notion of Nirvana being experiential and lasting? Eternity means lasting forever, not ending or changing.

I have never read Nirvana described as "eternal" or as "lasting forever". You will have to provide a quote to support your rebellious statement. The word "eternal" is the opposite of "nihilist". Both are wrong views in Buddhism.

Quote
You have heard nothing within your extensive studies in Buddhism and Buddhist scriptures of this and the denial that Nirvana refers to Non-Existence?

I have already expertly addressed this distinction previously on this thread. The distinction between emptiness (sunnata), no-more-becoming (natthi dāni punabbhavo) & non-existence (vibhava) is unrelated to your errors & rebelliousness here.

Quote
Furthermore, you very likely do not believe in experiential reincarnation

Please stop lying. There is no such thing as "experiential reincarnation". All the mind can experience are mental formations.

Quote
,and furthermore probably do not believe in attaining Nirvana through any practices really except via simply dying as one or anyone dies

Please stop slandering.

Quote
I can't quote suttas

You appear to be not a Buddhist but some kind of Christian evangelist.

 ;D

Those aren't lies or slander. You just admitted you don't believe in reincarnation as a real experience and that you don't believe in any sort of eternal or lasting Nirvana state, just plain old basic old fashioned Atheistic death. Right? If not, clarify. Why aren't you doing the Permanent Cessation thing right now? Instead you are concerned about making false accusations of slander? I have difficulty copy pasting on the phone I use to post, but Suttas are available which have been the basis for many standard Buddhist beliefs throughout the centuries regarding notions I mentioned. You don't answer the questions though? If there is no return upon death and death is the cessation of suffering, why not? Your ideas are the ones which are rather new to Buddhism, and why should you care? You don't even call yourself a Buddhist.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: EaglesWing on July 26, 2017, 06:13:22 pm
It looks so silly when you copy quotes from myself & others that contradict each other in a vain attempt to support your floundering.

VisuddhiRaptor. Stop being so mean to my friend The Artis Magistra; you nasty person.  :argue:

 :bigtears:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:19:18 pm
Nirvana was conceived as the attainment of immortality, and the gaining of a deathless sphere from which there would be no falling back.

Nirvana is not 'immorality' because it is unborn. However, Nirvana is the deathless because the unborn is also the undying.

Quote
Nirvana can be reached because it already dwells as the inmost "consciousness" of the human being. It is a consciousness which is not subject to birth and death.

Nirvana is unrelated to consciousness. This quote is wrong.

It looks so silly when you copy quotes from myself & others that contradict each other in a vain attempt to support your floundering.

 :teehee: :lmfao:

I was just quoting from a variety of places to show some alternative ideas that are floating around these days. The Unborn, did not come into being from not being, it is unconditioned, anyone would understand the usage of the word Eternal in that context, but maybe your language is Pali instead of English.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 06:20:09 pm
Those aren't lies or slander. You just admitted you don't believe in reincarnation...

They are slander because they are unrelated to Right View in Buddhism, which does not include reincarnation.

Quote
Why aren't you doing the Permanent Cessation thing right now?

Permanent cessation is defined in the permanent cessation of craving, self-identity & suffering rather than life.  :listen:

Quote
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release & letting go of that very craving. MN 56.11

The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One. MN 44
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:23:08 pm
https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/ (https://buddhismnow.com/2009/10/28/nirvana-for-everyone/)

"Only after studying the Pali Canon did I discover that nirvana is a different event to death; it is life without death, and it is nourishing to all living things. Even though the body may yield to death, the mind in a state of nirvana does not die.

Other religions in India that were contemporary to Buddhism also used the word ‘nirvana’. Leaders of these religions used to send their men to ask the Buddha about his version of nirvana. Their meaning might have been ‘death’ (these were the peoples of south India). We may conclude, therefore, that nirvana was the most important subject of these people. One such group might have interpreted the word as ‘death’ and taught that as the meaning in Southeast Asia before Buddhism spread throughout the area. It was probably the same in the case of the word ‘atman’ (self).

The Buddha went in search of nirvana—in the sense of total extinction of suffering, rather than in the sense of it meaning death—with the help of leaders of various religious sects existing in India during that period. The highest realm he found was ‘the realm of neither-perception-nor-nonperception’, that is ‘the calmness of the mind wherein there is neither death nor nondeath’. This he did not accept as being the ultimate, and continued in his search. Finally, he reached nirvana, the cool state of mind resulting from the extinction of defilements, and he termed it ‘the cessation of suffering’. The more one’s defilements decrease, the more the coolness increases. This continues until the greatest degree of coolness is reached after all of one’s impurities have been extinguished. Nirvana is the coolness resulting from the extinction of defilements whether they become extinct of themselves or by one’s effort.

Defilements are compounded things­—they have birth and they have death. According to the Pali Canon, this fact is an indication that something is a defilement. When causal conditions are not present, defilements simply become extinct. Even though the extinction may be temporary, even though there is only temporary coolness, the phenomenon has the real sense of nirvana. Hence, temporary nirvana does exist for those who have some impurities left; temporary nirvana nourishes all sentient beings. If defilements were with us day and night without ceasing, who would ever stand them? Living things would either die, or become insane first and then die. One survives because there are periods when the fires of defilements do not burn. Periodical nirvana keeps all of us alive and well, and is a nourishing condition, normal to life.

Why don’t we know or feel thankful for this kind of nirvana? Fortunately, it is our instinct to acquire it. Whatever has any heart and mind will look for periods when defilements, or strong desires, are absent. If a living thing maintains unceasing desire, it will have to die. Therefore, an infant knows how to suck milk and a ­mosquito knows how to suck blood, in order to keep itself alive. Our instincts inherently have such a quality; that is to say, we instinctively go in search of spans of time when the mind is free from defilement or desire. Whenever it happens, a little nirvana always comes in. And the phenomenon will continue until one learns how to convert it into permanent or complete nirvana. This will not be death, but nondeath, especially of one’s mind. Those who see this truth will realise by themselves that we all survive because of this kind of nirvana, and not solely because of food with which we are infatuated.

The coolness and calmness which everyone wants is the meaning of nirvana, but most people misunderstand it and go towards fiery sensual pleasures instead. What they then receive is false nirvana. Such practices have been in existence since the time of the Buddha or even before that period as seen in the sixty-two views of the Brahma­jala sutta.

The supreme state of nirvana is attained when all the fires of defilement are extinguished. The highest attainment in Buddhism, as stated by the Buddha, involves the extinction of lust, anger, and delusion. That is the ultimate extinction of all the fires, and the subsequent coolness is as supreme as life can attain.

Nirvana is not the mind, but the state which the mind can achieve. The Buddha referred to it as a sphere to be reached by mindfulness and wisdom. Visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, and tangible objects are of the material sphere, the physical sphere. The sphere of unbounded space and other spheres up to the sphere of neither-perception­-nor-nonperception are mental spheres that the mind can reach. However, nirvana is a sphere of wisdom which mindful, wise people may perceive or attain. Nirvana, therefore, may be considered to be something that nature holds for human beings of a higher spiritual level. We should consider this fact in order that both nirvana and all of us do not exist in vain. Every one of us has the mindfulness and the wisdom to sense nirvana. Please don’t let it all go to waste.

The sphere of nirvana is something that naturally exists for people to attain. It is like precious medicine which can extinguish all kinds of suffering. No ordinary medicine can ever relieve the real suffering or disease which exists, disease caused by defilements which can only be cured by the extinction of those defilements. This sickness is the utmost ailment of the soul, hidden secretly in us and secretly tormenting us. Whoever extinguishes it will be the one who reaches the pinnacle of being human.

Synonyms of nirvana are numerous: ‘deathless­ness’, ‘permanence’, ‘peace’, ‘the state of being without fear or danger’, ‘health’, ‘the state of being without disease’, ‘freedom’, ‘emancipation’, ‘the shelter’, ‘the refuge’, ‘the stronghold’, the float for people who have fallen into the water’, ‘the highest gain’, ‘the highest bliss’, ‘the further shore’, ‘the place one will reach in the future when the physical and mental constitution of the body comes to an end’, and so on. The expression which best conveys the meaning of nirvana is ‘the cessation of suffering’, but it is not interesting enough for those who do not feel that they are suffering. For them, there is no suffering to extinguish. Once they are told that nirvana is a new life, a life in which there is a quenching of thirst, or a life which is beyond the positive or negative, then they become extremely interested. For each individual we must have a particular translation of the word ‘nirvana’, which is not at all easy. Deep down, everybody wants nirvana, but they are not conscious of that fact."

