Author Topic: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!  (Read 1586 times)

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2017, 07:32:19 am »
One may have to not over-complicate things with difficult English terminology used in extremely complex and unusual ways.

Buddhism is extremely old, and the people and their language and ideas may not have been as complex as people are making them out to be right now or even among earlier intellectuals.

If one tries to understand the words in a very primitive way in an Ancient Indic context, it may give one a more authentic sense of how it might have been understood by the people of the period in their culture and language which was also inclusive of their cosmological notions and subtle and overt ideas regarding reality or the natural world or experience which was not likely the same as someone born a few years ago in modern Australia or modern North America. Ideas which are considered strange now were common back then, things rejected now were taken as granted and obviously true back then.

This is why beginners, like your good self, need a real (face to face) teacher to guide you along the path.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2017, 01:19:40 pm »
One may have to not over-complicate things with difficult English terminology used in extremely complex and unusual ways.

Buddhism is extremely old, and the people and their language and ideas may not have been as complex as people are making them out to be right now or even among earlier intellectuals.

If one tries to understand the words in a very primitive way in an Ancient Indic context, it may give one a more authentic sense of how it might have been understood by the people of the period in their culture and language which was also inclusive of their cosmological notions and subtle and overt ideas regarding reality or the natural world or experience which was not likely the same as someone born a few years ago in modern Australia or modern North America. Ideas which are considered strange now were common back then, things rejected now were taken as granted and obviously true back then.

This is why beginners, like your good self, need a real (face to face) teacher to guide you along the path.

I'm chicken, I don't want to be hit, which is why ghosts make for less frightening teachers.

Offline ground

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2017, 09:47:33 pm »
A buddhism that isn't compatible with western thought isn't worth anything. Really, if you are born in the west, have been educated in the west and are living in the west it would be a great error to seek a buddhism that is incompatible with western thought.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2017, 10:47:19 pm »
A buddhism that isn't compatible with western thought isn't worth anything. Really, if you are born in the west, have been educated in the west and are living in the west it would be a great error to seek a buddhism that is incompatible with western thought.


So the thoughts are Grounds... well then, stick with them. Of course thinking is a matter of nissaya or paramis if you wish, and beings are not easy able to go beyound that what they grasp.

Its not a matter of birth, east or west that one is capable to grasp the fruits. Look, it's like mango picking. Ohh... you don't know mango trees and picing them. Try to imagine or maybe search for a youtube clip.

Quote
Picking Mangoes

If a mango is five meters off the ground and we want it, we can't use a ten-meter picking pole to pick it, because it's too long. We can't use a two-meter picking pole either, because it's too short.

Don't go thinking that a person with a PhD. has an easy time practicing the Dhamma because he knows so much. Don't go thinking that way. Sometimes people with a PhD. are too long.



Don't think that eastern have an easy today... they also think their though are their's as well having TV and internet.
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2017, 04:38:19 am »
One may have to not over-complicate things with difficult English terminology used in extremely complex and unusual ways.

Buddhism is extremely old, and the people and their language and ideas may not have been as complex as people are making them out to be right now or even among earlier intellectuals.

If one tries to understand the words in a very primitive way in an Ancient Indic context, it may give one a more authentic sense of how it might have been understood by the people of the period in their culture and language which was also inclusive of their cosmological notions and subtle and overt ideas regarding reality or the natural world or experience which was not likely the same as someone born a few years ago in modern Australia or modern North America. Ideas which are considered strange now were common back then, things rejected now were taken as granted and obviously true back then.

This is why beginners, like your good self, need a real (face to face) teacher to guide you along the path.

I'm chicken, I don't want to be hit, which is why ghosts make for less frightening teachers.

The Artis Magistra,

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What happened to -- one not over-complicating things with difficult English terminology used in extremely complex and unusual ways?

Did you come here to learn?
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2017, 11:05:56 am »
One may have to not over-complicate things with difficult English terminology used in extremely complex and unusual ways.

Buddhism is extremely old, and the people and their language and ideas may not have been as complex as people are making them out to be right now or even among earlier intellectuals.

If one tries to understand the words in a very primitive way in an Ancient Indic context, it may give one a more authentic sense of how it might have been understood by the people of the period in their culture and language which was also inclusive of their cosmological notions and subtle and overt ideas regarding reality or the natural world or experience which was not likely the same as someone born a few years ago in modern Australia or modern North America. Ideas which are considered strange now were common back then, things rejected now were taken as granted and obviously true back then.

This is why beginners, like your good self, need a real (face to face) teacher to guide you along the path.

I'm chicken, I don't want to be hit, which is why ghosts make for less frightening teachers.

The Artis Magistra,

I have no idea what you are talking about.

What happened to -- one not over-complicating things with difficult English terminology used in extremely complex and unusual ways?

Did you come here to learn?

