Author Topic: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication as (verbal, bodily and mental) question.  (Read 2376 times)

Offline ss213

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Hi, I have a question regarding the Pali meaning of the word Fabrications.
- First we have Fabrications as Saṅkhāra, the fourth ageggate of clinging (Skandha), which usually refferss to volitional formations (intention), and is some times translated as "mental fabrications".
- Then we have the Kamabhu Sutta (SN 41.6) which speaks of three types of fabrications (bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications and mental fabrications). From these, mental fabrications include perception and feeling, which correspond to the second and third clinging agreggages (Skandhas).

And here comes my doubt, (because some times the fourth ageggate is named "mental fabrications").
- Does the fourth agreggate (Saṅkhāra) include the second and third agreggate in it? If it does why are they separate?
- What is the Pali word for "mental fabrications" in the Kamabhu Sutta?

Thanks for your help!

Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 02:48:11 pm »
Thanks for your help!


The meaning & contexts of the word 'sankhara' is very wide. It can be a noun, verb, adjective, etc.

'Sankhara khanda' refers to the aggregate that creates mental formations (thoughts, emotions, defilements, etc), 'creates' or 'solidifies' meaning or being/becoming (e.g. 'Americans are x because they are y) or generates karma (actions, decisions, intentions, etc).

Where as 'body, verbal & mind' sankhara refer to those phenomena that influence, affect or 'condition' other things, such as shampoo 'conditions' hair or dye 'conditions' color in cloth. Refer to MN 44 (although not all of the translation is accurate to express to correct meaning).

Quote
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are the verbal sankhara. MN 44


The body conditioner is the breathing because breathing affects both the life & state of the body. If the breathing is short the body will be stressed.

The verbal conditioner is applied & sustained thought because what is spoken is 1st thought.

The mind (citta) conditioner is perception & feeling because they condition the state of the mind. For example, a feeling of pleasure & perception of 'beauty' will condition mental formations of lust, love & the associated thought becomings. The suttas state:

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With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.  MN 18


more below. good luck:  :namaste:

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I would like to take this opportunity to discuss all the meanings of the term "sankhara." This is a very common and important word in the Pali scriptures, but many people have problems with it due to its different uses and meanings. Languages are like that, uncertain and seemingly unreliable. The single word "sankhara" can mean "conditioner," the cause that conditions; it can mean "condition," the result of the action of conditioning; and it can mean "'conditioning," the activity or process of conditioning. We use the same word for the subject of the conditioning, "the concocter," as well as the object, "the concoction." We even use it for the activity, "the concocting," itself. This may be a bit confusing for you, so please remember that "sankhara" has three meanings. The correct meaning depends on the context. This knowledge will be valuable in your further studies. (74)

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing.htm


Offline ss213

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Thanks Issa, you have been very useful. I'll try to keep those meanings in mind every time I encounter the word.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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The following from:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html

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"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.


Each citation refers to "fabrication" as mental factors:  thoughts, words, ideas, feelings, emotions. 

Quote
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form... or feeling to be the self... the self as possessing feeling... feeling as in the self... self as in feeling... or perception to be the self... the self as possessing perception... perception as in the self... self as in perception... or fabrications to be the self... the self as possessing fabrications... fabrications as in the self... self as in fabrications... or consciousness to be the self... the self as possessing consciousness... consciousness as in the self... self as in consciousness.

"Now that assumption is a fabrication. What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by the feeling born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.

"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."


Views are fabrications,  feelings are fabrications, assumptions are fabrications, perspectives are fabrications, doubts, uncertainty, coming-to-no-conclusion are fabrications. 
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 05:10:21 am »
The following from:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html


SN 22.81 is is an example of sankhara khanda but the word sankhara in Pali has a far broader range. For example, the word 'ayyu sankhara', which, the same as 'kaya sankhara', is purely physical.  :namaste:

 
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"Friend, are vitality-fabrications (āyusaṅkhārā) the same thing as feeling-states? Or are vitality-fabrications one thing, and feeling-states another?"

"Vitality-fabrications are not the same thing as feeling-states, friend. If vitality-fabrications were the same thing as feeling-states, the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception would not be discerned. It's because vitality-fabrications are one thing and feeling-states another that the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling is discerned."

"When this body lacks how many qualities does it lie discarded & forsaken, like a senseless log?"

"When this body lacks these three qualities — vitality, heat & consciousness — it lies discarded & forsaken like a senseless log."

