Author Topic: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?  (Read 252 times)

Offline Avrax

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In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« on: October 26, 2017, 05:22:10 pm »
Hello All,

I have been trying to post the following question in thread that discussed this because probably someone has already asked it but I haven't found the thread (using the “search”) that talks about it. So, here is my question.

When the Buddha says that aggregates cease (see below), what does he mean? Do they dissolve, do they just stop arising, or what?

In one instance he makes a difference between clinging and non-clinging aggregates. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html
Do non-clinging aggregates are the one that stay after one is liberated?


"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:55:54 pm by Avrax »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 08:17:46 pm »
When the Buddha says that aggregates cease (see below), what does he mean? Do they dissolve, do they just stop arising, or what?

"Nirodha" ("cease") in another problematic word. See the appendix of this link: A problem with the word "nirodha"

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Payutto_Bhikkhu_Dependent_Origination.htm#problem

Quote
In one instance he makes a difference between clinging and non-clinging aggregates. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html
Do non-clinging aggregates are the one that stay after one is liberated?

Yes. Absolutely. SN 22.48 is an important & valuable sutta. There are so many suttas that describe non-clung-to-aggregates in Nibbana, such as Iti 44; SN 22.53; SN 22.1; MN 38 (end), etc. SN 22.85 describes the ending of the life of an arahant as the ending of the aggregates.

Dependent origination describes the arising of 12 conditions, where, importantly, each condition is polluted by ignorance (refer to SN 22.81, which uses the literal term: "contact with ignorance"). Therefore, when ignorance "ceases" ("avicca-nirodha"), what occurs is those conditions that are aggregates (such as consciousness, nama-rupa, sense bases, contact & feeling) are no longer polluted by ignorance. Again, the end of MN 38; SN 22.53, Iti 44, SN 22.1, SN 22.85, etc, make this absolutely clear.

I think the simile in the Fire Sermon is applicable here. When the fires of greed, hatred & delusion are "extinguished" ("nirodha"), what is left is aggregates & sense spheres that are no longer burning on fire due to ignorance.

Ajahn Buddhadasa suggested the word "quenching" for "nirodha" rather than "cessation". By quenching, he said: "The fire goes out but instead of nothing remaining, what remains is coolness & liberation". Refer to 5. Noble Truth of Dukkha's Quenching (part 1 | part 2), here: http://www.liberationpark.org/audio/tanaj01.htm

In summary, since liberation in Buddhism is liberation of mind (MN 43; MN 29; MN 30, etc), obviously aggregates remain in liberation. Thus, the 3rd noble truth states Nibbana is the cessation of craving rather than the cessation of the aggregates; just as the official definitions of Nibbana say Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion rather than the cessation of the aggregates.

Buddha-Dhamma is visible here & now, verified by the wise. These matters the mind can know, directly.

 :namaste:

« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 08:29:33 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline Avrax

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 10:33:06 pm »
Thank you for your very clear answer VisuddhiRaptor!

I am checking some of the suttas you cites and I am missing something in one:

In Iti 44 there is no mention of aggregates but you state that there is (I think), right? What am I missing? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044

I like this sutta you cite SN 22.53.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Question, do the four aggregates preceding the explanation on the last one "consciousness" are implied by the "..." to end up in the same way as what is described for "consciousness"?

I love SN 22.1.

Question, when you say "SN 22.85 describes the ending of the life of an arahant as the ending of the aggregates" do you mean that clinging aggregates, not aggregates, dissolve after death? The aggregates of an arahant stay after death, right?

Thank you for all these reference. I feel fully satisfied and very appreciative!
Also, thank you for the link on nirodha.

 :namaste:


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 10:59:54 pm »
In Iti 44 there is no mention of aggregates but you state that there is (I think), right? What am I missing? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044

Iti 44 does not specifically refer to five aggregates but it refers to sense faculties & feelings, which are comprised of aggregates:

Quote
His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 11:04:17 pm »
I like this sutta you cite SN 22.53.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Question, do the four aggregates preceding the explanation on the last one "consciousness" are implied by the "..." to end up in the same way as what is described for "consciousness"?