I said I am chicken (I am scared), I do not want to be hit (I don't want some guy admonishing me), which is why ghosts (which is why people no longer alive but known through writing) make for less frightening (threatening or scary, anxiety inducing) teachers (normal human beings who are opinionated).

That is what I meant. Sorry for any confusion. I asked people to write clearly when teaching the Dharma, not boggling it with difficult terminology. My fear of putting myself under the torture of someone from the jungle telling me what my ancestors invented and developed is wrong and bad is not a roller-coaster I am interested in (not an anxiety inducing experience that I am interested in).

I have little real respect for illiterates steeped in traditions from jungles or Tibet, Western Modernist Buddhists, Militant Atheists, or practically anyone. That means the loss is mine, because I miss out on all that great admonishment and spittle (from furious fundamentalist corrections) on my face from people who do little else than beg others and support their little groups and cult organizations.

I wouldn't take a Christian teacher admonishing me either, a Jew, a Hindu, or a Muslim or Sikh. Why? Maybe because I am afraid, willfully ignorant, disdainful, and arrogant, deeming myself superior in knowledge and wisdom to them and anyone, and having different interests.

What will my consequences be for such? That I will meet my end without ever knowing or practicing some narrow brand of jungle Buddhism? I won't be reborn and ai won't be judged, right? So who cares? In the end, supposedly, they get the same as me. They cease to exist and I cease to exist, right? They get to die more smug than me? Is that the advantage?

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2017, 01:00:07 am »

The Artis Magistra

It seems to me there is one set of rules for The Artis Magistra, and another set for other members.

I said I am chicken (I am scared), I do not want to be hit (I don't want some guy admonishing me), which is why ghosts (which is why people no longer alive but known through writing) make for less frightening (threatening or scary, anxiety inducing) teachers (normal human beings who are opinionated).

So, why is it ok for you to be admonishing other members?

That is what I meant. Sorry for any confusion. I asked people to write clearly when teaching the Dharma, not boggling it with difficult terminology. My fear of putting myself under the torture of someone from the jungle telling me what my ancestors invented and developed is wrong and bad is not a roller-coaster I am interested in (not an anxiety inducing experience that I am interested in).

So why not write clearly in all your communication.  It would make it a lot easier for people to understand what you are trying to say?

I have little real respect for illiterates steeped in traditions from jungles or Tibet, Western Modernist Buddhists, Militant Atheists, or practically anyone. That means the loss is mine, because I miss out on all that great admonishment and spittle (from furious fundamentalist corrections) on my face from people who do little else than beg others and support their little groups and cult organizations.

I wouldn't take a Christian teacher admonishing me either, a Jew, a Hindu, or a Muslim or Sikh. Why? Maybe because I am afraid, willfully ignorant, disdainful, and arrogant, deeming myself superior in knowledge and wisdom to them and anyone, and having different interests.

What will my consequences be for such? That I will meet my end without ever knowing or practicing some narrow brand of jungle Buddhism? I won't be reborn and ai won't be judged, right? So who cares? In the end, supposedly, they get the same as me. They cease to exist and I cease to exist, right? They get to die more smug than me? Is that the advantage?

You seem to contradict yourself a lot, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Please write clearly, as you have suggested to others.

Thanks

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2017, 02:41:19 am »

The Artis Magistra

It seems to me there is one set of rules for The Artis Magistra, and another set for other members.

I said I am chicken (I am scared), I do not want to be hit (I don't want some guy admonishing me), which is why ghosts (which is why people no longer alive but known through writing) make for less frightening (threatening or scary, anxiety inducing) teachers (normal human beings who are opinionated).

So, why is it ok for you to be admonishing other members?

That is what I meant. Sorry for any confusion. I asked people to write clearly when teaching the Dharma, not boggling it with difficult terminology. My fear of putting myself under the torture of someone from the jungle telling me what my ancestors invented and developed is wrong and bad is not a roller-coaster I am interested in (not an anxiety inducing experience that I am interested in).

So why not write clearly in all your communication.  It would make it a lot easier for people to understand what you are trying to say?

I have little real respect for illiterates steeped in traditions from jungles or Tibet, Western Modernist Buddhists, Militant Atheists, or practically anyone. That means the loss is mine, because I miss out on all that great admonishment and spittle (from furious fundamentalist corrections) on my face from people who do little else than beg others and support their little groups and cult organizations.

I wouldn't take a Christian teacher admonishing me either, a Jew, a Hindu, or a Muslim or Sikh. Why? Maybe because I am afraid, willfully ignorant, disdainful, and arrogant, deeming myself superior in knowledge and wisdom to them and anyone, and having different interests.

What will my consequences be for such? That I will meet my end without ever knowing or practicing some narrow brand of jungle Buddhism? I won't be reborn and ai won't be judged, right? So who cares? In the end, supposedly, they get the same as me. They cease to exist and I cease to exist, right? They get to die more smug than me? Is that the advantage?