"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Hi Issa:  Try this from The Pali Text Society:

Quote
Sankhāra
Sankhāra [fr. saŋ+kṛ, not Vedic, but as saŋskāra Epic & Class. Sk. meaning "preparation" and "sacrament," also in philosophical literature "former impression, disposition, " cp. vāsanā] one of the most difficult terms in Buddhist metaphysics, in which the blending of the subjective -- objective view of the world and of happening, peculiar to the East, is so complete, that it is almost impossible for Occidental terminology to get at the root of its meaning in a translation. We can only convey an idea of its import by representing several sides of its application, without attempting to give a "word" as a def. trsln. -- An exhaustive discussion of the term is given by Franke in his Dīgha translation (pp. 307 sq., esp. 311 sq.); see also the analysis in Cpd. 273 -- 276. -- Lit. "preparation, get up"; appld: coefficient (of consciousness as well as of physical life, cp. viññāṇa), constituent, constituent potentiality; (pl.) synergies, cause -- combination, as in S iii.87; discussed, B. Psy., p. 50 sq. (cp. DhsA 156, where paraphrased in defn of sa -- sankhāra with "ussāha, payoga, upāya, paccaya -- gahaṇa"); composition, aggregate. 1. Aggregate of the conditions or essential properties for a given process or result -- e. g. (i.) the sum of the conditions or properties making up or resulting in life or existence; the essentials or "element" of anything ( -- ˚), e. g. āyusaṅkhāra, life -- element D ii.106; S ii.266; PvA 210; bhavasankhāra, jīvitasaṅkhāra, D ii.99, 107. (ii.) Essential conditions, antecedents or synergy (co -- ordinated activity), mental coefficients, requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚, citta˚, or mano˚, described respectively as "respiration," "attention and consideration," "percepts and feelings," "because these are (respectively) bound up with," or "precede" those M i.301 (cp. 56); S iv.293; Kvu 395 (cp. trsln 227); Vism 530 sq.; DhsA 8; VbhA 142 sq. -- 2. One of the five khandhas, or constitutional elements of physical life (see khandha), comprising all the citta -- sampayutta -- cetasikā dhammā -- i. e. the mental concomitants, or adjuncts which come, or tend to come, into consciousness at the uprising of a citta, or unit of cognition Dhs 1 (cp. M iii.25). As thus classified, the saṅkhāra's form the mental factor corresponding to the bodily aggregate or rūpakkhandha, and are in contrast to the three khandhas which represent a single mental function only. But just as kāya stands for both body and action, so do the concrete mental syntheses called sankhārā tend to take on the implication of synergies, of purposive intellection, connoted by the term abhisaṅkhāra, q. v. -- e. g. M iii.99, where saṅkhārā are a purposive, aspiring state of mind to induce a specific rebirth; S ii.82, where puññaŋ,

