Author Topic: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!  (Read 494 times)

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 01:12:34 am »
Hi francis. What I refer to as "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is inclusive of the things called by academics "Buddhism" for the last 2500 years or so. It might sound more like Indian religion than Western Atheism does, because it is more related to Indian cosmology than to modern Western Atheistic Science.

You people are "violent" in your own ways, because you disparage all those develops that have traditionally understood to be Buddhist. Yes, they include the Suttas attributed to Buddha. Weirdly, from those, generations of people had the ideas of re-birth meaning something other than waking up one day and proclaiming "I'm re-born!". People who had these Suttas, spoke of things like Avalokitesvara, Amitabha, Vairocana, whatever else. People who had these Suttas had all sorts of ideas for some 2500 years that weren't sounding like your Western Atheism. So please stop trying to "run me off" the website. The moderators are surely on your side anyway, as are most of these people on the internet these days it seems. You don't have the historical precedent though.

The Artis Magistra,

"Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. They appear to be total fabricated by you. As you alluded to, it’s really Indian cosmology dressed up as Buddhism, and for the record -- the Buddha is not the ninth avatar of Vishnu.

The Five Dhyani Buddha’s and their bodhisattvas like Avalokitesvara were constructed by the Mahayana to fill the vacuum created following the Buddha’s parinirvana.   

So far, you are yet to produce any of the sutta’s you refer to for authority.

All I've been saying generally is that for the majority of Buddhist history, there appear to have been ideas circulating among people called or considered Buddhists which seem to differ from the things you and VisuddhiRaptor, Rahul, and others seem to believe in.

No, what I am saying is your ideas on "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma “differ from what is considered the majority of Buddhist history. Then when challenged, because you have not been able to back up your claims, you start abusing people.

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 01:43:26 am »
This is commonly mindlessly posted by the sheep at Dhamma Wheel.  :lmfao:  :teehee:

More arrogant twaddle from the Buddhist Borg.  It's not enough for you to insult members here who challenge your idiosyncratic dogma, now you have to insult the members of another forum.   Your ego is the size of a planet.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 02:16:05 pm »
Hi francis. What I refer to as "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is inclusive of the things called by academics "Buddhism" for the last 2500 years or so. It might sound more like Indian religion than Western Atheism does, because it is more related to Indian cosmology than to modern Western Atheistic Science.

You people are "violent" in your own ways, because you disparage all those develops that have traditionally understood to be Buddhist. Yes, they include the Suttas attributed to Buddha. Weirdly, from those, generations of people had the ideas of re-birth meaning something other than waking up one day and proclaiming "I'm re-born!". People who had these Suttas, spoke of things like Avalokitesvara, Amitabha, Vairocana, whatever else. People who had these Suttas had all sorts of ideas for some 2500 years that weren't sounding like your Western Atheism. So please stop trying to "run me off" the website. The moderators are surely on your side anyway, as are most of these people on the internet these days it seems. You don't have the historical precedent though.

The Artis Magistra,

"Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. They appear to be total fabricated by you. As you alluded to, it’s really Indian cosmology dressed up as Buddhism, and for the record -- the Buddha is not the ninth avatar of Vishnu.

The Five Dhyani Buddha’s and their bodhisattvas like Avalokitesvara were constructed by the Mahayana to fill the vacuum created following the Buddha’s parinirvana.   

So far, you are yet to produce any of the sutta’s you refer to for authority.

All I've been saying generally is that for the majority of Buddhist history, there appear to have been ideas circulating among people called or considered Buddhists which seem to differ from the things you and VisuddhiRaptor, Rahul, and others seem to believe in.

No, what I am saying is your ideas on "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma “differ from what is considered the majority of Buddhist history. Then when challenged, because you have not been able to back up your claims, you start abusing people.

I apologize for any abuse, I did not intend to abuse you by talking about what I understand as the well-known history of thought considered Buddhist and majority Buddhist.

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 03:59:17 pm »
I apologize for any abuse, I did not intend to abuse you by talking about what I understand as the well-known history of thought considered Buddhist and majority Buddhist.