More funny.  :teehee: This quote is by the old Thai monk Buddhadasa, recipient of many honorary doctorates, Thai representative to the last Buddhist council & the most renowned debunker of metaphysical ideas about rebirth & reincarnation. Buddhadasa is the #1 enemy of the Buddhist rebirthers. Yet you quote him.  :lmfao:

Note: the word "eternal" is not used above because Nirvana is permanent happiness for the lifetime of an arahant; that is all.

 :om:

I provided a variety of quotes, I am not a "re-birther" or whatever, but I am trying to say a wide variety of ideas have existed among Buddhists, people who call themselves Buddhists, unlike you who does not call yourself Buddhist. I am not quoting things to prove that it is indeed the csse we do not simply die forever as you seem to wish but for some reason delay.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:25:58 pm
Those aren't lies or slander. You just admitted you don't believe in reincarnation...

They are slander because they are unrelated to Right View in Buddhism, which does not include reincarnation.

Quote
Why aren't you doing the Permanent Cessation thing right now?

Permanent cessation is defined in the permanent cessation of craving, self-identity & suffering rather than life.  :listen:

Quote
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release & letting go of that very craving. MN 56.11

The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One. MN 44

So why not just be clear? You believe that what you believe is what the Buddha was said to have said, and you believe the end of suffering is basically to die. Yes? Just say it like a human being please.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 06:26:30 pm
I was just quoting from a variety of places to show some alternative ideas that are floating around these days. The Unborn, did not come into being from not being, it is unconditioned, anyone would understand the usage of the word Eternal in that context, but maybe your language is Pali instead of English.

This is naughty. You were quoting from a variety of places like you were playing a lottery because of not knowing what Nirvana really is. The word 'eternal' is found in Pali and is an evil word used by evil doers particularly when used with a capital 'E'.   :curtain:

Quote
That has not been declared by me, Vaccha: 'The cosmos is eternal.'"

"Well then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos not eternal?"

"Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The cosmos is not eternal.'"

Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 06:28:21 pm
So why not just be clear? You believe that what you believe is what the Buddha was said to have said, and you believe the end of suffering is basically to die. Yes? Just say it like a human being please.

Please stop slandering. The end of suffering is the end of craving & self-identifying, as quoted.  :om:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:32:19 pm
I was just quoting from a variety of places to show some alternative ideas that are floating around these days. The Unborn, did not come into being from not being, it is unconditioned, anyone would understand the usage of the word Eternal in that context, but maybe your language is Pali instead of English.

This is naughty. You were quoting from a variety of places like you were playing a lottery because of not knowing what Nirvana really is. The word 'eternal' is found in Pali and is an evil word used by evil doers particularly when used with a capital 'E'.   :curtain:

Quote
That has not been declared by me, Vaccha: 'The cosmos is eternal.'"

"Well then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos not eternal?"

"Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The cosmos is not eternal.'"

Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism

Evil? Evil-doers? What does Evil or doing Evil matter at all since the great solution to all troubles is simply to die and cause death? When one dies they simply cease to be forever, the ultimate goal of Buddhism right? So the evil doer has nothing to be concerned about, its quite relaxing. Rape, pillage, murder, you escape via death, and there is no one to be caught or held accountable so long as you get away with it in life. Right? If not right, then in plain English explain your ideas on this. In normal Buddhism which you don't believe in, one was not believed or expected to simply escape their crimes via death.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: EaglesWing on July 26, 2017, 06:32:47 pm
Please stop slandering. The end of suffering is the end of craving & self-identifying, as quoted.  :om:

Just because you might be right doesn't mean you can be mean to The Artist Fabristra. Please be nice.  :elf:

 :anjali:

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:33:48 pm
So why not just be clear? You believe that what you believe is what the Buddha was said to have said, and you believe the end of suffering is basically to die. Yes? Just say it like a human being please.

Please stop slandering. The end of suffering is the end of craving & self-identifying, as quoted.  :om:

Nobody is "slandering" as far as that word is generally defined. We are just discussing and you are being asked to be clear.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: EaglesWing on July 26, 2017, 06:38:42 pm
When one dies they simply cease to be forever, the ultimate goal of Buddhism right? So the evil doer has nothing to be concerned about, its quite relaxing. Rape, pillage, murder, you escape via death, and there is no one to be caught or held accountable so long as you get away with it in life. Right? If not right, then in plain English explain your ideas on this. In normal Buddhism which you don't believe in, one was not believed or expected to simply escape their crimes via death.

Dear The Artist Magistra Fabristra Fabricator.

The Buddha did not teach to save the world from evil. The Buddha taught to free the mind from suffering. People who rape pillage & murder either go to prison, are executed or become kings & queens. The world & your concerns about evil doers is making your mind suffer & blocking liberation. You sound so childish here but I still respect you. You sound like Moses instead of Buddha. 

:teehee: :pray:

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:49:44 pm
I have asked you some clear cut things, there is no need to hide behind things, just be open.

1. Atheistic Materialist Buddhists deny Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Nirvana or PariNirvana as anything other than generally synonymous with Non-Existence and Total Death which they must suppose is the end of everything since they deny afterlife and experiential rebirth or reincarnation.

2. If there is suffering and the end of suffering is death, there is no reason not to kill yourself in order to attain "Non-Existence" which is the topic of this thread.

3. There is nothing that Evildoers should fear regarding the Evil they do except the material concerns of getting away with it. There is no justice, judgment, repercussions, ordering system, ordering entities, watching, etc.

These views are plain to see in any Atheistic Materialistic Western Science Style Buddhist who denies Spiritual Entities, Denies Supernatural Powers or Realities, Denies Everything but Materialistic Western Science, Denies Rebirth or Reincarnation (you called such "re-birthers"), denies Justice or Retirn, and denies Nirvana is a perpetual existence or awareness, instead likening it to Absolute Permanent Death, and since the Afterlife or Re-Birth is denied m, Anyone At All Dying thus Achieves Non-Existence Forever and the end to their Suffering.

So stop calling it slander please while slandering me, and just explain how that is or is not the case, because that is very clearly the case, or seems to be, and the pok poks seem to hife behind weirdo explanations and sayings instead of boldly proclaiming that this is what is essentially being said.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:54:53 pm
When one dies they simply cease to be forever, the ultimate goal of Buddhism right? So the evil doer has nothing to be concerned about, its quite relaxing. Rape, pillage, murder, you escape via death, and there is no one to be caught or held accountable so long as you get away with it in life. Right? If not right, then in plain English explain your ideas on this. In normal Buddhism which you don't believe in, one was not believed or expected to simply escape their crimes via death.

Dear The Artist Magistra Fabristra Fabricator.

The Buddha did not teach to save the world from evil. The Buddha taught to free the mind from suffering. People who rape pillage & murder either go to prison, are executed or become kings & queens. The world & your concerns about evil doers is making your mind suffer & blocking liberation. You sound so childish here but I still respect you. You sound like Moses instead of Buddha. 

:teehee: :pray:

https://vimeo.com/37413115

Why should one cease suffering and what is the difference between "evil" and "suffering"? I mentioned "evil" in this context in relation to VisuddhiRaptor talking about evil and evil-doers after calling me Naughty, and this was curious because the notion of evil or evil-doers becomes entirely irrelevant if there is no real evil or possibility to do evil or consequences and everyone can easily achieve the Non-Existence they are craving via death, according to these New ideas infiltrating Buddhism. Traditional Buddhists did not believe this though, otherwise the Buddha would have said, there is suffering, kill yourselves to relieve it.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: meez on July 26, 2017, 07:05:58 pm
EaglesWing:  Stop posting videos in every other reply you make.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 07:07:29 pm
I have asked you some clear cut things, there is no need to hide behind things, just be open.

You do not understand Buddhism & thus are a heretic.

Quote
1. Atheistic Materialist Buddhists deny Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Nirvana or PariNirvana as anything other than generally synonymous with Non-Existence and Total Death which they must suppose is the end of everything since they deny afterlife and experiential rebirth or reincarnation.

The language above is not Buddhist therefore it is heresy.