-- 665 --
opuññaŋ, āṇeñjaŋ s. abhisankharoti, is, in D iii.217 & Vbh 135, catalogued as the three classes of abhisankhāra; S ii.39, 360; A ii.157, where s. is tantamount to sañcetanā; Miln 61, where s., as khandha, is replaced by cetanā (purposive conception). Thus, too, the ss. in the Paṭiccasamuppāda formula are considered as the aggregate of mental conditions which, under the law of kamma, bring about the inception of the paṭisandhiviññāṇa, or first stirring of mental life in a newly begun individual. Lists of the psychologically, or logically distinguishable factors making up the composite saṅkhārakkhandha, with constants and variants, are given for each class of citta in Dhs 62, etc. (N.B. -- Read cetanā for vedanā, § 338.) Phassa and cetanā are the two constant factors in the s -- kkhandha. These lists may be compared with the later elaboration of the saṅkhāra -- elements given at Vism 462 sq. -- 3. sankhārā (pl.) in popular meaning. In the famous formula (and in many other connections, as e. g. sabbe sankhārā) "aniccā vata sankhārā uppādavaya -- dhammino" (D ii.157; S i.6, 158, 200; ii.193; Th 1, 1159; J i.392, cp. Vism 527), which is rendered by Mrs. Rh. D. (Brethren, p 385 e. g.) as "O, transient are our life's experiences! Their nature 'tis to rise and pass away," we have the use of s. in quite a general & popular sense of "life, physical or material life"; and sabbe sankhārā means "everything, all physical and visible life, all creation." Taken with caution the term "creation" may be applied as t.t. in the Paṭiccasamuppāda, when we regard avijjā as creating, i. e. producing by spontaneous causality the sankhāras, and sankhārā as "natura genita atque genitura" (the latter with ref. to the foll. viññāṇa). If we render it by "formations" (cp. Oldenberg's "Gestaltungen," Buddha 71920, p. 254), we imply the mental "constitutional" element as well as the physical, although the latter in customary materialistic popular philosophy is the predominant factor (cp. the discrepancies of "life eternal" and "life is extinct" in one & the same European term). None of the "links" in the Paṭicca -- samuppāda meant to the people that which it meant or was supposed to mean in the subtle and schematic philosophy (dhammā duddasā nipuṇā!) of the dogmatists. -- Thus sankhārā are in the widest sense the "world of phenomena" (cp. below ˚loka), all things which have been made up by pre -- existing causes. -- At PvA 71 we find sankhārā in lit. meaning as "things" (preparations) in defn of ye keci (bhogā) "whatever." The sabbe s. at S ii.178 (trsln "all the things of this world") denote all 5 aggregates exhausting all conditioned things; cp. Kvu 226 (trsln "things"); Mhvs iv.66 (: the material and transitory world); Dh 154 (vi -- sankhāragataŋ cittaŋ=mind divested of all material things); DhsA 304 (trsln "kamma activities," in connection avijjā -- paccaya -- s˚); Cpd. 211, n. 3. -- The defn of sankhārā at Vism 526 (as result of avijjā & cause of viññāṇa in the P. -- S.) is: sankhataŋ abhisankharontī ti sankhārā. Api ca: avijjā -- paccayā sankhārā sankhāra -- saddena āgata -- sankhārā ti duvidhā sankhārā; etc. with further def. of the 4 sankhāras. <-> 4. Var. passages for sankhāra in general: D ii. 213; iii.221 sq., M ii.223 (imassa dukkha -- nidānassa sankhāraŋ padahato sankhāra -- ppadhānā virāgo hoti); S iii.69 (ekanta -- dukkhā sankhārā); iv.216 sq. (sankhārāṇaŋ khaya -- dhammatā; id. with vaya˚, virāga˚, nirodha˚ etc.); Sn 731 (yaŋ kiñci dukkhaŋ sambhoti sabbaŋ sankhāra -- paccayā; sankhārānaŋ nirodhena n'atthi dukkhassa sambhavo); Vism 453, 462 sq. (the 51), 529 sq.; DhA iii.264, 379; VbhA 134 (4 fold), 149 (3 fold), 192 (āyūhanā); PvA 41 (bhijjana -- dhammā). <-> Of passages dealing with the sankhāras as aniccā, vayadhammā, anattā, dukkhā etc. the foll. may be mentioned: Vin i.13; S i.200; iii.24; iv.216, 259; v.56, 345; M iii.64, 108; A i.286; ii.150 sq.; iii.83, 143; iv.13, 100; It 38; Dh 277, 383; Ps i.37, 132; ii.48; 109 sq.; Nd2 444, 450; also Nd2 p. 259 (s. v. sankhārā).
   -- upekkhā equanimity among "things" Vism 161, 162. -- ûpasama allayment of the constituents of life Dh 368, 381; cp. DhA iv.108. -- khandha the aggregate of (mental) coefficients D iii.233; Kvu 578; Tikp 61; DhsA 345; VbhA 20, 42. -- dukkha the evil of material life, constitutional or inherent ill VbhA 93 (in the classification of the sevenfold sukkha). -- paccayā (viññāṇaŋ) conditioned by the synergies (is vital consciousness), the second linkage in the Paṭicca -- samuppāda (q. v.) Vism 577; VbhA 152 sq. -- padhāna concentration on the sankhāras M ii.223. -- majjhattatā=˚upekkhā VbhA 283. -- loka the material world, the world of formation (or phenomena), creation, loka "per se," as contrasted to satta -- loka, the world of (morally responsible) beings, loka "per hominem" Vism 205; VbhA 456; SnA 442.


source:  http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:2800.pali
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 01:02:18 pm »
Hi Issa:  Try this from The Pali Text Society:

Unnecessary, thanks. The word 'sankhara' refers to anything that is conditioned, be it physical or mental. The only thing that is not 'sankhara' is Nibbana.  :namaste:

Quote
Sabbe  saṅkhārā aniccā
Sabbe saṅkhārā

All conditioned things are impermanent
All conditioned things are unsatisfactory

Maggavagga

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What do you think of this, O monks? Is form permanent or impermanent?"