You seem to contradict yourself a lot, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Please write clearly, as you have suggested to others.

Thanks

Francis, I will try harder, sorry that you have difficulty understanding what I am saying. Are you trying to be difficult and cause me some trouble and distress? What admonishment? Suggesting to people that it might not be the best to be extremely rude to people in the way that VisuddhiRaptor seems to be? Others have mentioned that about VisuddhiRaptor as well, the reason is that VisudhiRaptor seems to be rude to people. I said I am not interested in taking on a teacher to admonish me, that is different than you for example teaching me as you do or admonishing me for example on the forum, I was referring to going and meeting with a Theravada monk to hear them out, I'm literally afraid of such people, I would never even want such to see my face, I have an actual phobia.

If a Buddhist came up to me and said things about their religion, I might flee, as I would flee from monks in robes, they frighten me. This may be because I am some sort of demonic entity or something, or am otherwise a very cowardly person. If they asked me if I was a Buddhist, I'd deny it, just like I would deny it to a Muslim if they asked if I was a Muslim. I have a great deal of knowledge regarding each religion, and can appear in any of those disguises from the safety of my own home behind my computer rather anonymously, but when it comes to facing people who might admonish or correct me, I'd rather they be poisoned and killed than hear what they have to say.

As you can see, I'm a very honest person. I'd like to engage with you and talk to you. I'd even like to learn from you. What I'd be learning from you is your version of Buddhism, and what I'd do with this information is figure out the "secret language" of what to say and not to say in certain environments, but my interest is not in supporting these sects and cults, nor in generating another sect or cult, but instead to minimize their hold and influence over people and to make people bolder in fighting and resisting their domination over what people are allowed to say and think regarding certain religions.

So "meeting with a teacher" or "spending years learning" is not of my particular interest, nor fits with my agenda for "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" which basically introduces or opens up mystic religion to all sorts of people despite their interests or preferences.

Everything you say to me goes towards this end. I'm far too cowardly to personally show my face to any teacher or join any cult, sect, or organization, such things really freak me out, and I want a peaceful life devoid of cultists bothering me with their structures and strictures.

I have no respect for "teachers" really, nor do I believe people living in caves "hold the True Dharma". Furthermore, I care little for "who the Buddha was" as I do not worship that man or any man, nor do I know if he existed or not, for me such is only a tool, like Jesus, Muhammed, Krishna, or anyone else, who can be used in order to introduce certain mystic concepts which emerged in Buddhist schools as well as other places in the world.

How much more clear can I be? I am a Buddhist, but not what you may consider a "real Buddhist", since you maybe don't believe in a Mystic sort religion or Buddhism. I am very devout in my religion, it is not a game to me. I do not believe in the "disengaging" mentality.

Furthermore, you are correct, I apply different rules to myself than to other people, I want a world where I can do whatever I please and you should all assist me in doing whatever I wish, but if you won't, then I'll simply take what I can from our interaction of good, and eschew what I consider unhelpful. If you are troublesome, I'll use dialogue to make an example of you and showcase your behavior as unsavory, or use you to make me appear a martyr in the eyes of people, or any number of tactics.

What you're dealing with here is a person who will use all sorts of tactics towards helping people who seek me out or listen to these words to learn a different way of thinking and way of life.

Thus, I understand I may be a threat to any radical sensibilities in yourself, but what benefit is it to you if people do anything? Why not simply let me "have my way" and even if I'm "lying" to people (and I'm not, in my understanding), just let those who I am lying to and will believe me, fall for it.

You have no reward, you have no future, you have no savior, you have nothing, and your destiny is to die and cease to exist forever, is it not? So what are you concerned about? Let me "have my way" and leave me unobstructed, you gain nothing, I am the one who is delusional and believes in "gain", you have nothing at all to gain, you only lose and waste your precious limited life by these activities, you do not believe in rewards or punishments, so don't worry about me or who I take with me or convince of anything or delude with my Maya.

Or have I misunderstood something? You do have some reason to try to correct me? Then please teach the Dharma in response to the things I say, then we can all benefit perhaps, even from my folly generating your wise responses.

Anyway though, we can have a friendly interaction too. It seems quite clear you dislike me, you dislike my style, you dislike my agenda, and you may feel it is important to promote your particular brand of Buddhism.

Your particular brand of Buddhism is in my opinion, not particularly or necessarily beneficial to anyone really, nor is it fun, but overall boring and very possibly also misinterpreted by you and your teachers, and untrue, but nonetheless, I'd be happy for you to share it so that I can learn what your people are sensitive about for when I might interact with them in order to better manipulate them and seduce them towards my agenda and my particular sort of Buddhism.