Yes. Each aggregate is described as an object or landing place for consciousness. As I mentioned in the jhana topics, consciousness cannot arise or exist without an object:

Quote
Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for the feeling element … for the perception element … for the volitional formations element … for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness.

When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.53

 :namaste:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 02:46:07 am »
I love SN 22.1.

I like it too. Very clear teaching & instructions.

Quote
Question, when you say "SN 22.85 describes the ending of the life of an arahant as the ending of the aggregates" do you mean that clinging aggregates, not aggregates, dissolve after death? The aggregates of an arahant stay after death, right?

The word "death" ("marana") does not pertain to arahants (because "death" is a "self-view"), which is what SN 22.85 and many other suttas are about. This is why I used the phrase "termination of life". However, returning to the SN 22.85, it states:

Quote
Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?

Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. That which is unsatisfactory has ceased and gone to its end."

Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

SN 22.85




Offline Avrax

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 01:20:47 pm »
Quote
Iti 44 does not specifically refer to five aggregates but it refers to sense faculties & feelings, which are comprised of aggregates:

Oh Got it!

Quote
Each aggregate is described as an object or landing place for consciousness. As I mentioned in the jhana topics, consciousness cannot arise or exist without an object

In the other post you talk about the 8th jhana. Hasn't the 8th jhana no object while consciousness still being there? Or is it thought that consciousness disappears in the 8th jhana?

Quote
The word "death" ("marana") does not pertain to arahants (because "death" is a "self-view"), which is what SN 22.85 and many other suttas are about. This is why I used the phrase "termination of life". However, returning to the SN 22.85, it states.

So when arahants terminate their life do they still have aggregates? The sutta you mention states that aggregates cease. Which ones cease, clinging or non-clinging aggregates?

 :namaste:

Offline ground

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 11:51:03 pm »
Do non-clinging aggregates are the one that stay after one is liberated?

yes the non-clinging aggregates ceaselessly continue to arise in the aftermath of the cessation of the clinging aggregates.  :fu:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 03:23:07 am »
In the other post you talk about the 8th jhana. Hasn't the 8th jhana no object while consciousness still being there? Or is it thought that consciousness disappears in the 8th jhana?
8th jhana consciousness & perception start to fade and 9th jhana (nirodha samapatti) consciousness disappears.

So when arahants terminate their life do they still have aggregates? The sutta you mention states that aggregates cease. Which ones cease, clinging or non-clinging aggregates?
Non-clung-to-aggregates end.

 :namaste:

Offline Avrax

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 01:47:53 pm »
Thank you Ground.

VisuddhiRaptor, what does "Non-clung-to-aggregates end" mean?

All aggregates, even the non-clinging ones, end? Is there a sutta that states that?

Thanks you,

:namaste:

Offline ground

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 12:17:37 am »
All aggregates, even the non-clinging ones, end?
At death yes.

Offline Avrax

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 02:11:51 pm »
Thank you Ground.

Do you have a sutta that states that all aggregates at death end?

Thanks!

Offline ground

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2017, 12:02:30 am »
Thank you Ground.

Do you have a sutta that states that all aggregates at death end?

Thanks!

Hmh ... it is called 'parinibbana'. your questions seems to indicate that your seeking permanence. Go and investigate into the term 'parinibbana' yourself. There is no intention to prove anything on my side or to persuade people not to grasp at permanence.  :fu:

Offline Avrax

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2017, 12:30:44 am »
Oh, I didn't think you were trying to prove a point. I just wanted to find the sutta that explains that. That's all.

 :namaste:


Offline ground

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Re: In Nibbana Do Aggregates Persist but Don't Arise?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2017, 12:43:42 am »
Oh, I didn't think you were trying to prove a point. I just wanted to find the sutta that explains that. That's all.

 :namaste:
It is a long time since I have studied and discussed the suttas in great detail. Now I have more or less left them behind and forgotten where to find what.  So I advise anyone who wants to know the suttas to investigate for themselves.

 


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