Impermanent, O Lord.

Now, that which is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory or satisfactory?

Unsatisfactory, O Lord.

SN 22.59

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The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.

SN 12.2

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Siyā  pana, bhante, aññopi pariyāyo, yathā ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃ vacanāyā ti?

Siyā, ānanda. Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo – saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu. Imā kho, ānanda, dve dhātuyo yato jānāti passati – ettāvatāpi kho, ānanda, ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃ vacanāyā’’ti.

Venerable sir, might there be another way in which a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements?”

There might be, Ānanda. There are, Ānanda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.

MN 115

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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ISSAf:  "Unnecessary, thanks. The word 'sankhara' refers to anything that is conditioned, be it physical or mental. The only thing that is not 'sankhara' is Nibbana.  :namaste:"

Thank you for the concise definition.  Suggest you write to the Pali Text Society and straighten them out.   :wink1:

Are you saying that nibanna is attained without condition or conditioning?  If so, how did you verify and validate that for yourself?  Or, are you simply using a definition you read someplace?  If the latter, where?

Just curious.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 03:21:25 pm by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication as (verbal, bodily and mental)
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 09:41:50 pm »
Quote
I would like to take this opportunity to discuss all the meanings of the term "sankhara." This is a very common and important word in the Pali scriptures, but many people have problems with it due to its different uses and meanings. The single word "sankhara" can mean "conditioner," the cause that conditions; it can mean "condition," the result of the action of conditioning; and it can mean "'conditioning," the activity or process of conditioning. We use the same word for the subject of the conditioning, "the concocter," as well as the object, "the concoction." We even use it for the activity, "the concocting," itself. This may be a bit confusing for you, so please remember that "sankhara" has three meanings. The correct meaning depends on the context. This knowledge will be valuable in your further studies.

In the first steps of this practice, those concerned with the kaya (body), we study the breath in a special way. We note every kind of breath that occurs and study what each is like. Long breaths, short breaths, calm breaths, violent breaths, fast breaths and slow breaths: we must know them all. Of all the different kinds of breath which arise, know what nature each one has, know its characteristics and know its functions.

Observe what influence the different breaths have upon the flesh-body. The breath has a great influence on the rest of the physical body and this influence needs to be seen clearly. Observe both sides of the relationship until it is obvious that they are interconnected and inseparable. See that the breath-body conditions and concocts the flesh-body. That is the first step. Make a special study of the breath. Know the characteristics of all its different forms. Then understand that it is connected to this flesh-body too. This will allow us to regulate the flesh-body by means of regulating the breath.

In step three - "experiencing all bodies," experiencing both the breath and this flesh-body - each of these three meanings is practiced. First, we contemplate the flesh-body as the thing conditioned by the breath. Then, we see the breath as the conditioner of the flesh-body. Lastly, we observe the activity of conditioning that always exists simultaneously between the two of them. Thus, in the practice of step three we see the conditioner, the condition, and the action of conditioning. This conditioning of the body is the physical level of sankhara. We have not yet seen it on the mental level. Step three is this work of seeing these three things together, simultaneously and continuously, within the mind. Then, you will see everything concerning the term "sankhara," especially as it relates to the kaya and its activity, right here in step three.

When we have studied this fact until it is plainly, obviously and universally understood as explained above, then we will be able to experience all three of these facts together in one moment. Even for the duration of just one in-breath, or for just one out-breath, we can experience all three facts in just one stroke of the breath. If we are able to do so, then we have "fully experienced the kaya-sankhara (body-conditioner)" and step three is successfully completed.

The essence of practicing step three is to know that there are two kaya, and to be able to regulate one kaya through the other kaya. That is, we can regulate the flesh-body through the breath-body. Once we are certain or this, once we see it clearly, once we are convinced by our experience of this fact with each in-breath and out-breath, then we have realized success in our practice of step three.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa


more here >>> http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Pali_study_-_the_meaning_of_'sankhara'

Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2014, 02:30:02 am »

Are you saying that nibanna is attained without condition or conditioning?  If so, how did you verify and validate that for yourself?  Or, are you simply using a definition you read someplace?  If the latter, where? Just curious.