Please understand, our people have been doing this since ages past as well, and your people in the forests won't in the end succeed in anything probably, since each generation of them ceases to exist, and their goals appear also to be "worthless" necessarily. Luckily, there is no importance related to you "winning" or "defaming" me in any sense, you gain nothing. Like I said before, I am the fool who believes in "gain" and "winning", so show that you're a strong person who holds to what it appears you are suggesting, and allow me to "win", and your task (however pointless it is, worthless, unnecessary, and whatever else) is simply to speak the "True Dharma" and speak honestly to me like I have spoken honestly to you. That sounds fair. Of course I don't believe in fairness though really, I believe I should be given everything good of course and all assistance and help, you should be given what you want, which is to Cease to Exist and thus never Suffer? So why shouldn't we both get what we want immediately? What is impeding you? I'm certainly not trying to.

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 01:26:28 am »
Francis, I will try harder, sorry that you have difficulty understanding what I am saying. Are you trying to be difficult and cause me some trouble and distress? What admonishment? Suggesting to people that it might not be the best to be extremely rude to people in the way that VisuddhiRaptor seems to be? Others have mentioned that about VisuddhiRaptor as well, the reason is that VisudhiRaptor seems to be rude to people. I said I am not interested in taking on ato admonish me, that is different than you for example teaching me as you do or admonishing me for example on the forum, I was referring to going and meeting with a Theravada monk to hear them out, I'm literally afraid of such people, I would never even want such to see my face, I have an actual phobia.

The Artis Magistra,

I think you are causing a lot of people distress with your erroneous fabrications about what you consider to be Buddhism.

Real Buddhists don’t bully other or gossip. Instead, they practice Right Speech. You should try it sometime.

I can see why you don’t want a teacher because they might shatter the illusion of what you call Buddhim.

If a Buddhist came up to me and said things about their religion, I might flee, as I would flee from monks in robes, they frighten me. This may be because I am some …………

So "meeting with a teacher" or "spending years learning" is not of my particular interest, nor fits with my agenda for "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" which basically introduces or opens up mystic religion to all sorts of people despite their interests or preferences.

Ok, this is the crux of the matter. You want to teach some mystical "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma. Ok no problem, find another forum and preach away. Just don’t pretend what you are teaching it is somehow affiliated with Budhism, because it is not!

Everything you say to me goes towards this end. I'm far too cowardly to personally show my face to any teacher or join any cult, sect, or organization, such things really freak me out, and I want a peaceful life devoid of cultists bothering me with their structures and strictures.

I have no respect for "teachers" really, nor do I believe people living in caves "hold the True Dharma". Furthermore, I care little for "who the Buddha was" as I do not worship that man or any man, nor do I know if he existed or not, for me such is only a tool, like Jesus, Muhammed, Krishna, or anyone else, who can be used in order to introduce certain mystic concepts which emerged in Buddhist schools as well as other places in the world.

How much more clear can I be? I am a Buddhist, but not what you may consider a "real Buddhist", since you maybe don't believe in a Mystic sort religion or Buddhism. I am very devout in my religion, it is not a game to me. I do not believe in the "disengaging" mentality.

Furthermore, you are correct, I apply different rules to myself than to other people, I want a world where I can do whatever I please and you should all assist me in doing whatever I wish, but if you won't, then I'll simply take what I can from our interaction of good, and eschew what I consider unhelpful. If you are troublesome, I'll use dialogue to make an example of you and showcase your behavior as unsavory, or use you to make me appear a martyr in the eyes of people, or any number of tactics

What you're dealing with here is a person who will use all sorts of tactics towards helping people who seek me out or listen to these words to learn a different way of thinking and way of life.

Thus, I understand I may be a threat to any radical sensibilities in yourself, but what benefit is it to you if people do anything? Why not simply let me "have my way" and even if I'm "lying" to people (and I'm not, in my understanding), just let those who I am lying to and will believe me, fall for

You have no reward, you have no future, you have no savior, you have nothing, and your destiny is to die and cease to exist forever, is it not? So what are you concerned about? Let me "have my way" and leave me unobstructed, you gain nothing, I am the one who is delusional and believes in "gain", you have nothing at all to gain, you only lose and waste your precious limited life by these activities, you do not believe in rewards or punishments, so don't worry about me or who I take with me or convince of anything or delude with my Maya.

Or have I misunderstood something? You do have some reason to try to correct me? Then please teach the Dharma in response to the things I say, then we can all benefit perhaps, even from my folly generating your wise responses.

Anyway though, we can have a friendly interaction too. It seems quite clear you dislike me, you dislike my style, you dislike my agenda, and you may feel it is important to promote your particular brand of Buddhism.

Your particular brand of Buddhism is in my opinion, not particularly or necessarily beneficial to anyone really, nor is it fun, but overall boring and very possibly also misinterpreted by you and your teachers, and untrue, but nonetheless, I'd be happy for you to share it so that I can learn what your people are sensitive about for when I might interact with them in order to better manipulate them and seduce them towards my agenda and my particular sort of Buddhism.