The Artis Magistra,

Nice try there with your passive aggressive apology. How about reaching into the bag of “goodliness” you profess to possess, and practice what you preach for a change.  You quote the Five Dhyani Buddha’s, but don’t appear to know anything about them, or their history. I think it’s more than obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Buddhism.  As said previously, what you call "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. Get a real (face to face) teacher to instruct you in the difference.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 04:57:24 pm »
I apologize for any abuse, I did not intend to abuse you by talking about what I understand as the well-known history of thought considered Buddhist and majority Buddhist.

The Artis Magistra,

Nice try there with your passive aggressive apology. How about reaching into the bag of “goodliness” you profess to possess, and practice what you preach for a change.  You quote the Five Dhyani Buddha’s, but don’t appear to know anything about them, or their history. I think it’s more than obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Buddhism.  As said previously, what you call "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. Get a real (face to face) teacher to instruct you in the difference.

Francis, I don't know what your hostility towards me if for. I am not interested in finding someone to suppress or correct me. If I find someone to say to me "no, you are wrong, there is no Primordial Buddha God Power thing" I will simply feel bad. It does not change what I am saying, what was said before me,how that material is being used by me, and the reality or non-reality of such a thing as I am referring to. All it does, is have a potentially unpleasant encounter between me and some fellow who agrees instead with you. So why would I need that, especially considering that I have you to tell me the same thing as this teacher would tell me? This is a far more comfortable arrangement. You can keep harshly admonishing me and attempting to suppress what I say and my freedom to do as I please, arbitrarily since according to your philosophy it appears you have no advantage over me, we both end up in the exact same experience or non-experience regardless of what I do, the only difference being that I live a life of happy delusions with my Supreme Buddha and imaginary miraclesvand worship and adoration and praise, you live your faithless and honest "realistic" and unpleasant life, and end up getting exactly the same end result as me, which youband VisuddhiRaptor and Rahul and others like ground suggest is simply being dead and gone forever. In fact, I gain by doing whatever I please, the exact same end results or final state that your most respected teachers or historical figures get or got, and I can do it all by laughing and misleading people all the way! Isn't it wonderful francis? So instead of being jealous of how I can freely indulge myself and end up not being as restricted as you (and cranky), why not simply live up to your philosophy and indulge yourself? My philosophy or religion is restrictive though, because I do not believe that we are certainly guaranteed to end up in the same final state, but rather, that I will have to face the results of my conduct, as will you. This puts you at somewhat of an advantage though, since in your philosophy there is no sorting or judgment of good and bad deeds, you can simply be entirelyva rotten and unpleasant person and are immune to repercussions if you escape via death.

I am not interested in anyone admonishing me and telling me that I am delusional and there is no such thing as the Supreme Buddha Power which is actively responsible for all that we contemplate, experience, or decide to do/conduct.

I am fully aware that there is material that can be used to try to say that I am wrong, and ancient material that can be used to try to say that people appeared to believe as I do. Yes, there is much metal to make bullets from, and many stones which can be thrown. I skip doing that because the nature of my philosophy and agenda is such. Your doing so also makes even less sense though, since you and your type of people seem to espouse permanent death and no further experience so no fear or bad results or experience after this life. My actions have a purpose and a cause, even if it is based in delusion, it has an internal logic which makes sense. Your attempts to suppress make little sense though, it should not matter to you what anyone does or says or thinks or what they lie about since they receive the same as you in the end. You have nothing to fight for.

I do want you to continue though, since it gets me to write stuff and furthermore you can continually teach me in detail and using copy pasted quotes or references how exactly I am wrong.

Let me also provide you with more ammunition or encouragement.

If a man came along and said to me "I am Shakyamuni Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, here to teach you" and behind him were an army of monks "and this is my true Sangha" and he continues "I have heard from my top beloved monk, the one you call francis, that you have been saying that ignorant folk in the past have said that there is a Power which brings about experience, and there is no such Power and all things that you see are driven by nothing and don't even exist and no Power is generating experience, there is nothing experienced and nothing moving or existing or appearing to move and exist, and when you die there is no further experience which even now does not exist since there was and is no power generating experience and there is only Nothing now and forever after", I will say "Ok" backing off, escaping this man and his army, and saying then "phew, what a nutbag that was! There is experience and Nothing can not do anything, and so if there is anything appearing and changing there is Something generating it and making it appear to move and change, a Power, and thus that all this sorting and resolving of things has a a place and a cause, as it clearly appears now" and then, thinking of a name for it, I might think, "didn't that Atheistic senseless maniac who approached me earlier call himself Buddha? Haha, it would be funny to name the Power after such a one as claimed there was no cause to experience nor consequence to anything, alternatively, I could call the Power after the name of his chief monk, francis?"