The Buddha never used the terms 'materialist' or 'atheist'.

Nirvana is the here & now end of suffering from the destruction of craving.

Nihilism is the belief a 'self' will end at 'death'.

Nihilism is not the belief the aggregates are impermanent & terminate when life ends.

Moral nihilism is the view there are no results of good & bad karma.

Eternalism is the belief a 'self' continues after 'death'.

'Death' does not refer to the termination of life but the idea a 'self' dies'. It is a self-view.

Quote
2. If there is suffering and the end of suffering is death, there is no reason not to kill yourself in order to attain "Non-Existence" which is the topic of this thread.

The end of suffering is not death. PLEASE STOP SLANDERING OTHERS & PLEASE STOP LYING.

Quote
3. There is nothing that Evildoers should fear regarding the Evil they do except the material concerns of getting away with it. There is no justice, judgment, repercussions, ordering system, ordering entities, watching, etc.

This is unrelated to the essence of Buddhism but ideas of moralists.

Today, the civilised world is close to finished. It is close to endtimes. Soon, the oligarchs may impose a dictatorship as they did in 1917 in Russia. The world is making you suffer. This is unBuddhist, heresy & blasphemy.

Quote
These views are plain to see in any Atheistic Materialistic Western Science Style Buddhist

This is silly. Today, Buddhists are murdering Rohingya & other minorities in Burma; Sri Lankan monks are promoting militarism; Christians, Jews & Jewish-Buddhists want to nuclear destroy Iran; Muslims are beheading other Muslims in Arabia, Syria & Iraq. All of these religious people believe in life after death. They are murdering people based on their ideas of life after death. Your views are spiritually immature & unrelated to the Buddha's noble quest.

:bigtears:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 07:20:15 pm
So here are some ideas, and a person can decide which group they best fit in:

1. There is no Reincarnation, no Rebirth, No Justice of Karmic Rebirths, No Heavens, No Hells, No Devas or Asuras or Demons or Supernatural Beings or Deities or Bodhisattvas or Ghosts or Anything like that, When a Person Dies they cease to exist forever and never come back or experience anything again. The end of suffering is non-existence from death.

2. The state of Nirvana or PariNirvana is not simply non-existence but perpetual relief from suffering which is not Non-Existence or Death. When one dies they are reborn in some way, non-experience can not be experienced and so one only experiences again.

3. There is Supernatural Justice and Management, there is good and evil and those who die as evil doers will be punished by bad results and those who die as doers of good will be rewarded for their merits, nothing goes unaccounted for, there are all sorts of things which may exist. One does not escape their deeds via death.

Those are the three main areas on the spectrum, the latter is full blown common Historical Buddhism or Buddhist spread and based superstition. The middle accepts some modicum of that, and the first strictly denies the ideas Buddhists are generally credited for.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 07:28:20 pm
I have asked you some clear cut things, there is no need to hide behind things, just be open.

You do not understand Buddhism & thus are a heretic.

Quote
1. Atheistic Materialist Buddhists deny Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Nirvana or PariNirvana as anything other than generally synonymous with Non-Existence and Total Death which they must suppose is the end of everything since they deny afterlife and experiential rebirth or reincarnation.

The language above is not Buddhist therefore it is heresy.

The Buddha never used the terms 'materialist' or 'atheist'.

Nirvana is the here & now end of suffering from the destruction of craving.

Nihilism is the belief a 'self' will end at 'death'.

Nihilism is not the belief the aggregates are impermanent & terminate when life ends.

Moral nihilism is the view there are no results of good & bad karma.

Eternalism is the belief a 'self' continues after 'death'.

'Death' does not refer to the termination of life but the idea a 'self' dies'. It is a self-view.

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2. If there is suffering and the end of suffering is death, there is no reason not to kill yourself in order to attain "Non-Existence" which is the topic of this thread.

The end of suffering is not death. PLEASE STOP SLANDERING OTHERS & PLEASE STOP LYING.

Quote
3. There is nothing that Evildoers should fear regarding the Evil they do except the material concerns of getting away with it. There is no justice, judgment, repercussions, ordering system, ordering entities, watching, etc.

This is unrelated to the essence of Buddhism but ideas of moralists.

Today, the civilised world is close to finished. It is close to endtimes. Soon, the oligarchs may impose a dictatorship as they did in 1917 in Russia. The world is making you suffer. This is unBuddhist, heresy & blasphemy.

Quote
These views are plain to see in any Atheistic Materialistic Western Science Style Buddhist

This is silly. Today, Buddhists are murdering Rohingya & other minorities in Burma; Sri Lankan monks are promoting militarism; Christians, Jews & Jewish-Buddhists want to nuclear destroy Iran; Muslims are beheading other Muslims in Arabia, Syria & Iraq. All of these religious people believe in life after death. They are murdering people based on their ideas of life after death. Your views are spiritually immature & unrelated to the Buddha's noble quest.

:bigtears:

Noble quest? To tell people that Death is the end of existence and suffering? Why are you calling me a Heretic when you are the one who won't call yourself a Buddhist yet keeps trying tomake Buddhism into Atheistic Western Materialistic Science? They are all killing, what does it matter to you that they are killing? Those people being killed simply cease to exist and thus attain an identical status to the Buddha, Dead and Not Suffering, Never to Return. Why would you hide and deny your own ideas and their implications?

The Buddha did not use any of these words because the Buddha did not speak English. Hopefully you can understand English though. When a person says "when you die you no longer experience anything forever" they are saying you do not exist when you die. This is very simple. So if Death ceases all suffering for oneself, then the solution was simply Death. Why are you now denying this?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 07:49:32 pm
Noble quest? To tell people that Death is the end of existence and suffering? Why are you calling me a Heretic when you are the one...

This is rude & disrespectful to others because you have been informed many times that I & others do not believe death is the end of suffering.

The word "existence" ("bhava") in Buddhism means the sense of idea that "I" exist. This is egoism. This is a thought.

Nirvana is the end of "ego-existence" rather than the end of life.

In Buddhism, the 1st clear realisation of this is called Stream-Entry. Stream-enterers are part of the Noble Sangha. They are to be honored. But you dishonor those who believe in the non-existence of "self".

Your posts are 100% morality. They are 1/3 of the Eightfold Path rather than 100% of the Eightfold Path.

Your posts mundane dhamma rather than supramundane dhamma. Mundane dhamma is peripheral to the Buddha's teachings.

The Buddha's quest was to end suffering in individuals rather than create a perfect world.

Quote
The Buddha did not use any of these words because the Buddha did not speak English.

The Buddha certainly used words that are translated as "material" and "god" however he never labelled anyone a "materialist" or "atheist".

Regards  :namaste:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 07:54:13 pm
But if you are claiming that when one dies they cease to exist forever and never return or experience again, then why are you denying that death differs from the implication that PariNirvana is being non-existent forever? You call me heretic, evildoer, bad m, etc, why not face what you yourself are implying or saying using plain old English?

You denied that one exists or is reborn after they die. You agree one who is dead does not and can't suffer because they don't exist and never return. So what is the problem here? Just speak in English.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 07:57:11 pm
3. There is Supernatural Justice and Management, there is good and evil and those who die as evil doers will be punished by bad results and those who die as doers of good will be rewarded for their merits, nothing goes unaccounted for, there are all sorts of things which may exist. One does not escape their deeds via death.

This is superstition. Even if it was true, the majority of the world will not really believe it. This is why the majority of the world, especially the religions people, commit evil. 

Religion teaches these things so the priests & monks can make money & gain power over people. These teachings are ancient history because the world is now 80% immoral. It simply doesn't work.

In short, I may be tough in debate but in life I am super moral yet I do not believe in reincarnation. My super morality totally refutes your false views that non-rebirthers are immoral.

Your ideas are 100% wrong because I heard there are more religious people in prison than non-religious people.

:nopity:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 08:17:05 pm
But if you are claiming that when one dies they cease to exist forever and never return or experience again, then why are you denying that death differs from the implication that PariNirvana is being non-existent forever? You call me heretic, evildoer, bad m, etc, why not face what you yourself are implying or saying using plain old English?

You denied that one exists or is reborn after they die. You agree one who is dead does not and can't suffer because they don't exist and never return. So what is the problem here? Just speak in English.