Please understand, our people have been doing this since ages past as well, and your people in the forests won't in the end succeed in anything probably, since each generation of them ceases to exist, and their goals appear also to be "worthless" necessarily. Luckily, there is no importance related to you "winning" or "defaming" me in any sense, you gain nothing. Like I said before, I am the fool who believes in "gain" and "winning", so show that you're a strong person who holds to what it appears you are suggesting, and allow me to "win", and your task (however pointless it is, worthless, unnecessary, and whatever else) is simply to speak the "True Dharma" and speak honestly to me like I have spoken honestly to you. That sounds fair. Of course I don't believe in fairness though really, I believe I should be given everything good of course and all assistance and help, you should be given what you want, which is to Cease to Exist and thus never Suffer? So why shouldn't we both get what we want immediately? What is impeding you? I'm certainly not trying to.

This is a Buddhist forum. If you want to proselytize then you need to find a differen platform, because what you preach is not Buddhism, and it would be immoral to pretend it is. 
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 01:59:20 am »
Francis, I will try harder, sorry that you have difficulty understanding what I am saying. Are you trying to be difficult and cause me some trouble and distress? What admonishment? Suggesting to people that it might not be the best to be extremely rude to people in the way that VisuddhiRaptor seems to be? Others have mentioned that about VisuddhiRaptor as well, the reason is that VisudhiRaptor seems to be rude to people. I said I am not interested in taking on ato admonish me, that is different than you for example teaching me as you do or admonishing me for example on the forum, I was referring to going and meeting with a Theravada monk to hear them out, I'm literally afraid of such people, I would never even want such to see my face, I have an actual phobia.

The Artis Magistra,

I think you are causing a lot of people distress with your erroneous fabrications about what you consider to be Buddhism.

Real Buddhists don’t bully other or gossip. Instead, they practice Right Speech. You should try it sometime.

I can see why you don’t want a teacher because they might shatter the illusion of what you call Buddhim.

If a Buddhist came up to me and said things about their religion, I might flee, as I would flee from monks in robes, they frighten me. This may be because I am some …………

So "meeting with a teacher" or "spending years learning" is not of my particular interest, nor fits with my agenda for "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" which basically introduces or opens up mystic religion to all sorts of people despite their interests or preferences.

Ok, this is the crux of the matter. You want to teach some mystical "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma. Ok no problem, find another forum and preach away. Just don’t pretend what you are teaching it is somehow affiliated with Budhism, because it is not!

Everything you say to me goes towards this end. I'm far too cowardly to personally show my face to any teacher or join any cult, sect, or organization, such things really freak me out, and I want a peaceful life devoid of cultists bothering me with their structures and strictures.

I have no respect for "teachers" really, nor do I believe people living in caves "hold the True Dharma". Furthermore, I care little for "who the Buddha was" as I do not worship that man or any man, nor do I know if he existed or not, for me such is only a tool, like Jesus, Muhammed, Krishna, or anyone else, who can be used in order to introduce certain mystic concepts which emerged in Buddhist schools as well as other places in the world.

How much more clear can I be? I am a Buddhist, but not what you may consider a "real Buddhist", since you maybe don't believe in a Mystic sort religion or Buddhism. I am very devout in my religion, it is not a game to me. I do not believe in the "disengaging" mentality.

Furthermore, you are correct, I apply different rules to myself than to other people, I want a world where I can do whatever I please and you should all assist me in doing whatever I wish, but if you won't, then I'll simply take what I can from our interaction of good, and eschew what I consider unhelpful. If you are troublesome, I'll use dialogue to make an example of you and showcase your behavior as unsavory, or use you to make me appear a martyr in the eyes of people, or any number of tactics

What you're dealing with here is a person who will use all sorts of tactics towards helping people who seek me out or listen to these words to learn a different way of thinking and way of life.

Thus, I understand I may be a threat to any radical sensibilities in yourself, but what benefit is it to you if people do anything? Why not simply let me "have my way" and even if I'm "lying" to people (and I'm not, in my understanding), just let those who I am lying to and will believe me, fall for

You have no reward, you have no future, you have no savior, you have nothing, and your destiny is to die and cease to exist forever, is it not? So what are you concerned about? Let me "have my way" and leave me unobstructed, you gain nothing, I am the one who is delusional and believes in "gain", you have nothing at all to gain, you only lose and waste your precious limited life by these activities, you do not believe in rewards or punishments, so don't worry about me or who I take with me or convince of anything or delude with my Maya.

Or have I misunderstood something? You do have some reason to try to correct me? Then please teach the Dharma in response to the things I say, then we can all benefit perhaps, even from my folly generating your wise responses.

Anyway though, we can have a friendly interaction too. It seems quite clear you dislike me, you dislike my style, you dislike my agenda, and you may feel it is important to promote your particular brand of Buddhism.