If you are not amused by my story and are furthermore unable to grasp the truth of it, then again I am at an advantage, and you are at a loss, as I received the pleasure, you received nothing or the pain, and I did not even intend to deprive you or hurt you thereby, but according to you and your associates, and your supposed leader you imagine, you will have the same result in the end as me, which is why I am at the advantage while I enjoy and use, you are at the disadvantage while you waste your time and throw aside things like a baby. What Nation are you from culturally? Are you an Australian like VisuddhiRaptor?

Offline francis

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2017, 01:17:13 am »
I apologize for any abuse, I did not intend to abuse you by talking about what I understand as the well-known history of thought considered Buddhist and majority Buddhist.

The Artis Magistra,

Nice try there with your passive aggressive apology. How about reaching into the bag of “goodliness” you profess to possess, and practice what you preach for a change.  You quote the Five Dhyani Buddha’s, but don’t appear to know anything about them, or their history. I think it’s more than obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Buddhism.  As said previously, what you call "Universal Dharma" or "Open Dharma" is not the Buddha’s Dharma. Get a real (face to face) teacher to instruct you in the difference.

Francis, I don't know what your hostility towards me if for. I am not interested in finding someone to suppress or correct me. If I find someone to say to me "no, you are wrong, there is no Primordial Buddha God Power thing" I will simply feel bad. It does not change what I am saying, what was said before me,how that material is being used by me, and the reality or non-reality of such a thing as I am referring to. All it does, is have a potentially unpleasant encounter between me and some fellow who agrees instead with you. So why would I need that, especially considering that I have you to tell me the same thing as this teacher would tell me? This is a far more comfortable arrangement. You can keep harshly admonishing me and attempting to suppress what I say and my freedom to do as I please, arbitrarily since according to your philosophy it appears you have no advantage over me, we both end up in the exact same experience or non-experience regardless of what I do, the only difference being that I live a life of happy delusions with my Supreme Buddha and imaginary miraclesvand worship and adoration and praise, you live your faithless and honest "realistic" and unpleasant life, and end up getting exactly the same end result as me, which youband VisuddhiRaptor and Rahul and others like ground suggest is simply being dead and gone forever. In fact, I gain by doing whatever I please, the exact same end results or final state that your most respected teachers or historical figures get or got, and I can do it all by laughing and misleading people all the way! Isn't it wonderful francis? So instead of being jealous of how I can freely indulge myself and end up not being as restricted as you (and cranky), why not simply live up to your philosophy and indulge yourself? My philosophy or religion is restrictive though, because I do not believe that we are certainly guaranteed to end up in the same final state, but rather, that I will have to face the results of my conduct, as will you. This puts you at somewhat of an advantage though, since in your philosophy there is no sorting or judgment of good and bad deeds, you can simply be entirelyva rotten and unpleasant person and are immune to repercussions if you escape via death.

I am not interested in anyone admonishing me and telling me that I am delusional and there is no such thing as the Supreme Buddha Power which is actively responsible for all that we contemplate, experience, or decide to do/conduct.

I am fully aware that there is material that can be used to try to say that I am wrong, and ancient material that can be used to try to say that people appeared to believe as I do. Yes, there is much metal to make bullets from, and many stones which can be thrown. I skip doing that because the nature of my philosophy and agenda is such. Your doing so also makes even less sense though, since you and your type of people seem to espouse permanent death and no further experience so no fear or bad results or experience after this life. My actions have a purpose and a cause, even if it is based in delusion, it has an internal logic which makes sense. Your attempts to suppress make little sense though, it should not matter to you what anyone does or says or thinks or what they lie about since they receive the same as you in the end. You have nothing to fight for.

I do want you to continue though, since it gets me to write stuff and furthermore you can continually teach me in detail and using copy pasted quotes or references how exactly I am wrong.

Let me also provide you with more ammunition or encouragement.