The Buddha did not speak English but you are speaking English. Worse, you are a MATERIALIST  :teehee: because you interpret words materialistically rather than mentally. For example, "existence" ("bhava") in Buddhism does not necessarily refer to material existence as you materialistically believe but can refer to the feeling of existing as a 'self' or a 'me'.

To repeat for the last time:

* "Death" is the idea a "self" dies. A Buddha has no self therefore "death" does not occur to a Buddha. This is written in many suttas.

* I did not deny a self is not reborn after they die because generally the self idea is always being reborn in the mind of an unenlightened person. For example, the self a person believes they were at 4 years old died when they were 5 years old and a new self was born at 6 years old. The self-image is always dying & being reborn, such as when a person believes they are Christian but then later changes to believe they are a Buddhist. The Christian dies & the Buddhist is reborn.

* If a mind without self has never been experienced, that mind is not enlightened in Buddhism. If so, that mind does not really understand Buddhism in its entirety. Instead, unenlightened Buddhists are materialists because they believe rebirth is material (into a new physical body) rather than mental (rebirth of self-view).

* It is those who try to demonize others as 'materialists' who are really the materialists. The Artis Magistra is a materialist par excellence because The Artist Magistra believes 'birth', 'existence', 'death' & 'rebirth' are material or physical.

* The Artis Magistra - pot calling the kettle black.

 :teehee:  :namaste:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 08:39:29 pm
I never said what I believe, I am asking what you believe though.

The word death typically means to people the cessation of all functioning or experiencing of anything, non-existence. Atheistic and Materialistic people (I mean the philosophy of Materialism) typically take death to mean permanent non-existence, never to experience again. You said Buddhism was likely Materialistic Science and does not support the idea of life beyond death or return after death. If you do not believe this though, then clarify these particular points please.

I offered 3 views earlier, I did not state which one I gravitate towards for certain.

This is not about accusations but about honesty. What do you really think or believe happens when anyone or anything truly dies? Do you think they experience again or not? It is a very simple question. If you believe they do not experience again then Evil is of no major concern, one can simply escape harm via death. If one does return in some way, then Evil may be of concern, as one would be unable to escape via death. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 08:59:06 pm
...you are a MATERIALIST  :teehee: because you interpret words materialistically rather than mentally. ..
Whether one perceives consciousness arising dependent on the material body or one perceives the material body arising dependent on consciousness, both views are equally valid. What seems to be a contradiction between these two views vanishes when perception ceases.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 08:59:27 pm
The word death typically means to people the cessation of all functioning or experiencing of anything, non-existence.

No. Only materialists believe this.

In Pali, there are many words for the ending of life, such as "end of time". The word "death" ("marana") refers to the death of "a being" ("satta"). A "satta" is defined as a view or mental state of attachment (refer to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2).

Similarly, the word "death" in the New Testament & can occur in the Old Testament most often refers to spiritual death rather than physical death.

Similarly, in Sufism & Taoism, are the phrase "die before dying" and "the sage has no place for death to enter". These are spiritual death rather than material death.

Was Buddha referring to material death below:

Quote
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already . Dhammapada

 :listen:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:03:06 pm
Whether one perceives consciousness arising dependent on the material body or one perceives the material body arising dependent on consciousness, both views is equally valid. What seems to be a contradiction between these two views vanishes when perception ceases.

End of perception (nirodha samapatti) is not Buddhist enlightenment but an immaterial state of unconsciousness.

What you are calling the end of perception is not really the end of perception otherwise it could not be known or perceived.

Material existence of consciousness is dependent on the material body where as the mental existence (awareness) of the physical body is dependent upon consciousness.

You sound confused, here, thrice.  :teehee:

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 09:06:58 pm
Whether one perceives consciousness arising dependent on the material body or one perceives the material body arising dependent on consciousness, both views is equally valid. What seems to be a contradiction between these two views vanishes when perception ceases.


End of perception (nirodha samapatti) is not Buddhist enlightenment but an immaterial state of unconsciousness.

Material existence of consciousness is dependent on the material body where as the mental existence (awareness) of the physical body is dependent upon consciousness.

You sound confused, here, twice.  :teehee:


Cessation of perception is pristine cognition which is the radiant lucidity of pure knowing of the ground of being which is spontaneously present.

Quote
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:10:08 pm
Cessation of perception is pristine cognition which is the radiant lucidity of pure knowing of the ground of being which is spontaneously present.

No. 'Pristine cognition radiant lucidity of pure knowing' is something that is perceived.

If it was not perceived, it could not be known & described.

The only state of total non-perception is nirodha samapatti, which is essentially unconsciousness.  :namaste:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 09:11:53 pm
Cessation of perception is pristine cognition which is the radiant lucidity of pure knowing of the ground of being which is spontaneously present.


No. 'Pristine cognition radiant lucidity of pure knowing' is something that is perceived.

If it was not perceived, it could not be known & described.

The only state of total non-perception is nirodha samapatti, which is essentially unconsciousness.  :namaste:


Please be referred to
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/theravadan-reflections-on-the-natural-great-perfection-(dzogchen)/ (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/theravadan-reflections-on-the-natural-great-perfection-(dzogchen)/)
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:13:46 pm
]"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])


This quote only describes the aggregates unaffected & unpolluted by ignorance & suffering. It does not describe the end of perception. If it was about the end of perception, it could not be perceived. For example:

Quote
Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying at Uruvela... for seven days experiencing the bliss of liberation. Then, at the end of those seven days, the Lord emerged from that concentration and gave well-reasoned attention during the middle watch of the night to dependent arising in reverse order, thus:

This not being, that is not;
from the cessation of this, that ceases.

That is:

from the cessation of ignorance, volitional activities cease;
from the cessation of volitional activities, consciousness ceases;
from the cessation of consciousness, name-and-form ceases;
from the cessation of name-and-form, the sixfold base ceases;
from the cessation of the sixfold base, contact ceases;
from the cessation of contact, feeling ceases;
from the cessation of feeling, craving ceases;
from the cessation of craving, grasping ceases;
from the cessation of grasping, being ceases;
from the cessation of being, birth ceases;
from the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease.
This is the ceasing of this whole mass of suffering.

Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance:


When things become manifest
To the ardent meditating brahman,
All his doubts then vanish since he has known
The utter destruction of conditions.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.02.irel.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.02.irel.html[/url])

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:18:49 pm
Please be referred to
[url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/theravadan-reflections-on-the-natural-great-perfection-(dzogchen)/[/url] ([url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/theravada-buddhism/theravadan-reflections-on-the-natural-great-perfection-(dzogchen)/[/url])

if this supports your view, it is delusion, i.e., a delusion of insight.

I too have meditated (in the past) and believed perception to cease when gross/ordinary labelling of objects & phenomena cease.

However, perception (sanna) is still functioning.

If anything can be described it has been perceived because there cannot be a consciousness without perception.  :eek:

Quote
Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html[/url])


Quote
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 09:20:08 pm
Quote
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html[/url])




Quote
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. ...
From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 09:28:11 pm
...
I too have meditated (in the past) and believed perception to cease when gross/ordinary labelling of objects & phenomena cease.

However, perception (sanna) is still functioning. ...

Meditation is wrong in this context. Why? Because it entails clinging to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:28:50 pm

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. ...

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])

This is superstitious clinging to misinterpretation of words. All this means is when ignorance ceases, consciousness controlled & polluted by ignorance ceases.

For those that have not directly perceived dependent origination & cessation, these quotes, which show the mind remains conscious, may help:  :listen:

Quote
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html[/url])

On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established,[11] with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it, & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html[/url])

You seem to be suggesting when a Buddha ends ignorance, a Buddha is no longer conscious.  :teehee: :lmfao:

This quote may help:

Quote
Discernment (wisdom) & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them."

 I am now old, aged, burdened with years, advanced in life, and come to the last stage: my years have turned eighty.... Sariputta, even if you have to carry me about on a bed, still there will be no change in the lucidity of the Tathagata's wisdom.


Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:30:21 pm
Meditation is wrong in this context. Why? Because it entails clinging to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

Non-sense.  Perception is not clinging. Clinging is not perception. Have fun with Mahayana. :namaste:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 09:31:13 pm
You seem to be suggesting when a Buddha ends ignorance, a Buddha is no longer conscious.  :teehee: :lmfao:
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 09:33:05 pm
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.