Your particular brand of Buddhism is in my opinion, not particularly or necessarily beneficial to anyone really, nor is it fun, but overall boring and very possibly also misinterpreted by you and your teachers, and untrue, but nonetheless, I'd be happy for you to share it so that I can learn what your people are sensitive about for when I might interact with them in order to better manipulate them and seduce them towards my agenda and my particular sort of Buddhism.

Please understand, our people have been doing this since ages past as well, and your people in the forests won't in the end succeed in anything probably, since each generation of them ceases to exist, and their goals appear also to be "worthless" necessarily. Luckily, there is no importance related to you "winning" or "defaming" me in any sense, you gain nothing. Like I said before, I am the fool who believes in "gain" and "winning", so show that you're a strong person who holds to what it appears you are suggesting, and allow me to "win", and your task (however pointless it is, worthless, unnecessary, and whatever else) is simply to speak the "True Dharma" and speak honestly to me like I have spoken honestly to you. That sounds fair. Of course I don't believe in fairness though really, I believe I should be given everything good of course and all assistance and help, you should be given what you want, which is to Cease to Exist and thus never Suffer? So why shouldn't we both get what we want immediately? What is impeding you? I'm certainly not trying to.

This is a Buddhist forum. If you want to proselytize then you need to find a differen platform, because what you preach is not Buddhism, and it would be immoral to pretend it is.

Francis. What I'm talking about is or has been called Buddhism historically for more generations than this new Atheistic Buddhism which has been preached only by a select group and minority if at all in only recent history. You don't have the precedent, I do. Furthermore, if you people can preach your a-historical rubbish, I should be allowed to inform people of the opinion that this a-historical rubbish which you suggest is "Always the Real Buddhism" has not "Always" been considered Buddhism, no, but my "Mystical Crap" has been the majority of what has been called and considered Buddhism and Buddhist historically.

Yes. My stuff. Not your stuff, francis.

Your stuff is made Western re-invention of Buddhism and colonial orientalist destruction of historical Buddhism. Yes, even if your jungle buddies are affirming you and giving you back rubs and even if they are faithless themselves, that doesn't mean some 2500 years of Buddhist history is out the window just because francis doesn't like to read everything or look into it, or likes to imagine people in the past were not believing in what amounts to "mere superstitions" in your interpretation.

I'm the only one making a solid and repeated defense for real history. You and VisuddhiRaptor and other Western Militant Atheist fanatics and colonizers, who pretend to love Buddhism, but really just convert Buddhism to make it into Atheist Nihilism.

The ideas proposed by VisuddhiRaptor, his agenda, ultimately makes no sense, yours probably doesn't make sense either.

As a whackjob, let me tell you, at the very least, your internal logic should make some good sense, just as a human courtesy.

Mine does. This "Universal Dharma" crap I'm talking about, is a test to see who knows historic Buddhism, I mean the stuff that was called Buddhist by most people for the majority of those 2500 years or so of Buddhist history in India, China, Japan, and elsewhere.

What I'm seeing is that this website, and other websites, are full of "white folk" who don't know Buddhism from a paper bag, they don't know or even believe in any of the historical stuff, they would be utterly alien to the ancient Buddhists and Buddhist sympathizers in history, I would not be alien to them, they would know what the heck I'm talking about.

They would worship with me even, their religion and my religion are the same religion, we all believed in the Power, and not that "there is no justice really, everyone just dies forever, there is no watching force, there is no power" etc.

So I would've gotten along fine with the 2500 years of "frauds", I would've even been a dominant force back then, ancestrally, because of my background and my energy and enthusiasm for the teachings. Would've been "Big in Japan".

You on the other hand, might have gotten yourself killed for real heresy, along with VisuddhiRaptor. The tables have turned though, and now people like you are the dominant voice online, completely taking a nice hot piss over all of Buddhist history, and the urea or uric acid or whatever is bleaching it all of its original cumin color.

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2017, 03:01:11 am »
Francis. What I'm talking about is or has been called Buddhism historically for more generations than this new Atheistic Buddhism which has been preached only by a select group and minority if at all in only recent history. You don't have the precedent, I do. Furthermore, if you people can preach your a-historical rubbish, I should be allowed to inform people of the opinion that this a-historical rubbish which you suggest is "Always the Real Buddhism" has not "Always" been considered Buddhism, no, but my "Mystical Crap" has been the majority of what has been called and considered Buddhism and Buddhist historically.

The Artis Magistra,

No, because you have already stated your agenda is for a mystic religion called "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma", which has nothing to do with Buddhism. Sure, inform people of your "Mystical Crap", but on another platform, a non Buddhist one.

I see you are playing the precedent card, again. From what you have posted, I can only imagine you learnt Buddhism by osmosis, because you didn’t learn from a teacher, as you have stated numerous times. Remember, ego is not a good teacher, and you are not likely to see through the illusion of ego by protecting your ego.

Yes. My stuff. Not your stuff, francis.