If a man came along and said to me "I am Shakyamuni Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, here to teach you" and behind him were an army of monks "and this is my true Sangha" and he continues "I have heard from my top beloved monk, the one you call francis, that you have been saying that ignorant folk in the past have said that there is a Power which brings about experience, and there is no such Power and all things that you see are driven by nothing and don't even exist and no Power is generating experience, there is nothing experienced and nothing moving or existing or appearing to move and exist, and when you die there is no further experience which even now does not exist since there was and is no power generating experience and there is only Nothing now and forever after", I will say "Ok" backing off, escaping this man and his army, and saying then "phew, what a nutbag that was! There is experience and Nothing can not do anything, and so if there is anything appearing and changing there is Something generating it and making it appear to move and change, a Power, and thus that all this sorting and resolving of things has a a place and a cause, as it clearly appears now" and then, thinking of a name for it, I might think, "didn't that Atheistic senseless maniac who approached me earlier call himself Buddha? Haha, it would be funny to name the Power after such a one as claimed there was no cause to experience nor consequence to anything, alternatively, I could call the Power after the name of his chief monk, francis?"

If you are not amused by my story and are furthermore unable to grasp the truth of it, then again I am at an advantage, and you are at a loss, as I received the pleasure, you received nothing or the pain, and I did not even intend to deprive you or hurt you thereby, but according to you and your associates, and your supposed leader you imagine, you will have the same result in the end as me, which is why I am at the advantage while I enjoy and use, you are at the disadvantage while you waste your time and throw aside things like a baby. What Nation are you from culturally? Are you an Australian like VisuddhiRaptor?

Put simply, this is a Buddhist forum, not the The Artis Magistra forum.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:21:10 am by francis, Reason: clarity »
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Pixie

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2017, 02:12:11 am »

Quote from: francis
Put simply, this is a Buddhist forum, not the The Artis Magistra forum.


 :goodpost:
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: For beginners: Avoid imputing Western philosphy onto Buddhism!
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2017, 02:29:42 am »

Quote from: francis
Put simply, this is a Buddhist forum, not the The Artis Magistra forum.


 :goodpost:

You have a problem with me Pixie? Here I am, lets talk it out. You've posted some things which make it appear you've become a little disenchanted with Buddhism but still attracted, you also take the opportunity to digitally kick me when you have a chance or take the opportunity to gang up when you can, not the most endearing of traits, but I want you to be tougher than that, less cowardly, and speak up about your issues with me.

Yes, this is a public forum about Buddhism, and all I post on here is public dialogue regarding Buddhism to the public. Meanwhile, people try to "shut me up" and suppress my writing, when instead they too can write just as much about whatever Buddhist topics interest them, so what is the problem? You don't like what someone is saying? Ignore them, or engage with them and state what your problems are.

It would help everyone to let it be known, instead of just taking swipes. Are you a female? I'm just wondering, your name kind of seemed effeminate to me, nothing wrong with that, I was just curious about the female experience with Buddhism.

I posted about some Female experiences with Buddhist Gurus, not all that pleasant for them, some experiencing years of disturbing troubles, as they tend to with any types of gurus and sects and cults. Maybe nothing has happened to you though, but if you're concealing something which may warn or benefit people, I don't think that is very good either.

So why don't you get a little bold and state your issues, state your philosophy, engage on a forum, state in what areas you disagree with what I propose and suggest, etc. Come on, this is a public forum, we are all rather anonymous here, so have a little fun and use it, talk, get it off your chest, you have a problem with me? Lets talk it out. You don't like me? You prefer VissudhiRaptor and francis instead? Tell me why. I'm curious about it all.

What I don't like though, is you coming along once in a while and taking a swipe, not explaining why, and acting like a wimpy person. There is nothing to be wimpy about.

Come on, all of you, give it a go! Lets talk it out, you have a problem with me, you have a problem with the Dharma I talk about? You have a problem with various developments in history that were or are called Buddhist? Lets discuss.

Tell me why you're a faithless person, I am interested in that too, or in what form your faithlessness arises, like you believe this and this and this, and this is why, but not this, because of this, discuss it. It may be of great benefit to whoever reads it.

This is a FORUM. Forums are for talking, discussing, no need to be a leech and just letting everyone do the talking while you suck off their content production and give very brief nothings.

Go ahead, give! Show your generosity, share your wisdom and knowledge!

 


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