Buddha-Dhamma is what is suitable.  :dharma:  Rather than teachings of those engaged in sexual misconduct with students.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 09:36:20 pm
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.


Buddha-Dhamma is what is suitable.   :dharma: Rather than teachings of those engaged in sexual misconduct with students.


your words are out of context of what I have said and quoted and referred to.

Quote
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html[/url])


Quote
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html[/url])


Now why do you think Bāhiya only needed hearing? It was because he was suitable.

In this vein [the state of] dzogchen which involves no perception can be accessed only through direct introduction of the suitable. Meditation is not only useless but a hindrance when a conscious being is suitable.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Pixie on July 26, 2017, 11:07:47 pm

Quote from: ground
It is obvious that you are not suitable for dzogchen. So let's leave it at that.


It is obvious that you are not a Dzogchen teacher - and not authorised to make such rash comments to others on the internet.

.

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 11:25:55 pm
The word death typically means to people the cessation of all functioning or experiencing of anything, non-existence.

No. Only materialists believe this.

In Pali, there are many words for the ending of life, such as "end of time". The word "death" ("marana") refers to the death of "a being" ("satta"). A "satta" is defined as a view or mental state of attachment (refer to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2).

Similarly, the word "death" in the New Testament & can occur in the Old Testament most often refers to spiritual death rather than physical death.

Similarly, in Sufism & Taoism, are the phrase "die before dying" and "the sage has no place for death to enter". These are spiritual death rather than material death.

Was Buddha referring to material death below:

Quote
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already . Dhammapada

 :listen:

So can you clearly state that one does not die or cease to stop experiencing information upon the death of the body?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 11:43:00 pm

It is obvious that you are not a Dzogchen teacher - and not authorised to make such rash comments to others on the internet.


Whatever Ground is attempting to teach is just superstition because it doesn't exist but only imagined.  :curtain:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 26, 2017, 11:49:51 pm
So can you clearly state that one does not die or cease to stop experiencing information upon the death of the body?

Still don't get it.

Higher Buddhism is about freeing the mind from the idea of "you", "one", "self", "I", "me" "mine", etc.

"Death" does not occur to the body. "Death" occurs to the idea of "self", "you" or "one".

Try to discern when people are worried about "death" or grieve "death" they are not worried or grieving over a material body but are grieving about ideas of "self", "persons", etc, such as "myself", "my mother", "my father", "my wife", "my friend", "my child", etc.

"Death" is all about the loss of personhood rather than about the loss of a material body.

Even if this is not 100% correct, can't you see the merits or reality of what is posted?

When 'self-views' are abandoned, suffering ceases. This is the core teaching of the Buddha.

 Metta :namaste:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 11:54:31 pm
You each seem to be dancing around with words and not being clear in plain English. Does information cease to be experienced in your belief after one dies? If you say yes then that is what modern Western Medical Science tends towards believing, if you say No, then that means you are saying experience of information continues after the body is dead and the body can be burned to ashes and the experience of information continues.

Which?

ground most likely believes in the end of all experience of information upon death.

The majority of people who actually call themselves Buddhists do not believe in the end of experience of information upon death.

There are two views generally pertaining to Non-Returning. One view is the cessation of all information, and this still may not mean such is expected to occur normally upon death. The other view is perpetuity of experience which does not cease and is not disturbed or ceasing.

Which are you stating? ground seems to be stating the view that whenone dies they do not experience and can not experience further information. Most Buddhists believe that when one dies they continue to experience information or will again.

Just speak in plain English please and without fancy terminology just say what you believe please.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 11:59:02 pm
So can you clearly state that one does not die or cease to stop experiencing information upon the death of the body?

Still don't get it.

Higher Buddhism is about freeing the mind from the idea of "you", "one", "self", "I", "me" "mine", etc.

"Death" does not occur to the body. "Death" occurs to the idea of "self", "you" or "one".

Try to discern when people are worried about "death" or grieve "death" they are not worried or grieving over a material body but are grieving about ideas of "self", "persons", etc, such as "myself", "my mother", "my father", "my wife", "my friend", "my child", etc.

"Death" is all about the loss of personhood rather than about the loss of a material body.

Even if this is not 100% correct, can't you see the merits or reality of what is posted?

When 'self-views' are abandoned, suffering ceases. This is the core teaching of the Buddha.

 Metta :namaste:

Yes, I know about this notion, and I am not even disputing such, but it appears as a dance around words not wanting to admit to simple things like if you believe that the ones who die experience information after death or again. Not dancing around the word death which can also be metaphorical sure.

Are you stating when a person dies, their body is dead, that they cease to experience information and never again experience information?

Right now for example you are assumed to be experiencing information. When you die m do yoy think you cease to experience all information forever or do you experience information again?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 27, 2017, 12:50:53 am

It is obvious that you are not a Dzogchen teacher - and not authorised to make such rash comments to others on the internet.



Whatever Ground is attempting to teach is just superstition because it doesn't exist but only imagined.  :curtain:


Dzogchen never has existed as anything but is a mere label that can be likened to the finger pointing to the moon. The finger isn't the moon.

If I would be trying to teach dzogchen this would be like trying to draw limitless space. Dzogchen cannnot be taught and those who claim otherwise are just obsessed with buddhist view of causality.
In the same vein dzogchen cannot be practiced and those who claim otherwise are just fabricating a contrived path out of that which is no path since it is spontaneously present.

Having said that there is no contradiction when I quote from the pali kanon. Why is this? Because it is the ground of being that manifests itself as and in both, confusion and non-confusion. Whether there is confusion or non-confusion is of no concern since it is the intelligence of pristine cognition that is guiding in both ways.
That's why the buddha could validly say:
Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url])


So when you reject and discredit dzogchen you are guided by the same intelligence of pristine cognition and that does not remove or add anything from or to the purity of dzogchen which means 'great perfection'.


Quote
"And what is dependent co-arising? From [not knowing] as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes [ordinary] consciousness. From [ordinary] consciousness as a requisite condition comes ... From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

...
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very [not knowing] comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of [ordinary] consciousness. From the cessation of [ordinary] consciousness comes.... From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])


Quote
"He discerns that 'This [meditation] is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of [not knowing]. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Pixie on July 27, 2017, 01:34:27 am
Quote from: ground
Dzogchen never has existed as anything but is a mere label that can be likened to the finger pointing to the moon. The finger isn't the moon.

If I would be trying to teach dzogchen this would be like trying to draw limitless space. Dzogchen cannnot be taught and those who claim otherwise are just obsessed with buddhist view of causality.
In the same vein dzogchen cannot be practiced and those who claim otherwise are just fabricating a contrived path out of that which is no path since it is spontaneously present.

In otherwords you haven't a clue and don't have a Dzogchen teacher   - as in the days when you used to rant nonsense about Tibetan Buddhism and call yourself "Tenzin" - and had never even been to a Tibetan Buddhist centre.

.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 27, 2017, 01:37:44 am
Quote from: ground
Dzogchen never has existed as anything but is a mere label that can be likened to the finger pointing to the moon. The finger isn't the moon.

If I would be trying to teach dzogchen this would be like trying to draw limitless space. Dzogchen cannnot be taught and those who claim otherwise are just obsessed with buddhist view of causality.
In the same vein dzogchen cannot be practiced and those who claim otherwise are just fabricating a contrived path out of that which is no path since it is spontaneously present.

In otherwords you haven't a clue and don't have a Dzogchen teacher
What do you think a teacher may teach when dzogchen cannot be taught?  :teehee:


"as in the days when you used to rant nonsense about Tibetan Buddhism and call yourself "Tenzin" - and had never even been to a Tibetan Buddhist centre."

See ... you're free to call 'nonsense' what your conditioned ordinary mind synthesizes upon your eyes seeing my words. But how can you know the places where I have been and where I have not been?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Pixie on July 27, 2017, 02:17:44 am
Quote
What do you think a teacher may teach when dzogchen cannot be taught?  :teehee:

Perhaps you should ask that question to Namkhai Norbu and the International Dzogchen Community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namkhai_Norbu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namkhai_Norbu)


.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 27, 2017, 02:19:31 am
Quote
What do you think a teacher may teach when dzogchen cannot be taught?  :teehee:

Perhaps you should ask that question to Namkhai Norbu and the International Dzogchen Community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namkhai_Norbu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namkhai_Norbu)


.