Your stuff is made Western re-invention of Buddhism and colonial orientalist destruction of historical Buddhism. Yes, even if your jungle buddies are affirming you and giving you back rubs and even if they are faithless themselves, that doesn't mean some 2500 years of Buddhist history is out the window just because francis doesn't like to read everything or look into it, or likes to imagine people in the past were not believing in what amounts to "mere superstitions" in your interpretation.

Yet, we have the Pali Canon, records of the Buddha’s sermons to read and study.

I'm the only one making a solid and repeated defense for real history. You and VisuddhiRaptor and other Western Militant Atheist fanatics and colonizers, who pretend to love Buddhism, but really just convert Buddhism to make it into Atheist Nihilism.

Atheist nihilism, because the Buddha didn’t teach reincarnation? 

The ideas proposed by VisuddhiRaptor, his agenda, ultimately makes no sense, yours probably doesn't make sense either.

As a whackjob, let me tell you, at the very least, your internal logic should make some good sense, just as a human courtesy.

Mine does. This "Universal Dharma" crap I'm talking about, is a test to see who knows historic Buddhism, I mean the stuff that was called Buddhist by most people for the majority of those 2500 years or so of Buddhist history in India, China, Japan, and elsewhere

What I'm seeing is that this website, and other websites, are full of "white folk" who don't know Buddhism from a paper bag, they don't know or even believe in any of the historical stuff, they would be utterly alien to the ancient Buddhists and Buddhist sympathizers in history, I would not be alien to them, they would know what the heck I'm talking about.

They would worship with me even, their religion and my religion are the same religion, we all believed in the Power, and not that "there is no justice really, everyone just dies forever, there is no watching force, there is no power" etc.

So I would've gotten along fine with the 2500 years of "frauds", I would've even been a dominant force back then, ancestrally, because of my background and my energy and enthusiasm for the teachings. Would've been "Big in Japan"..

So far, I don’t think you have shown a source of the historical stuff you talk about, and from what you have said so far, I think you are confusing Buddhism with other Indian belief systems. It’s like you don’t know the distinctions between Buddhism (a sramanic tradition) and Brahmanism.

You on the other hand, might have gotten yourself killed for real heresy, along with VisuddhiRaptor. The tables have turned though, and now people like you are the dominant voice online, completely taking a nice hot piss over all of Buddhist history, and the urea or uric acid or whatever is bleaching it all of its original cumin color.

I think you missed the Buddha’s teachings on non-violence.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:40:53 am by francis »
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Pixie

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2017, 03:11:02 am »
 ......
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 03:18:04 am by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2017, 08:14:46 am »
Francis. What I'm talking about is or has been called Buddhism historically for more generations than this new Atheistic Buddhism which has been preached only by a select group and minority if at all in only recent history. You don't have the precedent, I do. Furthermore, if you people can preach your a-historical rubbish, I should be allowed to inform people of the opinion that this a-historical rubbish which you suggest is "Always the Real Buddhism" has not "Always" been considered Buddhism, no, but my "Mystical Crap" has been the majority of what has been called and considered Buddhism and Buddhist historically.

The Artis Magistra,

No, because you have already stated your agenda is for a mystic religion called "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma", which has nothing to do with Buddhism. Sure, inform people of your "Mystical Crap", but on another platform, a non Buddhist one.

I see you are playing the precedent card, again. From what you have posted, I can only imagine you learnt Buddhism by osmosis, because you didn’t learn from a teacher, as you have stated numerous times. Remember, ego is not a good teacher, and you are not likely to see through the illusion of ego by protecting your ego.

Yes. My stuff. Not your stuff, francis.

Your stuff is made Western re-invention of Buddhism and colonial orientalist destruction of historical Buddhism. Yes, even if your jungle buddies are affirming you and giving you back rubs and even if they are faithless themselves, that doesn't mean some 2500 years of Buddhist history is out the window just because francis doesn't like to read everything or look into it, or likes to imagine people in the past were not believing in what amounts to "mere superstitions" in your interpretation.

Yet, we have the Pali Canon, records of the Buddha’s sermons to read and study.

I'm the only one making a solid and repeated defense for real history. You and VisuddhiRaptor and other Western Militant Atheist fanatics and colonizers, who pretend to love Buddhism, but really just convert Buddhism to make it into Atheist Nihilism.

Atheist nihilism, because the Buddha didn’t teach reincarnation? 

The ideas proposed by VisuddhiRaptor, his agenda, ultimately makes no sense, yours probably doesn't make sense either.

As a whackjob, let me tell you, at the very least, your internal logic should make some good sense, just as a human courtesy.

Mine does. This "Universal Dharma" crap I'm talking about, is a test to see who knows historic Buddhism, I mean the stuff that was called Buddhist by most people for the majority of those 2500 years or so of Buddhist history in India, China, Japan, and elsewhere

What I'm seeing is that this website, and other websites, are full of "white folk" who don't know Buddhism from a paper bag, they don't know or even believe in any of the historical stuff, they would be utterly alien to the ancient Buddhists and Buddhist sympathizers in history, I would not be alien to them, they would know what the heck I'm talking about.