The Pali scriptures call Nibbana the 'unconditioned'. Standard doctrine.  :namaste:
Quote
Sankhata [pp. of sankharoti; Sk. saŋskṛta] 1. put together, compound; conditioned, produced by a combination of causes, "created," brought about as effect of actions in former births S ii.26; iii.56; Vin ii.284; It 37, 88; J ii.38; Nett 14; Dhs 1085; DhsA 47. As nt. that which is produced from a cause, i. e. the sankhāras S i.112; A i.83, 152; Nett 22. asankhata not put together, not proceeding from a cause Dhs 983 (so read for sankhata), 1086; Ep. of nibbāna "the Unconditioned" (& therefore unproductive of further life) A i.152; S iv.359 sq.; Kvu 317 sq.; Pv iii.710 (=laddhanāma amataŋ PvA 207); Miln 270; Dhs 583 (see trsln ibid.), 1439. The discernment of higher jhāna- states as sankhata is a preliminary to the attainment of Arahantship M iii.244. Cp. abhi˚; visankhita; visankhāra. -- 2. cooked, dressed Mhvs 32, 39. -- 3. embellished Mhvs 22, 29.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication as (verbal, bodily and mental)
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 04:43:21 am »
If people are going to sit here and present themselves as armchair scholars on this topic, I for one expect them to do their home work and not make blanket statements:

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/dhammatalk_forum/dhamma_talk/dt_009.conditioned.vs.own-made.htm


Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 11:10:58 am »

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/dhammatalk_forum/dhamma_talk/dt_009.conditioned.vs.own-made.htm

Unusual article, with unusual terminology, such as 'own making' or 'self-made', & a description of Nibbana contrary to the scriptures, which states:

Quote
Nibbana is attained at such a time as having seen the point where the perception of sense experience ends, the knowledge arises that this very experience (seeing, perception, insight) is constructed by one's self (own-made) and is subject to change and is let go.


In the old scriptures, Nibbana is not the ending of the perception of sense experience. In the old scriptures, Nibbana is the ending of craving:  :namaste:

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Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element....

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.042-049x.irel.html#iti-044


Further:

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"Master Gotama, is stress self-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then is it other-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then is it both self-made and other-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then is it the case that stress, being neither self-made nor other-made, arises spontaneously?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then does stress not exist?"

"It's not the case, Kassapa, that stress does not exist. Stress does exist."

"Well, in that case, does Master Gotama not know or see stress?"

"Kassapa, it's not the case that I don't know or see stress. I know stress. I see stress."

From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
 From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
 From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
 From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
 From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
 From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
 From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
 From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging.
 From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming.
 From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
 From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications... From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.017.than.html




Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication as (verbal, bodily and mental)
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2014, 11:19:20 am »
Personally, I don't give a damn what the "old scriptures" say in this regard because that wasn't what I was commenting on... what I am commenting on is the fact that there is debate on this topic, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. What makes it all the funnier is that both you and I called James out for doing the same thing that you're doing right now.

Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 11:33:18 am »

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/dhammatalk_forum/dhamma_talk/dt_009.conditioned.vs.own-made.htm


The writer states:

Quote
The result is complete and utter detachment from everything whatsoever. If, while experiencing this experience of the freedom of utter detachment one realizes that this is the freedom one has been seeking, then one may say one has eliminated blindness, ended own-making, and has attained Nibbana.

One can now see that according to the terminology just used, one can say that the attaining of Nibbana is conditioned but that it is not own-made.


If 'one' or 'self' is still there, the old books say it is not Nibbana:

Quote
He perceives Unbinding (Nibbana) as Unbinding. Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html


The writer also states:

Quote
Yes Nibbana is attained by the practice of the path and that does make it something conditioned.


A simile. A car parked in the sun heats up. The car is entered & the windows are opened to allow cool air in. The cool air (Nibbana) is not conditioned by the opening of the window. The air was always cool & the window merely had to be opened to allow the always existent cool air in. This is Nibbana.

The writer states, in response to this:
Quote

This is not supported by anything in the suttas and enters the discussion of existence versus non-existence


When the old books refer to  existence versus non-existence, they are not referring to Nibbana but to conditioned things.

Quote
By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html


The old books call Nibbana the unconditioned:

Quote
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.irel.html


 :namaste:

Offline Issa

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Re: Fabrications as Saṅkhāra vs Fabrication as (verbal, bodily and mental)
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2014, 11:35:31 am »
Personally, I don't give a damn what the "old scriptures" say in this regard because that wasn't what I was commenting on... what I am commenting on is the fact that there is debate on this topic, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. What makes it all the funnier is that both you and I called James out for doing the same thing that you're doing right now.

Why? Why can't the old scriptures form part of the debate?  :curtain:

 


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