There are countless of such persons.   :wink1:

When there are no questions why should one ask anybody?

There are those who seek external guidance and have many questions and there are those who are immersed in pure knowing.

The former will be offered a contrived path by such persons and the latter simply have no questions.

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Pixie on July 27, 2017, 03:59:02 am
Quote from: ground
There are those who seek external guidance and have many questions and there are those who are immersed in pure knowing.


So presumably you consider yourself to be one of "those who are immersed in pure knowing" ?


 :wacky:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 27, 2017, 04:03:51 am
Quote from: ground
There are those who seek external guidance and have many questions and there are those who are immersed in pure knowing.


So presumably you consider yourself to be one of "those who are immersed in pure knowing" ?


 :wacky:

Please list all you consider to be 'teachers'.

I know better than all of them.  :fu:

Now you better take refuge with your herd and stop addressing your fearful views to me  :teehee:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Pixie on July 27, 2017, 05:47:43 am
Quote from: ground
Please list all you consider to be 'teachers'.

I know better than all of them. 

Now you better take refuge with your herd and stop addressing your fearful views to me  :teehee:


Well lordy, lordy!  What a sad and confused little man!

 I've got better things to do then make lists for you to mock, dearie.

Have a super dooper day.

 :hello:

.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 27, 2017, 06:03:30 am
Quote from: ground
Please list all you consider to be 'teachers'.

I know better than all of them. 

Now you better take refuge with your herd and stop addressing your fearful views to me  :teehee:




 I've got better things to do then make lists for you to mock, dearie.

 :hello:

.
Well obviously it takes some time for you to recognize that to mind your own business is better than running after people that don't want anything from you in the first place.   :fu:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 27, 2017, 11:11:01 am
Its annoying to need a "qualified teacher" for reality.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 27, 2017, 02:19:15 pm
Its annoying to need a "qualified teacher" for reality.

Actualy, I find having a guru pretty cool.  My teacher has excellent wit and wisdom beyond his years.  He likes Coca-Cola and the Rolling Stones.  And he is emminently qualified.  He holds both the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages.  He graduated first in his class at monastic college.  To me he's as much a spiritual friend and a teacher.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 27, 2017, 02:21:43 pm
Quote from: ground
There are those who seek external guidance and have many questions and there are those who are immersed in pure knowing.


So presumably you consider yourself to be one of "those who are immersed in pure knowing" ?


 :wacky:

I think he does.  That, or he's just trolling, which more than likely the case.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 27, 2017, 02:26:59 pm
So can you clearly state that one does not die or cease to stop experiencing information upon the death of the body?

Still don't get it.

Higher Buddhism is about freeing the mind from the idea of "you", "one", "self", "I", "me" "mine", etc.

"Death" does not occur to the body. "Death" occurs to the idea of "self", "you" or "one".

Try to discern when people are worried about "death" or grieve "death" they are not worried or grieving over a material body but are grieving about ideas of "self", "persons", etc, such as "myself", "my mother", "my father", "my wife", "my friend", "my child", etc.

"Death" is all about the loss of personhood rather than about the loss of a material body.

Even if this is not 100% correct, can't you see the merits or reality of what is posted?

When 'self-views' are abandoned, suffering ceases. This is the core teaching of the Buddha.

 Metta :namaste:

Actually the body does die.

In an ultimate sense there is "no body to die", but we aren't living in an ultimate context.  Our experience, and hense our world, is a relative one.  In this world we will die.  Dead as a doornail.  When the body dies, the skandhas will disolve and our "person" with it.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 27, 2017, 08:54:58 pm
Quote from: ground
There are those who seek external guidance and have many questions and there are those who are immersed in pure knowing.


So presumably you consider yourself to be one of "those who are immersed in pure knowing" ?


 :wacky:

I think he does. 
And I validly know. That's the advantage of direct perception!  :fu:

Pure knowing is when knowing knows itself. Awareness and emptiness as one.

Now where is direct perception involved here since pure knowing actually has its non-support on non-perception?

It is when phenomena arise ceaselessly from non-perception as their source that they are perceived as the known and the knowing being one.

That's the lamp of spontaneously present discriminative awareness.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 28, 2017, 01:30:47 am
Its annoying to need a "qualified teacher" for reality.

Actualy, I find having a guru pretty cool.  My teacher has excellent wit and wisdom beyond his years.  He likes Coca-Cola and the Rolling Stones.  And he is emminently qualified.  He holds both the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages.  He graduated first in his class at monastic college.  To me he's as much a spiritual friend and a teacher.

Yeah, that is really good! I think what I'm more troubled by is people halting the pursuit of or study of things or dissing certain people who are not officially recognized or having any degrees or halting people making statements or observations baded on lineages or hierarchies or whatever. Many people have great teachers, others have become disenchanted by teachers or inhibited by social structures and hierarchies.

Of course my attitude stems from an obvious agenda. Anything I can't get on top of easily and quickly, which would slow progress or require difficult work would have to go for the popular propaganda or "Buddhism for the People".

Furthermore it has to do with some serious psychological problems, everything from laziness to a hatred for authority structures which keep getting me in trouble with moderators and administrations everywhere since they can just sniff out and sense civil disobedience.

Ultimately, I am not suited for any sort of Catholic Organizational Structure.

Its good your teacher is your friend. He learned wonderful things and is sharing them with you. Certain foods I can not stomach though, and everything has a flavor. I could easily learn in an unstructured way but to take an official instruction really bothers me. It is also why I will likely "amount to nothing" in life, because I do not create structures for myself where I try to control or organize groups and do not work through any such organizations to gain reputation or rank or authority or even knowledge.

Un-schooled, un-disciplined, dis-obedient, rotten child.

Maybe I will learn to be a good little boy someday, but the thought of it really disturbs me.

This is because the Highest Power is Rebel. When there was Nothing it said No, when there was no hope, no possibility, it said Yes.

Take all you can from your teacher, especially learning through compassion overall. You have a boon that I can never have, because in your heart is the ability to respect and admire others. I do admire you for your humility and your ability to pursue lengthy projects and so many things, but I am completely absorbed in vile arrogance, which is terrible because when you are the best in your mind, that means everything else isn't quite as good as one thing, so there is far less good than in the mind of the one who views everything else as better or good, then only one thing is bad and everything else is better, that is why an arrogant fool has much more to be unhappy about.

I actually do have lots of qualifications but I realized no matter what you know or have or have done, most people will piss on it and disrespect it and those loved ones who have helped too, so I never mention such things or authorize myself by such, testing instead how people will treat someone they imagine to be a wholly illegitemate vagabond without a home, a foolish and bold loud mouth know-nothing. The answer is: badly! I remember these things when I treat everyone as my teacher, so long as they are not recognized by anyone as such except me! Official status, aquaintance, true function: maha-guru.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 28, 2017, 01:47:08 am
Another thing is I have a sneaking suspicion that there exists Racism among Buddhists and in all various religions, especially strongly heterogenous ethnic communities or organizations or traditions, and that people who who are from outside those cultures or gene-pools are never quite considered the same as those who are who are always considered more "real" as the others are considered forever outsiders. Like Japanese, Tibetan, Chinese. They may teach a person all sorts of stuff but I think its always almost a little joke inside. Look at the funny illegitimate white person imitating "our thing", we will teach him a little bit and save the real juice and special stuff for our people instead. Sometimes it might even be using the white man's lusty admiration and awe for the exotic to bolster ones own celebrity or fame, but never viewing them as peers really.