They would worship with me even, their religion and my religion are the same religion, we all believed in the Power, and not that "there is no justice really, everyone just dies forever, there is no watching force, there is no power" etc.

So I would've gotten along fine with the 2500 years of "frauds", I would've even been a dominant force back then, ancestrally, because of my background and my energy and enthusiasm for the teachings. Would've been "Big in Japan"..

So far, I don’t think you have shown a source of the historical stuff you talk about, and from what you have said so far, I think you are confusing Buddhism with other Indian belief systems. It’s like you don’t know the distinctions between Buddhism (a sramanic tradition) and Brahmanism.

You on the other hand, might have gotten yourself killed for real heresy, along with VisuddhiRaptor. The tables have turned though, and now people like you are the dominant voice online, completely taking a nice hot piss over all of Buddhist history, and the urea or uric acid or whatever is bleaching it all of its original cumin color.

I think you missed the Buddha’s teachings on non-violence.

Hi francis. What I refer to as "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is inclusive of the things called by academics "Buddhism" for the last 2500 years or so. It might sound more like Indian religion than Western Atheism does, because it is more related to Indian cosmology than to modern Western Atheistic Science.

You people are "violent" in your own ways, because you disparage all those develops that have traditionally understood to be Buddhist. Yes, they include the Suttas attributed to Buddha. Weirdly, from those, generations of people had the ideas of re-birth meaning something other than waking up one day and proclaiming "I'm re-born!". People who had these Suttas, spoke of things like Avalokitesvara, Amitabha, Vairocana, whatever else. People who had these Suttas had all sorts of ideas for some 2500 years that weren't sounding like your Western Atheism. So please stop trying to "run me off" the website. The moderators are surely on your side anyway, as are most of these people on the internet these days it seems. You don't have the historical precedent though.

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2017, 04:14:19 pm »
Hi francis. What I refer to as "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is inclusive of the things called by academics "Buddhism" for the last 2500 years or so. It might sound more like Indian religion than Western Atheism does, because it is more related to Indian cosmology than to modern Western Atheistic Science.

You people are "violent" in your own ways, because you disparage all those develops that have traditionally understood to be Buddhist. Yes, they include the Suttas attributed to Buddha. Weirdly, from those, generations of people had the ideas of re-birth meaning something other than waking up one day and proclaiming "I'm re-born!". People who had these Suttas, spoke of things like Avalokitesvara, Amitabha, Vairocana, whatever else. People who had these Suttas had all sorts of ideas for some 2500 years that weren't sounding like your Western Atheism. So please stop trying to "run me off" the website. The moderators are surely on your side anyway, as are most of these people on the internet these days it seems. You don't have the historical precedent though.

The Artis Magistra,

"Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. They appear to be total fabricated by you. As you alluded to, it’s really Indian cosmology dressed up as Buddhism, and for the record -- the Buddha is not the ninth avatar of Vishnu.

The Five Dhyani Buddha’s and their bodhisattvas like Avalokitesvara were constructed by the Mahayana to fill the vacuum created following the Buddha’s parinirvana.   

So far, you are yet to produce any of the sutta’s you refer to for authority.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 12:02:51 am »
Hi francis. What I refer to as "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is inclusive of the things called by academics "Buddhism" for the last 2500 years or so. It might sound more like Indian religion than Western Atheism does, because it is more related to Indian cosmology than to modern Western Atheistic Science.

You people are "violent" in your own ways, because you disparage all those develops that have traditionally understood to be Buddhist. Yes, they include the Suttas attributed to Buddha. Weirdly, from those, generations of people had the ideas of re-birth meaning something other than waking up one day and proclaiming "I'm re-born!". People who had these Suttas, spoke of things like Avalokitesvara, Amitabha, Vairocana, whatever else. People who had these Suttas had all sorts of ideas for some 2500 years that weren't sounding like your Western Atheism. So please stop trying to "run me off" the website. The moderators are surely on your side anyway, as are most of these people on the internet these days it seems. You don't have the historical precedent though.

The Artis Magistra,

"Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. They appear to be total fabricated by you. As you alluded to, it’s really Indian cosmology dressed up as Buddhism, and for the record -- the Buddha is not the ninth avatar of Vishnu.

The Five Dhyani Buddha’s and their bodhisattvas like Avalokitesvara were constructed by the Mahayana to fill the vacuum created following the Buddha’s parinirvana.   

So far, you are yet to produce any of the sutta’s you refer to for authority.

All I've been saying generally is that for the majority of Buddhist history, there appear to have been ideas circulating among people called or considered Buddhists which seem to differ from the things you and VisuddhiRaptor, Rahul, and others seem to believe in.

 


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