I'm the same way probably, except I have no peer group or anyone to turn to or trust, closed out of every gang. I go to the Latino Gang Bangers and say Hello guys, I am a Latino Gangbanger too! They say no you ain't fool, you jus' a wanna be essay. I say "I tried that already, they didn't accept me as an Essay" and they say "Wtf lets ice this fool" and I say "Tried that too, wasn't cool enough apparently". Then I run.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 28, 2017, 01:51:17 am
In Tibetan Buddhism they often say so and so reincarnated as another Tibetan kid, over and over, I guess so that is that they get back into the school instead of ever once saying as an African dude "Hello guys, I am so and so reincarnated, sorry to inconvenience you or frighten you, I thought one "African Dalai Lama" might be funny, guess I was wrong".
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 28, 2017, 02:08:37 pm
The thought of being reborn for the benefit of others is really a great thought. Is is so great that one is reluctant to argue against it. Honestly, although I am not a believer I have to admit that that thought is so conducive. Really, the one who can establish that thought as the basis of his path, can't go astray. It is impossible to go astray when this thought has been established.
But then ... there are those that can do without all of this. Nothing is better or worse.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on July 29, 2017, 01:28:41 am
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

It's a good question, given that the the aim of Buddhist practice is non-becoming.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on July 29, 2017, 01:29:53 am
Double post.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Solodris on July 29, 2017, 06:52:49 am
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

It's a good question, given that the the aim of Buddhist practice is non-becoming.  :wink1:

Even better questions are:

1. What does it mean to be liberated?

2. How can rebirth result in non-becoming?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 29, 2017, 09:00:49 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

It's a good question, given that the the aim of Buddhist practice is non-becoming.  :wink1:

Even better questions are:

1. What does it mean to be liberated?
Depends on what you want to be liberated from if you want to be liberated.

2. How can rebirth result in non-becoming?
This question presupposes a special reality of re-birth that cannot be found in the word 'rebirth'.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Solodris on July 29, 2017, 11:58:38 pm
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

It's a good question, given that the the aim of Buddhist practice is non-becoming.  :wink1:

Even better questions are:

1. What does it mean to be liberated?
Depends on what you want to be liberated from if you want to be liberated.

2. How can rebirth result in non-becoming?
This question presupposes a special reality of re-birth that cannot be found in the word 'rebirth'.

As a conditioned being I would be under the impression that liberation is perhaps the non-conditioning of being?

Does non-becoming require non-existence?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 30, 2017, 12:52:02 am
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

It's a good question, given that the the aim of Buddhist practice is non-becoming.  :wink1:

Even better questions are:

1. What does it mean to be liberated?
Depends on what you want to be liberated from if you want to be liberated.

2. How can rebirth result in non-becoming?
This question presupposes a special reality of re-birth that cannot be found in the word 'rebirth'.

As a conditioned being I would be under the impression that liberation is perhaps the non-conditioning of being?

Does non-becoming require non-existence?
Everything is conditioned. Why strive for non-conditioned-ness that doesn't exist?
Also why ponder about non-becoming? 'to become' is an expression in conventional launguage.. Stress arises only if one wants to become something that is either unattainable or not worthwhile or not worthwhile because of being unattainable. What is worthwhile to become?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Solodris on July 30, 2017, 09:35:22 am
According to the Buddha, craving for 3 things, in particular, causes rebirth, which is sensual pleasure, existence and non-existence. It is logical to think that craving for sensual pleasure and existence will cause rebirth, but how does craving for NON-existence causes rebirth? :r4wheel:

It's a good question, given that the the aim of Buddhist practice is non-becoming.  :wink1:

Even better questions are:

1. What does it mean to be liberated?
Depends on what you want to be liberated from if you want to be liberated.

2. How can rebirth result in non-becoming?
This question presupposes a special reality of re-birth that cannot be found in the word 'rebirth'.

As a conditioned being I would be under the impression that liberation is perhaps the non-conditioning of being?

Does non-becoming require non-existence?
Everything is conditioned. Why strive for non-conditioned-ness that doesn't exist?
Also why ponder about non-becoming? 'to become' is an expression in conventional launguage.. Stress arises only if one wants to become something that is either unattainable or not worthwhile or not worthwhile because of being unattainable. What is worthwhile to become?

One's own nature.

Thank you, it seems as though conventional language had to click with "private language" in order for it to actually make existential sense to me; for example: After my fourth visualisation meditation session I asked my teacher: "Have you ever meditated over a Yidam?", He replied "That's what we just did?" (Medicine Buddha for the curious people), and I simply stated back "Oh, so that's the definition.". Both of us walked away laughing.

My first question to my second visualisation teacher was "Where do you buy pants?".

I suppose the Sotapanna is the first person in the world to wake up one morning and say "Never again..." and actually mean it.

Theory is starting to move into practice in other words. Without the help of this forum I would have had nothing, as I clearly had nothing to lose when I got here. Sincerest gratitude, loving-kindness and endearment to all of those I had the good fortune to encounter on this very regretful event. I suppose a Zen person would say, "Thank you all for pointing out the path that literally leads nowhere, so that I may go from having nothing to having even less, sincerely. I'll be sure to offer the greatest magnitude of nothing as a gift to those who require less than little and even more to those who require much less than little by having more.".

*Puts on ring and disappears*
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on July 31, 2017, 01:57:24 am
Everything is conditioned.

Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.   
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 31, 2017, 02:24:54 am
Everything is conditioned.

Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.
How could any assertion not be conditioned? So whatever is asserted necessarily is conditioned.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 31, 2017, 03:38:28 pm
Everything is conditioned.

Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.

I can't speak for the Theravada, but the Mahayana doesn't.  There are the teachings around Dharmakaya.  This is the unconditioned body of a Buddha.  There are 2 others that are - Nirmanakaya and Samboghakaya.  Then there is Tathagatagarbha or Buddha Nature.  This generally taught as non-arising.  Then, of course, there is Nirvana.  This is release from Samsara, which means it's outside conditioned existence.

I suppose Theravada has similar teachings, but I don't know.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 31, 2017, 03:40:36 pm
Everything is conditioned.

Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.
How could any assertion not be conditioned? So whatever is asserted necessarily is conditioned.

Well, that makes about zero sense.  Must be that Direct Pretention Perception.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 31, 2017, 08:21:54 pm
Everything is conditioned.


Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.

How could any assertion not be conditioned? So whatever is asserted necessarily is conditioned.


Well, that makes about zero sense. 

Assertion is application of conditioned conventional language. What is itself conditioned cannot be an expression of an unconditioned.

Conditionedness of all assertions however does not negate that some assertions can be valid knowledge, it just excludes that truth inheres in any of them since the objects arising from the linguistic signs are empty of true existence.


Must be that Direct  Perception.

If an assertion is based on direct perception then it is valid knowledge.



Assertions are verbal fabrications:

Quote
"These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications."

"But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"

"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"But why are in-&-out breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?"

"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 31, 2017, 08:27:38 pm
Assertions are verball fabrications.

Yes, this is definitely Direct Pretension  ...... errr..... Affectation ..... Perception?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 31, 2017, 08:31:16 pm
Assertions are verbal fabrications.

Yes, this is definitely Direct Perception?   :lmfao:

The arising of a verbal fabrication can be directly perceived as it arises from lucid emptiness.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on July 31, 2017, 08:37:48 pm
Assertions are verbal fabrications.

Yes, this is definitely Direct Perception?   :lmfao:


Editing someone elses post?

Vacuous Knaughtiness!!!

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on July 31, 2017, 08:41:10 pm
Assertions are verbal fabrications.

Yes, this is definitely Direct Perception?   :lmfao:


Editing someone elses post?

Vacuous Knaughtiness!!!

The post of another cannot be edited unless one is the forum administrator. Quoting only the relevant in the course of a communication however is common use in forums.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 01, 2017, 01:05:38 am
Everything is conditioned.

Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.
How could any assertion not be conditioned? So whatever is asserted necessarily is conditioned.

Meh.  Are you able to give a straightforward answer to my question?
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 01, 2017, 01:06:55 am
Vacuous Knaughtiness!!!

Pretentious piddle!   :teehee:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on August 01, 2017, 01:31:33 am
Everything is conditioned.

Which Buddhist schools assert this?  Certainly not all of them.
How could any assertion not be conditioned? So whatever is asserted necessarily is conditioned.

Meh.  Are you able to give a straightforward answer to my question?

I have given a clear explanation above why everything is conditioned in the context of assertions. If you are interested in the view of buddhist schools please look them up yourself.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 01, 2017, 01:42:24 am
I have given a clear explanation above why everything is conditioned in the context of assertions. If you are interested in the view of buddhist schools please look them up yourself.

Double meh.   :wacky:
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: IdleChater on August 01, 2017, 05:31:17 am
Assertions are verbal fabrications.

Yes, this is definitely Direct Perception?   :lmfao:


Yep.  Vacuous.

Editing someone elses post?

Vacuous Knaughtiness!!!

The post of another cannot be edited unless one is the forum administrator. Quoting only the relevant in the course of a communication however is common use in forums.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Rahul on August 01, 2017, 07:52:09 pm
Ground you are too much into semantics and logic. This might be appreciated in a university class of philosophy but not in a forum where people are looking for something insightful or practical. I guess everyone else would agree that we are here for knowledge sharing, which works best when we 'communicate'. Communication = the process of passing on a message in a format so that it is interpreted by the target audience the way you intend them to interpret. So either your intentions are not right, or the format of your message is not right. Eitherways it's failed communication. You might be enjoying showcasing your expertise in semantics or logic etc. but I tell you not many of us here are enjoying it.

Having said that, I hope you take it in the right spirit. I am looking forward to useful comments from you.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on August 02, 2017, 02:53:38 am
Ground you are too much into semantics and logic.
I am into rationality exclusively. And since there are words which are empty of meaning from the outset but do cause the arising of a diversity of meanings in the many minds of readers semantics is key point in the context of rationality.

This might be appreciated in a university class of philosophy but not in a forum where people are looking for something insightful or practical.
Rationality that focuses on semantics is the basis for direct perception of emptiness. Why? Because people habitually confuse language with truth but language is just language and words are empty of meaning from the outset since meaning is synthesized by conditioned minds.

I guess everyone else would agree that we are here for knowledge sharing, which works best when we 'communicate'.
Perfect. I am expressing my valid knowledge.

... So either your intentions are not right, or the format of your message is not right.
Or you are just not suitable to be appropriately inspired. But that would not matter. My words can be read, ignored or rejected. Everybody is free.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: Rahul on August 02, 2017, 04:23:48 am
Ground you are too much into semantics and logic.
I am into rationality exclusively. And since there are words which are empty of meaning from the outset but do cause the arising of a diversity of meanings in the many minds of readers semantics is key point in the context of rationality.

This might be appreciated in a university class of philosophy but not in a forum where people are looking for something insightful or practical.
Rationality that focuses on semantics is the basis for direct perception of emptiness. Why? Because people habitually confuse language with truth but language is just language and words are empty of meaning from the outset since meaning is synthesized by conditioned minds.

I guess everyone else would agree that we are here for knowledge sharing, which works best when we 'communicate'.
Perfect. I am expressing my valid knowledge.

... So either your intentions are not right, or the format of your message is not right.
Or you are just not suitable to be appropriately inspired. But that would not matter. My words can be read, ignored or rejected. Everybody is free.

You are applying emptiness selectively. It's not just the words, but rationality itself is empty, in the sense that it depends on a rational mind to arise. Everything that is perceived is characterized by emptiness.

But language is not that useless a tool as you are depicting. Words have specific accepted meaning and in the most common situations most of the people will be able to communicate to a good degree of precision, and that's how the whole society has been going on without falling apart. Putting too much emphasis on semantics and 'emptiness' of words sounds plain obsession. And do you think you or anyone can guarantee that your comments are not subject to diverse interpretations?

Plus it's amazing to see that somewhere you defy the notion of 'truth', and now you assert that you are expressing your 'valid knowledge'.

Anyways, I don't think our conversation would go any far with your obsession. But I'll keep an open mind with regards to your comments.

Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: ground on August 02, 2017, 08:24:14 pm
Ground you are too much into semantics and logic.
I am into rationality exclusively. And since there are words which are empty of meaning from the outset but do cause the arising of a diversity of meanings in the many minds of readers semantics is key point in the context of rationality.

This might be appreciated in a university class of philosophy but not in a forum where people are looking for something insightful or practical.
Rationality that focuses on semantics is the basis for direct perception of emptiness. Why? Because people habitually confuse language with truth but language is just language and words are empty of meaning from the outset since meaning is synthesized by conditioned minds.

I guess everyone else would agree that we are here for knowledge sharing, which works best when we 'communicate'.
Perfect. I am expressing my valid knowledge.

... So either your intentions are not right, or the format of your message is not right.
Or you are just not suitable to be appropriately inspired. But that would not matter. My words can be read, ignored or rejected. Everybody is free.

You are applying emptiness selectively. It's not just the words, but rationality itself is empty, in the sense that it depends on a rational mind to arise. Everything that is perceived is characterized by emptiness.
you have not understood my words appropriately. Since I am perceiving emptiness directly there is nothing perceptible that is not empty, be it words or thoughts or trees or self etc.

But language is not that useless a tool as you are depicting. Words have specific accepted meaning and in the most common situations most of the people will be able to communicate to a good degree of precision, and that's how the whole society has been going on without falling apart. Putting too much emphasis on semantics and 'emptiness' of words sounds plain obsession. And do you think you or anyone can guarantee that your comments are not subject to diverse interpretations?
you have not understood my words appropriately. I never said that what is empty would be useless. Everything is empty but many things are very useful nevertheless and so is empty language. E.g. there would be no science and scientific progress if there were no words, e.g. no internet or healing medicine.

And do you think you or anyone can guarantee that your comments are not subject to diverse interpretations?
All words are subject to diverse interpretations exactly because they are empty of meaning from the outset, i.e. meaning does not inhere in words.


Plus it's amazing to see that somewhere you defy the notion of 'truth', and now you assert that you are expressing your 'valid knowledge'.
Validity isn't truth. Validity can only refer to a linguistic expression because if there weren't verbal statements or assertions the talk of validity would have no basis. Validity is the correct application of conventional language in the context of the directly perceptible.
Truth however never has existed as anything. Why? Because everything is empty of true existence.

Anyways, I don't think our conversation would go any far with your obsession. But I'll keep an open mind with regards to your comments.
I can only authentically express liberation. Sometimes I use analytical language, the expression of rationality, and sometimes I use language that is metaphorical and/or composed of similies or the like, the approximate expression of the inexpressible.
Keeping an open mind is good since thus useful inspiration is not excluded.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 05, 2017, 02:09:42 pm
The majority of people considering themselves or calling themselves Buddhist or influenced by things they called Buddhist rejected Non-Existence as Nirvana or PariNirvana and considered Nirvana to be a perpetual state of non-flux and wakefulness, devoid of death and ups and downs sleeping waking etc, so a stable state of solid ongoing perfection, not total Annhilation which can not be experienced, it was believed to be experiential reality an attainable experience.

There is writing which fully and explicitly rejects "craving non-existence" and for most of the generations of people associating with Buddhism, Non-Existence was never thought to be the goal, but ongoing Awakened goodness, peace, and tranquility which has gone beyond painful and disturbing flux.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: francis on August 06, 2017, 07:40:53 am
The majority of people considering themselves or calling themselves Buddhist or influenced by things they called Buddhist rejected Non-Existence as Nirvana or PariNirvana and considered Nirvana to be a perpetual state of non-flux and wakefulness, devoid of death and ups and downs sleeping waking etc, so a stable state of solid ongoing perfection, not total Annhilation which can not be experienced, it was believed to be experiential reality an attainable experience.

There is writing which fully and explicitly rejects "craving non-existence" and for most of the generations of people associating with Buddhism, Non-Existence was never thought to be the goal, but ongoing Awakened goodness, peace, and tranquility which has gone beyond painful and disturbing flux.

There are also writings which fully and explicitly reject "craving" for existence.
Title: Re: Craving for Non-Existence
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 06, 2017, 12:03:38 pm
The majority of people considering themselves or calling themselves Buddhist or influenced by things they called Buddhist rejected Non-Existence as Nirvana or PariNirvana and considered Nirvana to be a perpetual state of non-flux and wakefulness, devoid of death and ups and downs sleeping waking etc, so a stable state of solid ongoing perfection, not total Annhilation which can not be experienced, it was believed to be experiential reality an attainable experience.

There is writing which fully and explicitly rejects "craving non-existence" and for most of the generations of people associating with Buddhism, Non-Existence was never thought to be the goal, but ongoing Awakened goodness, peace, and tranquility which has gone beyond painful and disturbing flux.

There are also writings which fully and explicitly reject "craving" for existence.

Yes, very true. So what is in between those two? Neither existence in the sense of this existence of destructive flux and death and time, notions connected in the word Kal for example, and not total annhilation of all experience whatsoever which would be Non-Existence? What is in between those two extremes is the elimination of time sense, death fear, flux experience. What is in the middle is perpetuity, freedom from time, freedom from death, to be safe and fearless and not dying or running out of time or exhausting resources like karma calories.
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